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 Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:16 pm 
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fjolnir wrote:
The city lacks tunnels, but not a dungeon. I think it's in Trem's description of the city, here.
http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_Text_25
Spacerock had dungeons, but no tunnel zone at all. Instead, it had an unusually ornate and well-defended Garrison. Its outer structure was not merely a wall, but a full twelve-story palace complex of rooms and chambers.

Honestly I missed this the first few readthroughs of this particular update, I'm posting it here because it's fairly solid gold for funny.
Spoiler: show
It was not a Jetstone design, but it suited. Spacerock the City had first been the capital of Spacerock the Side, ruled by a man who chose to call himself Spacerock the King. Jetstone warred long with him, and finally defeated Spacerock the King at the historic Spacerock the Battle. And though Jetstone retained its original capital site, the capital of the side had been moved to this much grander city.



That is funny. It also means that Jetstone might be able retreat from this city and take their original capital site.
I'm almost expecting this to occur. Either Trem or his father heading out before either one is croaked so that their side isn't completely destroyed.
Tre mentioned back in the summer updates {http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2009-archive/?px=%2FE040_Cloudbreaker.jpg} that if they used a relay system they can cheat move much like how Stanley is using his dragons.

I wonder though if Stately can harvest Spacerock as he is leaving it and his original capital just automatically becoming the capital site. That way he robs Wanda of any new decrypted troops.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:29 pm 
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    fjolnir wrote:
    The city lacks tunnels, but not a dungeon. I think it's in Trem's description of the city, here.
    http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_Text_25
    Spacerock had dungeons, but no tunnel zone at all. Instead, it had an unusually ornate and well-defended Garrison. Its outer structure was not merely a wall, but a full twelve-story palace complex of rooms and chambers.

    Honestly I missed this the first few readthroughs of this particular update, I'm posting it here because it's fairly solid gold for funny.
    Spoiler: show
    It was not a Jetstone design, but it suited. Spacerock the City had first been the capital of Spacerock the Side, ruled by a man who chose to call himself Spacerock the King. Jetstone warred long with him, and finally defeated Spacerock the King at the historic Spacerock the Battle. And though Jetstone retained its original capital site, the capital of the side had been moved to this much grander city.



    Whoa....Whoa! I don't remember, does the invading army need to take over two garrison zones or all of them to control a city?

    Since they don't have tunnels, how much do you want to bet that the JS dungeon zone is empty? Or that Parson believes they are, and will be proved disastrously wrong?

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:39 pm 
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    SomeUnregisteredPunk wrote:
    fjolnir wrote:
    The city lacks tunnels, but not a dungeon. I think it's in Trem's description of the city, here.
    http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_Text_25
    Spacerock had dungeons, but no tunnel zone at all. Instead, it had an unusually ornate and well-defended Garrison. Its outer structure was not merely a wall, but a full twelve-story palace complex of rooms and chambers.

    Honestly I missed this the first few readthroughs of this particular update, I'm posting it here because it's fairly solid gold for funny.
    Spoiler: show
    It was not a Jetstone design, but it suited. Spacerock the City had first been the capital of Spacerock the Side, ruled by a man who chose to call himself Spacerock the King. Jetstone warred long with him, and finally defeated Spacerock the King at the historic Spacerock the Battle. And though Jetstone retained its original capital site, the capital of the side had been moved to this much grander city.



    That is funny. It also means that Jetstone might be able retreat from this city and take their original capital site.
    I'm almost expecting this to occur. Either Trem or his father heading out before either one is croaked so that their side isn't completely destroyed.
    Tre mentioned back in the summer updates {http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2009-archive/?px=%2FE040_Cloudbreaker.jpg} that if they used a relay system they can cheat move much like how Stanley is using his dragons.

    I wonder though if Stately can harvest Spacerock as he is leaving it and his original capital just automatically becoming the capital site. That way he robs Wanda of any new decrypted troops.



    That alone always have been the reason why I tought Jetstone would lose the battle of spacerock. From a narative point of view, having that kind of backup probably mean you are going to need it, the only thing there is to know is how they will loose and how they will survive.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:46 pm 
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    Thanks for the explanations, fjolnir & MartitChow. Now I understand.

    But one more question:
    How do they get Wanda and Jack to cross zones? Will their fall get cushioned by their mounts like it happened with Parson?

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:06 pm 
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    Abnaxis wrote:
    Since they don't have tunnels, how much do you want to bet that the JS dungeon zone is empty? Or that Parson believes they are, and will be proved disastrously wrong?


    Yes, because everything we know about Parson would suggest he'd gamble his own life on that assumption without credible evidence to support it.

    ...oh, wait.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:34 pm 
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    Are we sure Jetstone has a dungeon area?

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:42 pm 
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    the_tick_rules wrote:
    Are we sure Jetstone has a dungeon area?


    http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -06-20.png

    Most Level 5 cities were designed with some unique or augmented feature. Some designs emphasized outer walls or tower or tunnel structures, often at the expense of other parts of the city. Spacerock had dungeons, but no tunnel zone at all. Instead, it had an unusually ornate and well-defended Garrison. Its outer structure was not merely a wall, but a full twelve-story palace complex of rooms and chambers.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:14 pm 
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    Abnaxis wrote:
    Whoa....Whoa! I don't remember, does the invading army need to take over two garrison zones or all of them to control a city?

