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 Post Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:00 am 
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oslecamo2 wrote:
Wich begs the question, isn't kinda treason for all thinkmancers to don't tell such kind of details to their rulers and warlords? I would surely love to be able to feel what my subordinates feel.


I'm really beginning to wonder about just how much Duty affects Maggie and Thinkamancers in general. Forget using a suggestion on Stanley, Maggie flat out said in one of the first text updates in Bk 2 that she didn't like to mislead Parson "more than necessary" but it was perfectly acceptable to her to refrain from telling her ruler something that might cause him to make her spend juice that she might need later. And now? We learn she's actively concealing from Parson her considerable insights into Erfworld magic and her knowledge that Thinkamancy can do a lot more than he realizes, solely because such information is considered proprietary to some Thinkamancer inner circle. Very interesting.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:02 am 
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    Seeing the gasmask, my first thought was Dream aka Morpheus aka The Sandman

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:12 am 
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    atalex wrote:
    I think you underestimate the importance of a coded thinkagram. To me, it suggests that not only can Charlie hack thinkagrams, but the Thinkamancers know he can hack thinkagrams (or at least, they're worried enough about it to use codes for sensitive info) but they conceal it from everyone else, presumably because if thinkagrams were considered unreliable it would rob them of their most marketable skill.


    The ability to see the G-strings that are conduits for all magic might imply that ~all~ Thinkomancers can hack thinkagrams . They definitely wouldn't want their customers know they had been doing that.

    There's something else. Did Parson inform Wanda that he's coming through the Mk? If not, then Charlie doesn't know it either. Another good reason for Maggie to encrypt her warning.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:14 am 
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    atalex wrote:
    I think you underestimate the importance of a coded thinkagram. To me, it suggests that not only can Charlie hack thinkagrams, but the Thinkamancers know he can hack thinkagrams (or at least, they're worried enough about it to use codes for sensitive info) but they conceal it from everyone else, presumably because if thinkagrams were considered unreliable it would rob them of their most marketable skill.

    Then there's the implication that Maggie seriously expects the leadership of her order to personally intervene in order to protect Parson (from other casters? or from agents in the MK answerable to Charlie?) even if he enters the MK in violation of its neutrality.

    Poor Sizemore. Practically everyone he knows in involved in a conspiracy except him. He's starting to seem like the Ossomer of casters.


    It's not a coded thinkagram, it is writing on her personal string which only thinkamancers and charlie could possibly be able to see. This is a private form of thinkamancer communication that is private and mostly safe and uses no juice and can apparently be done at will on the fly...

    Are the GMTTA some sort of thinkamantic hivemind?

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:21 am 
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    Interesting.... If I'm reading this correctly....

    Magic in erfworld is like an ocean.... all sorts of currents, thermoclimes, depths, pressures, waves, prevailing wings, etc, etc.... and it is largely mysterious and unmapped.

    Thinkamancers communicate and manipulate by sending messages and changes through the ocean.... messages in bottles, artificial reefs to distort currents in observable ways, little toy ships with flags floating along top, etc...

    The problem seems to be that Charlie has a PERFECT, REALTIME MAP of the entire ocean.

    he doesn't necessarily have the juice to 'change' much of the ocean, and he may not have the time or attention span to personally 'observe' the entire ocean every day....

    But if there are any communications or thought patterns he really cares about, he can examine them freely, with little or no limitations.

    What is also interesting about all this is that apparently, if a 'mere' thinkamancer is familiar with a particular 'region' of the ocean, they can do exactly the same thing as charlie within that region.... such as 'observing' the outer thoughts of any thinkamancer apprentices they're familiar with....

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:24 am 
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    another interesting problem:
    "Thinkamancers were aware of certain magical truths for which, quite intentionally, there were no words in Language."

    does this imply that thinkamancers somehow control language, or that some other power is manipulating language for the benefit of thinkamancers?

