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 Post Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 8:34 pm 
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Smoker wrote:
Also: Attacking the MK is an excellent way to commit suicide. If you can imagine all those casters geared up for war, in dozens of trimancer links, protected by all kinds of foolamancy and backed up by dolls, golems and uncroaked.. plus all the abilities/units we dont know about.. No sane side would take that on, and any insane side that did would lose.


I find myself wondering if a side with all the arkentools united could make a successful bid.

Also, I wonder if it's mere coincidence that all three of the known arkentools seem to provide a mechanism for making a side revenue neutral, without violence.

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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:12 pm 
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    nth wrote:
    Smoker wrote:
    Also: Attacking the MK is an excellent way to commit suicide. If you can imagine all those casters geared up for war, in dozens of trimancer links, protected by all kinds of foolamancy and backed up by dolls, golems and uncroaked.. plus all the abilities/units we dont know about.. No sane side would take that on, and any insane side that did would lose.


    I find myself wondering if a side with all the arkentools united could make a successful bid..


    Quite possible, especially given that there is a 4th Arkentool out there somewhere. In actual fact, I've got this terrible feeling that before Erfworld is done, there will be an attack on the MK. It would make for a very epic battle, but would probably call for some game-equaling hack (Let's make EVERYONE a slayer!) that makes me cringe.

    As it stands now, we have been shown the power of casters relative to the power of armies, and so an army of casters is pretty much the most unbeatable thing imaginable in erfworld right now.

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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:44 pm 
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    The Magic Kingdom is magic.
    The Magic Kingdom is outside the game.
    The Magic Kingdom is home to many unaligned magic users.
    The many magic users in the magic kingdom are able to exist side by side without fighting
    1) they do not fight amongst themselves
    2) they do not fight unaligned(barbarian) against visiting aligned units
    3) they do not fight aligned unit to aligned unit
    The magic users in the magic kingdom do not need to pay upkeep to keep existing. They are outside the game.

    The Magic Kingdom is not a side. And cannot be a side due to the many special rules that apply to it.

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     Post Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:54 pm 
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    RichMan wrote:
    The magic users in the magic kingdom do not need to pay upkeep to keep existing. They are outside the game.

    [citation needed]

    We know that the Magic Kingdom doesn't use shmuckers among its residents, and yet casters that live there full-time frequently hire their services out to sides on Erfworld proper -- for shmuckers . Why would they work for a currency that was useless to them? I'd bet that they still need to pay their own upkeep out of their purse, like any other barbarian.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:10 am 
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    RichMan wrote:
    The Magic Kingdom is magic.

    So is everything else in Erfworld. Love is just natural Thinkamancy afterall.

    Quote:
    The Magic Kingdom is outside the game.

    Dubious. It has been depicted as a set of islands. Presumably in somewhat isolated location.

    Quote:
    The Magic Kingdom is home to many unaligned magic users.

    Sounds like good recruiting of those units most likely to grow disaffected with their side or be spared/captured by conquerors.

    Quote:
    The many magic users in the magic kingdom are able to exist side by side without fighting
    1) they do not fight amongst themselves
    2) they do not fight unaligned(barbarian) against visiting aligned units
    3) they do not fight aligned unit to aligned unit

    They seemed ready to lay down the law immediately when Parson showed up. I think they have no qualms against fighting (pacifists are quite rare in Erfworld!), though they are smart enough to obey the house rules of the kingdom that they abide in. I imagine no caster wants to get banned from the Magic Kingdom.

    Quote:
    The magic users in the magic kingdom do not need to pay upkeep to keep existing. They are outside the game.

    They have sold services for schmuckers. Presumably those schmuckers are used to pay upkeep. If upkeep was not required that's something that likely would have been mentioned in a big neon sign.

    Quote:
    The Magic Kingdom is not a side. And cannot be a side due to the many special rules that apply to it.

    They are a peculiar side, just as peculiar as Charlescomm's side due to their usage of artifacts (portals), non-standard strategy and choice of units to pop (or not pop at all). Really they are very similar to Charlescomm but rather than being utterly secluded and secretive, they make their game from being totally open and inviting. They are antithetical to Charlescomm. Each with some unique power and outlooks, very powerful, and completely opposed to one another.