    They need to control the entire garrison. Remember, at the end of the battle for Gobwin Knob, Parson & Co. were down to basically the portal room in the dungeon, but the city did not fall.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 8:02 pm 
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    Squall83 wrote:
    How do they get Wanda and Jack to cross zones? Will their fall get cushioned by their mounts like it happened with Parson?

    Parson was a heavy, so his mount couldn't support him. It went into a 'controlled fall'. Wanda and Jack are not heavy units, so they're going to harvest their mounts and just plummet.
    They have a 1-in-3 chance of dying, a 1-in-3 chance of being incapacitated, and a 1-in-3 chance of taking slight damage. That's why they're both holding healing scrolls - there's a good chance they're going to need them to recover from the fall. (We don't *know* that those are healing scrolls they are reading, but that's the most likely explanation at this point.)

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:17 pm 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    What's a competent foil to Parson: someone who can reliably put spanners in the work of Parson's plans through actual, on-screen clever management of limited resources.

    Ansom was not a foil. We know what the shtick in Book 1 was, the world was cheating Parson. Quite a nice twist then, but you can't keep at that forever, as the end of Book 1 had to show.

    Charlie is not the type of foil I want. Even admitting that Charlie is clever, Charlescomm has such an array of (unspecified) resources at its disposal that it makes anything they may achieve less impressing. When you have all that Charlie has, results come easy.

    Jillian is not the foil either. She's been (so far) more lucky than anything else, and also has, at least for now, enough resources to afford some occasional waste.

    So I was stoked at the possibility that finally Parson may meet something of a match. Will have to wait a bit longer, apparently.


    Spoiler: show
    IIRC, way back in the days of OotS forums, there was a hint that eventually, Parson's gaming buddies were going to be summoned to Erfworld,

    I think what we are seeing is the leading up to this scenario. Parson disrupting things so bad, that all the major players want perfect warlords of their own.


    Oh, And I just wanted to say, because I've seen no sign of anyone else saying it. People rail at Trem for not anticipating this. But Jack didn't anticipate this either, and he spent more time with Parson than anyone else and probably has the greatest insight into lateral thinking of any native erfworlder. And Jack believes his battle plan would have worked too for saving as much Stanley's forces as possible, but it still fell short of Parson's plan.

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    Last edited by Infidel on Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:24 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    Squall83 wrote:
    How do they get Wanda and Jack to cross zones? Will their fall get cushioned by their mounts like it happened with Parson?

    Parson was a heavy, so his mount couldn't support him. It went into a 'controlled fall'. Wanda and Jack are not heavy units, so they're going to harvest their mounts and just plummet.
    They have a 1-in-3 chance of dying, a 1-in-3 chance of being incapacitated, and a 1-in-3 chance of taking slight damage. That's why they're both holding healing scrolls - there's a good chance they're going to need them to recover from the fall. (We don't *know* that those are healing scrolls they are reading, but that's the most likely explanation at this point.)


    Hmm that's an idea. I dunno if they're willing to risk two such critical people in such a fashion. But then again this plan is rather hard to predict isn't it?

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:35 pm 
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    MarbitChow wrote:
    Squall83 wrote:
    How do they get Wanda and Jack to cross zones? Will their fall get cushioned by their mounts like it happened with Parson?

    Parson was a heavy, so his mount couldn't support him. It went into a 'controlled fall'. Wanda and Jack are not heavy units, so they're going to harvest their mounts and just plummet.
    They have a 1-in-3 chance of dying, a 1-in-3 chance of being incapacitated, and a 1-in-3 chance of taking slight damage. That's why they're both holding healing scrolls - there's a good chance they're going to need them to recover from the fall. (We don't *know* that those are healing scrolls they are reading, but that's the most likely explanation at this point.)


    It's not exactly 1-in-3, since the height of the fall is a factor (i.e., you CAN croak from a 3ft fall, but the chance of that might be 1-in-100). This isn't any help to Wanda and Jack, though, since they're at tower height anyway, but it bears mentioning nonetheless.

    As for their scrolls, we know that Jack's is Healomancy, but I suspect that Wanda's isn't -- and that it's the key to her surviving her fall. If it's Luckamancy, for instance, it could effect the odds of the fall and eliminate/drastically reduce the risk of her croaking from it.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:39 pm 
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    Sieggy wrote:
    First, I doubt seriously that Slately would use the jetpack to escape - he would find it far too humiliating, and besides, I doubt if Ace made the straps long enough. And given the cute little wings on the tops of the pack, it's obvious recipient will be Trem. BTW, upon closer examination of the pack, there are no intakes anywhere on it, so it has to be a 'Rocketpack', as it's propulsion system is non-aspirating.


