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 Post Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:35 pm 
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I kinda hope Slately survives and is forced into barbarism due to losing most of his treasury and being unable to afford the upkeep on his second capital. The "my how the mighty have fallen" moment when he has to pretty much come crawling to Jilly Sue would be freakin priceless.

My predictions: JS loses, Slately and Tram escape, are forced into barbarism due to lack of funds. Due to the fact that they were the driving force behind the RCC and RCC2, strong-arming most of the members of the coalition that are left (Unaroyal being destroyed) Their choices end up being limited to TV and Faq before TV gets embroiled in a Cesare led and Cesare won coup. The subsequent "stuff it you royal ponce" response from TV forces them into Faq's employ.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:36 pm 
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    jah77 wrote:
    First, since Charlescomm wishes the archons dead (offering a bounty), the archons may play a fairly important role here. What that is, I'm not sure.

    Second, Charlescomm knows that Slately might be dead, and that the entire Jetstone side might fall, and that Jestone currently has no heir, and therefore offers Tramennis enough of a "reward" for performing the service of killing the archons.


    i think the price on the archons is adequately explained by Charlie not wanting a) any information to leak, and b) the impression of his fallibility that having them running around "owned" by GK does

    offering JS the shmuckers to appoint an heir - too risky, if its part of a greater plan: a) JS may fall before they complete the task for which the bounty is offered, b) JS may take the money and do something else

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:14 pm 
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    The Archons would have to be dead for Trem to collect, and Trem would have to be alive as well. If both of those conditions are met, than that means JS most likely won . . . Paying the bounty would put JS in a position of owing their next few turns survival to Charlie's largesse, which wouldn't really hurt his reputation THAT much. (I suspect he could use some good PR right about now . . .)

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 3:29 pm 
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    Sieggy wrote:
    The Archons would have to be dead for Trem to collect, and Trem would have to be alive as well. If both of those conditions are met, than that means JS most likely won . . . Paying the bounty would put JS in a position of owing their next few turns survival to Charlie's largesse, which wouldn't really hurt his reputation THAT much. (I suspect he could use some good PR right about now . . .)


    What I'd like to know....does JS get enough money to appoint an heir if all the archons are killed? Or does JS have to get the bonus for a capture as well?

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:14 pm 
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    fjolnir wrote:
    I kinda hope Slately survives and is forced into barbarism due to losing most of his treasury and being unable to afford the upkeep on his second capital.

    I don't think that's actually possible. As long as Slately is alive and not captured, Jetstone (with its own treasury) continues to exist. I'm not sure cities actually cost anything to maintain like units do, and we already know that Jetstone has at least two capital sites (Spacerock is a second capital site that they captured; they probably still have their original Jetstone capital too), so they should be able to designate it as a "back up" capital should Spacerock fall.

    Of course, we don't know what happens to a side that loses its capital. A side doesn't end until its ruler is croaked, but what happens to a capital side with no capital is an interesting question.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:39 pm 
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    Well, we know that Faq is what happens to a side that loses all its cities. King Banhammer was croaked by Wanda, and leadership of Faq instantly shifted to Jillian. Then, when her cities were destroyed - either automatically at the same time as the Capital fell, or because Stanley razed them afterwards - she became a barbarian, despite the fact that she was a Royal and the Ruler of her side.
    If Spacerock is taken, Jetstone's capital might default to another Capital Site owned by the side. Or, alternatively, Jetstone will have no Capital unless they upgrade one of their cities... possibly it might prevent the side from having income, or from popping units, or potentially anything. We don't know. And, worst case scenario, the fall of Spacerock counts as a catastrophic defeat and instantly destroys the rest of Jetstone's cities.
    We don't know what happens to a side that loses its Capital. It should be interesting to see. But we do know that a side can exist without a Capital, so long as it also has a Ruler.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:40 pm 
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    Selexor wrote:
    Well, we know that Faq is what happens to a side that loses all its cities. King Banhammer was croaked by Wanda, and leadership of Faq instantly shifted to Jillian. Then, when her cities were destroyed - either automatically at the same time as the Capital fell, or because Stanley razed them afterwards - she became a barbarian, despite the fact that she was a Royal and the Ruler of her side.
    If Spacerock is taken, Jetstone's capital might default to another Capital Site owned by the side. Or, alternatively, Jetstone will have no Capital unless they upgrade one of their cities... possibly it might prevent the side from having income, or from popping units, or potentially anything. We don't know. And, worst case scenario, the fall of Spacerock counts as a catastrophic defeat and instantly destroys the rest of Jetstone's cities.
    We don't know what happens to a side that loses its Capital. It should be interesting to see. But we do know that a side can exist without a Capital, so long as it also has a Ruler.


    no, i think jillian wasn't Queen until after she re-founded her side. Until then she was just a barbarian princess.

    a side without a capital city, but with a heir is apparently a barbarian side. Unaroyal lost what i think was it's only ruler or heir when queen bee suicided; it still had a capitol, but it disbanded and froze in time anyway.