    Native Jovian is right. Citations needed, for all your dubious claims.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 12:33 am 
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    RichMan wrote:
    The magic users in the magic kingdom do not need to pay upkeep to keep existing. They are outside the game.

    The Magic Kingdom is not a side. And cannot be a side due to the many special rules that apply to it.


    In Erf, units need to maintain upkeep each turn. Even wild 'animals'. If they don't maintain upkeep by foraging or having rations pop via schmuckers, then they de-pop/disband next turn. In the Magic Kingdom the casters grow their own food and maintain their own type of currency (rands). Whether the mechanics for Rands is the same as Schmuckers is the same has yet to be seen.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:14 am 
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    On checking, I could be totally wrong. The MagicKingdom could just be a "normal" kingdom full of barbarians looking to hire out as mercenaries.


    Units cannot move from game world hex to game world hex off turn.
    http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -06-09.jpg
    I thought units can move to and from the Magic Kingdom off turn. (Wanda returning to GK at the beginning, Sizemore's various visits with encouragement to "return before our turn starts").
    Hmm, here they move on turn: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F011.jpg

    Stacks without a leader are forced to auto-attack when in contact with units from non-allied capitals. With a warlord the fight [c]an be directed or the group can choose not to initiate the fight.
    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F040a.jpg
    So any normal aligned unit in the Magic Kingdom (casters are not usually leaders) would be forced into combat with any other unit it meets (unaligned units, the majority of the magic kingdom would count as barbarians). Yet they do not fight.
    Hmm, http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F084a.jpg
    Casters are commanders. So my statement about avoiding combat is Wrong. As commanders they could choose not to fight.


    (( off note: here are some of the air-ground combat rules
    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F046a.jpg
    ))

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:17 am 
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    Casters can lead but do not give a leadership bonus with the exception of units unique to their discipline (uncroaked/decrypted, golems, etc.)

    It has been established that you can move off-turn to and from the Magic kingdom. The entire area (island?) appears to count as one hex.

    Also remember the limitation of movement off-turn is that you cannot cross a hex boundary off-turn. The portals allow you to bypass the hex boundary so you can move in and out of portals freely off-turn.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:18 am 
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    Ditto wrote:
    The PWL is a weapon. Folks have called it a nuke, and drawn parallels to the Pax Romana.

    If you have multiple nukes, the best case scenario for peace is a stalemate due to Mutually Assured Destruction - in which, as friend computer famously said, the only winning move is not to play.

    In Erfworld, MAD is not an option. "If you ruthlessly and brilliantly attack us, then we'll do the same! So... let's both not do that and glare acros the iron curtain!" Can't happen.

    Whether you spread PWLs around the world at each corner of the erfglobe or not, multiple PWLs would accelerate entropy and bring war to a new level, not cause an end to it by massive outbursts of diplomacy. Parson has said he doesn't like to fight, but once he's stuck with a situation, he always plays to his fullest and goes for the kill. He doesn't wimp out and do-nothing to lose on purpose and thus excuse him from having to make choices.
    On the other hand, multiple PWL who all would rather live in peace but who will all bring destructive vengeance upon any who force them into war... That may be just as good a deterrent as MAD.

    Think about it! Parson, with no incentive to war, can make the perfect peace.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:41 am 
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    Smoker wrote:
    Quite possible, especially given that there is a 4th Arkentool out there somewhere. In actual fact, I've got this terrible feeling that before Erfworld is done, there will be an attack on the MK. It would make for a very epic battle, but would probably call for some game-equaling hack (Let's make EVERYONE a slayer!) that makes me cringe.

    As it stands now, we have been shown the power of casters relative to the power of armies, and so an army of casters is pretty much the most unbeatable thing imaginable in erfworld right now.
    My own tin foil theory (expressed way back) is that a four caster link, thought to be impossible, will be combined with the fact that there are four Arkentools. We already have two 'tools owned by a single Side. And that Side has as its imperative the gathering of all 'tools, and it looks as though that imperative will be followed through. Once the fourth 'tool is found, some epic link of all four Arckentools will be formed, and the end of the story will be related.