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:33 am 
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    atalex wrote:
    I'm really beginning to wonder about just how much Duty affects Maggie and Thinkamancers in general. Forget using a suggestion on Stanley, Maggie flat out said in one of the first text updates in Bk 2 that she didn't like to mislead Parson "more than necessary" but it was perfectly acceptable to her to refrain from telling her ruler something that might cause him to make her spend juice that she might need later. And now? We learn she's actively concealing from Parson her considerable insights into Erfworld magic and her knowledge that Thinkamancy can do a lot more than he realizes, solely because such information is considered proprietary to some Thinkamancer inner circle. Very interesting.


    I don't think it's just thinkmancers, all casters seem to be more able for independent action and tought than other units.

    -Wanda basically led her own original kingdom to destruction.
    -We have Sizemore the pacifist Dirtmancer wich tries to avoid conflict as much as possible, while usually all other troops lust for battle.
    -We have Don really worried that his moneymancer isn't happy with the current turn of events (while not really caring that he sent Caesar in a suicide mission).
    -We have the whole Magic Kingdom as an independent organization pulling strings from behind the scenes. Is there such thing as a warlord kingdom? Not really.

    My personal bet it's that Erfworld has "mental stats" to go along with physical stats. Mancers have the highest mental stats around and are thus able to outthink everybody else, wich gives them the benefit of bending and stretching their Duty.

    This also explains why Stanley is Stanley. He was not born a warlord or prince or mancer, but a lowly infantry dude, wich from what we've seen are quite-simple minded. Aka low mental stats, as they're born to serve as simple cannon fodder. Stanley has since raised trough the ranks, but his low mental stats from a lowly infantry dude remain.

    Do we know of any other ruler with such humble beginnings? Not really. They were all born as warlords or princes, already with average-good mental stats.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:39 am 
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    Nice update!

    So.. perhaps this is how Charlie was able to hack the Eyebooks.

    Once Maggie had made contact with Charlie directly, he was then able to 'hack' her um.. G-String and tap into the Eyebook network.

    If Maggie is aware that Charlie can eavesdrop on her Thinkagrams (assuming that truly is one of the Arkendish's abilities) or at least aware that she has been compromised, why hasn't her sense of Duty had her tell Parson?

    Perhaps there is a greater need that supercedes Loyalty or Duty to ones on side or at least there is a great justification for not doing so. If there is, this would not be the first we have seen: Wanda's loyalty to Fate. Vurp's direct lying to Parson about the death of King Saline IV. I guess if a unit can justify their actions they can get around the "Disregard orders: Disband" rule.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:42 am 
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    Yes, they have certain control over Language, since it conveys concepts derived from thought.

    The only other overlord with the potential for the same humble beginnings is Charlie. This would bring in ANOTHER real world reference onto him, which is "Flowers for Algernon" where Charlie, a dumb but happy man gains intelligence through an undescribed technique, he bonds with a lab rat that underwent a similar experiment and finds that being smart brings him nothing but woe and his mental gains are also distressingly temporary.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:44 am 
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    joosy wrote:
    Perhaps there is a greater need that supercedes Loyalty or Duty to ones on side or at least there is a great justification for not doing so. If there is, this would not be the first we have seen: Wanda's loyalty to Fate. Vurp's direct lying to Parson about the death of King Saline IV. I guess if a unit can justify their actions they can get around the "Disregard orders: Disband" rule.


    We're not really sure if allied tribes are subject to that rule. They have their own hobgobwin leader, so I don't believe they can be disbanded like that. They're still an allied side, not your own units.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:38 am 
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    fjolnir wrote:
    Yes, they have certain control over Language, since it conveys concepts derived from thought.


    I read that more as:

    Because thinkamancers communicate certain concepts via thinkamancy and not the spoken word, and noone has ever tried to communicate the idea to a non-thinkamancer, then there has never been a need to devise a spoken word to represent the concept.

    Its not so much that they've controlled anything, just its never been discussed verbally. A bit like if you and I came up with a dance move, but we never give it a name. So long as we dont talk about it, or try to explain it to a person verbally, it remains a concept outside of language.