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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:46 pm 
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    Infidel wrote:
    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    What's a competent foil to Parson: someone who can reliably put spanners in the work of Parson's plans through actual, on-screen clever management of limited resources.

    Ansom was not a foil. We know what the shtick in Book 1 was, the world was cheating Parson. Quite a nice twist then, but you can't keep at that forever, as the end of Book 1 had to show.

    Charlie is not the type of foil I want. Even admitting that Charlie is clever, Charlescomm has such an array of (unspecified) resources at its disposal that it makes anything they may achieve less impressing. When you have all that Charlie has, results come easy.

    Jillian is not the foil either. She's been (so far) more lucky than anything else, and also has, at least for now, enough resources to afford some occasional waste.

    So I was stoked at the possibility that finally Parson may meet something of a match. Will have to wait a bit longer, apparently.


    Spoiler: show
    IIRC, way back in the days of OotS forums, there was a hint that eventually, Parson's gaming buddies were going to be summoned to Erfworld,

    I think what we are seeing is the leading up to this scenario. Parson disrupting things so bad, that all the major players want perfect warlords of their own.


    Spoiler: show
    On a related note, that's what I've suspected Charlie is; another person from our world.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:53 pm 
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    There are also unipegataurs in the tower as well. My guess is that Slately and a handful of nobles/casters will escape on them. Hopefully Trem will get to use the Jetpack.. or maybe it will be Ace or one of the other casters as they leave the poor archers to their doom.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 12:23 am 
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    ryanroyce wrote:
    MarbitChow wrote:
    Squall83 wrote:
    How do they get Wanda and Jack to cross zones? Will their fall get cushioned by their mounts like it happened with Parson?

    Parson was a heavy, so his mount couldn't support him. It went into a 'controlled fall'. Wanda and Jack are not heavy units, so they're going to harvest their mounts and just plummet.
    They have a 1-in-3 chance of dying, a 1-in-3 chance of being incapacitated, and a 1-in-3 chance of taking slight damage. That's why they're both holding healing scrolls - there's a good chance they're going to need them to recover from the fall. (We don't *know* that those are healing scrolls they are reading, but that's the most likely explanation at this point.)


    It's not exactly 1-in-3, since the height of the fall is a factor (i.e., you CAN croak from a 3ft fall, but the chance of that might be 1-in-100). This isn't any help to Wanda and Jack, though, since they're at tower height anyway, but it bears mentioning nonetheless.

    As for their scrolls, we know that Jack's is Healomancy, but I suspect that Wanda's isn't -- and that it's the key to her surviving her fall. If it's Luckamancy, for instance, it could effect the odds of the fall and eliminate/drastically reduce the risk of her croaking from it.

    Thanks for the explanations. It's really interesting what kind of ideas Parson has, though it leaves a bad aftertaste that he's violating a Parley truce again. The first time was funny but this time it feels unfair. I hope that Jetstone is not losing the battle just because Tram wanted to do diplomacy.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 2:19 am 
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    Well, Parson did say they would have been screwed if Jetstone decided to kill them off instead of parleying... so if Gk win I guess it will be because of the parley...

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:33 am 
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    ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ wrote:
    Well, Parson did say they would have been screwed if Jetstone decided to kill them off instead of parleying... so if Gk win I guess it will be because of the parley...
    Well, maybe that was only a "time to prepare" issue. It's not like Slately was in any rush to attack either, so Tramennis can't be blamed for not hurrying in a turn-based scenario.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:41 am 
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    Abnaxis wrote:
    Since they don't have tunnels, how much do you want to bet that the JS dungeon zone is empty? Or that Parson believes they are, and will be proved disastrously wrong?

    It should be mostly empty, unless the atrium evacuees went there. Trammenis noted that he'd stash non-essential (ie, non-ranged) units in the atrium, and took the ranged ones up the tower. That's fairly clear indication that there's no military reserves in the dungeon area, beyond perhaps a basic guard and whatever does Jetstone's henchman-work.

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     Post Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:28 am 
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    Althernai wrote:
    Abnaxis wrote:
    Whoa....Whoa! I don't remember, does the invading army need to take over two garrison zones or all of them to control a city?

    They need to control the entire garrison. Remember, at the end of the battle for Gobwin Knob, Parson & Co. were down to basically the portal room in the dungeon, but the city did not fall.


    I thought the portal room was in the tower?

    So the material doesn't actually say explicitly which zones need captured anywhere? Or is it just this inference?


    MarbitChow wrote:
    Parson was a heavy, so his mount couldn't support him. It went into a 'controlled fall'. Wanda and Jack are not heavy units, so they're going to harvest their mounts and just plummet.
    They have a 1-in-3 chance of dying, a 1-in-3 chance of being incapacitated, and a 1-in-3 chance of taking slight damage. That's why they're both holding healing scrolls - there's a good chance they're going to need them to recover from the fall. (We don't *know* that those are healing scrolls they are reading, but that's the most likely explanation at this point.)


    I still say the hobgoblin mounts that fall before them will catch them. 0/3 chance of death versus 1/3 chance of death...

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