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    So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:32 am 
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    Oberon wrote:
    Smoker wrote:
    Quite possible, especially given that there is a 4th Arkentool out there somewhere. In actual fact, I've got this terrible feeling that before Erfworld is done, there will be an attack on the MK. It would make for a very epic battle, but would probably call for some game-equaling hack (Let's make EVERYONE a slayer!) that makes me cringe.

    As it stands now, we have been shown the power of casters relative to the power of armies, and so an army of casters is pretty much the most unbeatable thing imaginable in erfworld right now.
    My own tin foil theory (expressed way back) is that a four caster link, thought to be impossible, will be combined with the fact that there are four Arkentools. We already have two 'tools owned by a single Side. And that Side has as its imperative the gathering of all 'tools, and it looks as though that imperative will be followed through. Once the fourth 'tool is found, some epic link of all four Arckentools will be formed, and the end of the story will be related.


    That's possible and I like that theory, since one of the tools is thinkamancy related (thinkamancy required to link)

    Quote:
    casters are not usually leaders


    well, this sentence totally killed your theory :(

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    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:49 am 
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    Quote:
    Quote:
    Ditto wrote:
    The PWL is a weapon. Folks have called it a nuke, and drawn parallels to the Pax Romana.

    If you have multiple nukes, the best case scenario for peace is a stalemate due to Mutually Assured Destruction - in which, as friend computer famously said, the only winning move is not to play.

    In Erfworld, MAD is not an option. "If you ruthlessly and brilliantly attack us, then we'll do the same! So... let's both not do that and glare acros the iron curtain!" Can't happen.

    Whether you spread PWLs around the world at each corner of the erfglobe or not, multiple PWLs would accelerate entropy and bring war to a new level, not cause an end to it by massive outbursts of diplomacy. Parson has said he doesn't like to fight, but once he's stuck with a situation, he always plays to his fullest and goes for the kill. He doesn't wimp out and do-nothing to lose on purpose and thus excuse him from having to make choices.
    On the other hand, multiple PWL who all would rather live in peace but who will all bring destructive vengeance upon any who force them into war... That may be just as good a deterrent as MAD.

    Think about it! Parson, with no incentive to war, can make the perfect peace.

    PWLs don't have the choice to say 'Don't make me fight, or I'll vengeance y'all!' to their own side. And to other sides, it's a pointless bluff until it's demonstrated on the field of battle. At which point, the newly PWL'd side will say 'Gee, that was awesome! Let's do that again!'. They're really not much use as a threat, only when applied.

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    The question is getting Wanda to honor the offer. They could keep going back and forth: offer, honor, offer, honor....
    Sorry*.
    *no I'm not

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:50 pm 
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    Many of our theories about the MK are based on the assumption that the Titans created the MK island, the portals and whatever game rules surround them.

    It is not impossible that the MK was established by barbarian casters, or even a side. It is also not impossible that the MK creates the portals for each side.

    The biggest question I see here, is how loyal are casters to the MK? If it's not a side, and it just operates on the barbarian turn, then its only by agreement (read: convention) that they help each other out. The side-bound casters, therefore, only abide the rules of the MK as a way of mutual benefit. Mutual benefit is still a powerful motivator in protecting the MK, but it is not absolute, and it becomes... unstable.. when you hypothesise about "sides vs the MK".

    (Also, when talking about which turn they operate on, this becomes almost a useless point, considering the island is presumably so far removed from the Erfworld mainland that it is not in anyone's battlespace. That and the fact that Casters only seem to leave the MK after they have allied with a side means their natural turn order is irrelevant, except in the case where the casters leave the MK un-allied in order to invade the mainland, which is a reversal of what's being discussed. For this reason, I strongly doubt turn order will be the give-away piece of info, but it might.)

    If the MK is a side, or some kind of sub-side that operates within the bounds of an actual sides loyalty, then its quite reasonable to assume the casters as a whole are all loyal to the MK (at least to a sufficient degree) and will do what is needed in order to protect it.

    Thirdly, and I believe least likely of all, is that the MK is treated like a natural ally. It's an option, but an ugly one, and would vary too much from Canon (to-date) to be taken seriously even as speculation.