    This is a really shitty example, but more or less the right idea.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:49 am 
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    oslecamo2 wrote:
    joosy wrote:
    Perhaps there is a greater need that supercedes Loyalty or Duty to ones on side or at least there is a great justification for not doing so. If there is, this would not be the first we have seen: Wanda's loyalty to Fate. Vurp's direct lying to Parson about the death of King Saline IV. I guess if a unit can justify their actions they can get around the "Disregard orders: Disband" rule.


    We're not really sure if allied tribes are subject to that rule. They have their own hobgobwin leader, so I don't believe they can be disbanded like that. They're still an allied side, not your own units.


    I believe reading in some text update that Duty and Loyalty are unknowable stats. It is possible that Wanda has a low Loyalty, but a high duty.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:01 am 
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    Just a maybe, but the bottom-left corner... Jean Grey?

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:19 am 
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    I think the reason Thinkamancers have concepts which have no equivalent word in Language, is because these concepts are only understandable to someone capable of Thinkamancy. As such, since Thinkamancers probably commune mentally with each other, there was never a need to devise a word, because explaining it in words would be like explaining colors to a blind man.

    And while it is true that casters show much more flexibility than other units, they are still limited by Duty and Loyalty. Note that Maggie is communicating with GMTTA using a method which consumes no juice, since Duty dictates she conserve er juice for her side. Even though she freely admits that the G-string method is certainly observable by Charlie (if not understandable).

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:24 am 
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    Hmm. Could Charlie "be" the Arkendish itself?

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:37 am 
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    Smoker wrote:
    ftl wrote:
    ...oh, wait. I just reread it, and thoughout, Maggie calls him "it" . Presumably, if he were a thinkamancer, Maggie would know and call him "he" (or "she").


    Fantastic pickup. :) Charlie is known to have a male voice, so "it" is either an insult, or a clue that Maggie knows something...

    Edit: Hang on a second:
    Would that make sense as: That reason called himself, "Charlie." ..?
    Maybe it's nothing at all, just grammar.


    Yep, it's just grammar. And it's the narrator calling him "it", not Maggie (the PoV is omniscient third person, not first person). But that won't stop the tin foil hats.


    Last edited by DoctorJest on Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:38 am 
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    throwingrocks wrote:
    Hmm. Could Charlie "be" the Arkendish itself?


    Ah geeze not this again.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:38 am 
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    Glowface wrote:
    Just a maybe, but the bottom-left corner... Jean Grey?

    I was thinking that it might actually be Bunny... Don King's thinkamancer in Transylvito. Of course, that depends on whether the thinkamancers in the thought bubbles are the Great Minds that Think Alike in the Temple of the Thinkamancers, or if they are just a random assortment of Thinkamancers who might be plucking Maggie's G-String.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:43 am 
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    On Charlie's side, a lot of things would still be possible. For example, he could be a FORMER member of the thinkamancer fraternity. A traitor, perhaps. Or maybe assumed dead by the rest of the group.
    Maybe he fell into a volcano and was hedously disfigured, only kept alived by the machinery of the Arkendish...
    He could be Charles Xavier, of course. :)

    Or, as we all know, he could be Paron from the future with amnesia, of course. :D

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     Post Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:50 am 
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    Charlie is the antithesis of the perspective of miss Janis...and the Great Minds Who Think Alike. Beyond that, who he is does not matter.
    They all together conspired to bring Parson Gotti, Lord Hamster to this world, to create a nation that could exist without war.
    Charlie exists solely because of war. He can only pay upkeep on his massive array of archons because all others are constantly fighting one another, hiring him. One day his forces will be sufficient to conquer everything in a single turn. It is that day that the conspiracy exists to prevent. And there is nothing more terrifying to him than decrypted, for they have no upkeep. That is his doom.
    Parson and Wanda are the keys. They are both together in one place now.

    Charlie knows.
    I know.

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