    Last edited by Krennson on Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:47 pm 
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    Selexor wrote:
    Well, we know that Faq is what happens to a side that loses all its cities. King Banhammer was croaked by Wanda, and leadership of Faq instantly shifted to Jillian. Then, when her cities were destroyed - either automatically at the same time as the Capital fell, or because Stanley razed them afterwards - she became a barbarian, despite the fact that she was a Royal and the Ruler of her side.


    No, not quite. Stanley killed Banhammer, not Wanda. Rulership did not immediately extend to Jillian; she was was operting as a mercenary during that little contretemps. She was turned barbarian with Banhammer's death and Faq's fall. All that has been plainly spelled out in the tale.

    Your prognostications upon Erf's "rules" and thoughts upon possible future events in this tale might bear greater weight it you'd get the facts about previous events correct first. Can't tell the players without a program!

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:51 pm 
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    JustDoug wrote:
    No, not quite. Stanley killed Banhammer, not Wanda


    Stanley razed Faq but Wanda and her uncroaked minions killed Banhammer.

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     Post Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 10:36 pm 
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    JustDoug wrote:
    Stanley killed Banhammer, not Wanda. Rulership did not immediately extend to Jillian; she was was operting as a mercenary during that little contretemps. She was turned barbarian with Banhammer's death and Faq's fall. All that has been plainly spelled out in the tale.


    Bzzzt.

    The Titans in the 7/16/2010 Text Update wrote:

    "You're thinking," said Stanley, "that Wanda set me up. But you're wrong. Because as soon as I started wailing on that city," Stanley snapped his fingers, and a little spark shot off the Arkenhammer and hit the ceiling, "boom. She turned. I'm wasting Faq guys down below, and she's uncroaking 'em and sending 'em into the tower to fight their own guys." He gestured with the hammer several times to indicate how violent and cool the battle was, once causing Zildjian to dodge. "She goes into the tower with a bunch of these guys, and then comes out into the courtyard with even more. Including, you ready?"

    Zerbert nodded that he was ready.

    "The King of Faq himself," grinned Stanley.


    (OK, Joosy said it first, but I'm providing the link)

    JustDoug wrote:
    Your prognostications upon Erf's "rules" and thoughts upon possible future events in this tale might bear greater weight it you'd get the facts about previous events correct first.


    Truly, words to live by.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 4:30 am 
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    Sounds like Wanda killed Banhammer to me. She went into the tower "with a bunch of these guys" (uncroaked) and then "she comes out into the courtyard with even more." And a few lines down, Stanley mentions that bunch included the King of Faq.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:03 am 
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    Mea (minima) culpa. I recalled Stanley's recounting of the fight and Wanda's uncroaking of Banhammer clearly, as it was one of those denouements that stand out as way of showing a character's personality. However, I had it in my head- incorrectly, it turns out- that Stanley had offed the ex-Ruler pre-uncroak and that Wanda had been merely demonstrating her commitment to the new cause with a short-term 'lease majeste'.

    Call it revisionism-by-bad-memory. My apology for calling attention to a non-fact that had no non- to it.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:43 am 
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    valce wrote:
    Trotsky wrote:
    Sieggy wrote:
    That's why he did the Heavy thing... Why is he killing his own dwagons? If only dead units can get onto the ground, why not just let them soak up some tower fire and then fall? Seems like a waste of dwagons. Plus if you had let them die after taking heavy fire it would be less suspicious.

    So... yeah, why does he need the harvesting exploit?


    Because if he relied on fire from the Tower to take them out, first, Wanda or Jack might be croaked. Second, If he relies on Tower fire croaking the Dwagons, they will fall piecemeal, at different times as they each take individual damage. This way, all the Dwagons get croaked at the same time, everyone drops at exactly the same time, everyone hits the ground at the same time, and Wanda only has to do a single decryption instead of doing them as they hit. It's why an amphibious assault force all hits the beach at the same time . . . Think back on why / how the French screwed up at Crecy . . .


    This sort of makes sense. Wanda doesn't have to decrypt them as they fall, but I guess Parson is afraid of ground forces burning corpses before Wanda can get to them.

    Stanley is gonna be pissed :P

    Edit: A conversation with Stanley would be a good narrative trick to explain Parson's actions here.