    So again, we just dont know, but considering the possibilities above, I still maintain that it is highly likely that the MK would mash any would-be invaders into a thick soup, and feed them to a twoll.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:55 pm 
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    Ditto wrote:
    Quote:
    Quote:
    Ditto wrote:
    The PWL is a weapon. Folks have called it a nuke, and drawn parallels to the Pax Romana.

    If you have multiple nukes, the best case scenario for peace is a stalemate due to Mutually Assured Destruction - in which, as friend computer famously said, the only winning move is not to play.

    In Erfworld, MAD is not an option. "If you ruthlessly and brilliantly attack us, then we'll do the same! So... let's both not do that and glare acros the iron curtain!" Can't happen.

    Whether you spread PWLs around the world at each corner of the erfglobe or not, multiple PWLs would accelerate entropy and bring war to a new level, not cause an end to it by massive outbursts of diplomacy. Parson has said he doesn't like to fight, but once he's stuck with a situation, he always plays to his fullest and goes for the kill. He doesn't wimp out and do-nothing to lose on purpose and thus excuse him from having to make choices.
    On the other hand, multiple PWL who all would rather live in peace but who will all bring destructive vengeance upon any who force them into war... That may be just as good a deterrent as MAD.

    Think about it! Parson, with no incentive to war, can make the perfect peace.

    PWLs don't have the choice to say 'Don't make me fight, or I'll vengeance y'all!' to their own side. And to other sides, it's a pointless bluff until it's demonstrated on the field of battle. At which point, the newly PWL'd side will say 'Gee, that was awesome! Let's do that again!'. They're really not much use as a threat, only when applied.


    I agree. PWL's will always be made by their Rulers to fight, and if they were not, there is no proof that they are PWL's. If Banhammer had a PWL as a deterrent to other sides, he'd still have to use it now and again just to demonstrate its powers.

    Its the Rulers who are the key here. They need to be educated, or eliminated.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:19 pm 
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    Ditto wrote:
    'Don't make me fight, or I'll vengeance y'all!'

    Using this sentence in earnest is now on my bucket list.

    Smoker wrote:
    So again, we just dont know, but considering the possibilities above, I still maintain that it is highly likely that the MK would mash any would-be invaders into a thick soup, and feed them to a twoll.

    Well, if the pliers do decrypt casters with full juice and the ability to cast...

    But yes, aside from the pliers, a sneak attack/sudden assault, or actions that subvert the social structure of the MK, I think a straight-up attack would be soundly rebuffed... and even a sneak attack or surprise attack might be foiled by Marie.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:28 pm 
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    Though if Parson gets a free pass to go through Portal Park to get to Spacerock, he could later use that to either foment a civil war in Magic Kingdom (Janis and her supporters against those who think she violated everything MK holds dear by letting a warlord use Portal Park as an instrument of war), or to do to MK what he did to Charlie -- make everyone think the Magic Kingdom is helping Parson and are really a bunch of toolists. (Or he could do both.) Either way, I think Parson can do some serious damage to MK without sending a single piece.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:46 pm 
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    First about the "perfect warlord" spell. Its a name there is not one perfect warlord, otherwise they Wanda wouldn't have looked for a someone she simply would have found him. And don't forget those requirements of things like air and speaks Language; the best possible warlord in situation differs. A side with no pressing threat that solely relies on fliers might prefer warlord is great at maximizing production over one that is a master at tunnel battles, but in BfGK GK would have prefered a tunnel master.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:17 pm 
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    Why is it I hear Rafiki's (the baboon from Lion King) voice every time I read Marie's text...

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:25 pm 
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    Again, Predictamancy does not appear to be able to change events. Once something is Predicted, that's it, it's going to happen. If Marie Predicts an attacking force hitting and conquering the Magic Kingdom...it seems like there ain't boop any of them can do about it. I question its usefulness, actually, given this.

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     Post Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 9:27 pm 
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    Perhaps they could make the best of it? Suppose she predicts that "a massive enemy force will attack and conquer the MK." The casters could all evacuate and go elsewhere, hence 1) allowing said conquest to occur while 2) preserving themselves (sort of).

    I doubt her Predictions are super-detailed; they're probably more general statements. And those can be interpreted rather liberally - see the "Erfworld Matrix" game for examples.

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