    As a note, I didn't actually say that. There was a typo in Sieggy's original post that made my quoting go funky so that it didn't cover his text. I have gone back and edited that post and it should be correct now.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 10:57 am 
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    OK, I've just gone back and re-read all of Book 2 and I have a few conclusions and speculations:

    1. Tramennis isn't stupid, but his desire to talk to Parson is making him overconfident (see p44), which unfortunately means the same thing in war.

    a. Tram's knowledge of Parson comes solely thru Charlie. Tram thinks Charlie is hiding something (he is*), but comes to the erroneous conclusion that Charlie is also trying to mislead him (he isn't; we know Parson really is that dangerous).

    b. Nonetheless, the dossier and Charlie's obvious fear make Parson terribly fascinating to Tramennis. He wants to talk to Parson and proceeds to persuade his father to go along with it.

    c. The parley isn't quite as critical as it has been made out to be (i.e., "...they are still a terribly powerful side. Gobwin Knob could eventually crush the coalition, even without the ability to Decrypt our fallen", p43). He doesn't say it necessarily would happen, only that it could. Tram uses this argument to persuade Slately, but even he recognizes Tram's simple desire to talk to Parson.

    d. So, Tramennis is currently holding the Idiot Ball solely because he really, really, really wants to talk to Parson and get down to the bottom of this. This desire will be the doom of Spacerock, but he has no way of knowing that.

    * - Charlie knows Parson's Plan, but (I suspect) he doesn't tell Tram that because it would mean revealing his ability to "wiretap" Thinkagrams. Charlie can only blame himself for this.

    2. OTOH, Parson hasn't won yet. It is equally evident that Parson doesn't know his opponent, either, and he will (or at least should) be getting some nasty surprises of his own.

    a. Janis and (possibly) the Predictomancer will be on the wooden bridge near Portal Park when Parson and Sizemore come through. That should be an interesting conversation!

    b. Parson doesn't like being Chief Warlord and really doesn't like sending hundreds, if not thousands, of people to their deaths. Back when we were still on p43, I thought Tram was going to put Parson in a position to either sacrifice one person (Wanda) or sacrifice hundreds (his troops) and force a Tragic Choice. Obviously this didn't happen, but I still think something like it will be a part of upcoming updates.

    c. Purely from a meta standpoint, if Parson's plan goes off without a hitch, it will be deeply unsatisfying.

    3. SPECULATION: Slately will rocketeer himself out of Spacerock, allowing the Jetstone Side to continue from their original Capital, though in a severely weakened state. Tramennis, however, will be Captured and Turned (hopefully not Croaked and Decrypted) and possibly left as the warlord in charge of the reconstructed Spacerock.

    a. Or Parson starts a new Side! :idea:

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:22 am 
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    ryanroyce wrote:
    * - Charlie knows Parson's Plan, but (I suspect) he doesn't tell Tram that because it would mean revealing his ability to "wiretap" Thinkagrams. Charlie can only blame himself for this.

    Well he really can't. If other sides suddenly knew Charlie can eavesdrop every one of their conversations, they would start taking measures against it, like creating codes or using physical messengers for really important stuff, not to mention loss of confidence, and Charlie's business would be severly hurt. He has all the reasons to keep that ability of the dish a secret.

    And from Charlie's PoV, Jetstone is perfectly expendable. There's other sides to manipulate if this plan fails. His capital isn't directly threatened. There will be other chances to catch Wanda.

    Losing his secrets on wich he bases his business? Now that would be something he couldn't reverse.

    ryanroyce wrote:
    b. Parson doesn't like being Chief Warlord and really doesn't like sending hundreds, if not thousands, of people to their deaths. Back when we were still on p43, I thought Tram was going to put Parson in a position to either sacrifice one person (Wanda) or sacrifice hundreds (his troops) and force a Tragic Choice. Obviously this didn't happen, but I still think something like it will be a part of upcoming updates.

    c. Purely from a meta standpoint, if Parson's plan goes off without a hitch, it will be deeply unsatisfying.


    I must point out that Hamster actually likes being Chief Warlord and sending troops to kill and be killed. That's one of the reasons he was summoned to begin with. Hoe loves leading battles. He won't send mindlessly send troops into a meatgrinder, but if he can gain a good enough advantage by sacrificing his forces, he will do it whitout hesitation. C'mon, he just ordered most of his dwagons to be harvested! Hamster thinks it would be "cool" to walk to one of his own dwagons and kill it with a punch himself!

    Maggie herself confirmed it. Hamster would've never tought of the volcano nuke if deep inside him there wasn't a person willing to burn the world and stand over a mountain of enemy and ally corpses as long as he was victorius in the end.

    What Hamster doesn't like is himself for being like that. He grew up on Earth, where killing is suposed to be a very bad thing. So he spent all his time in war simulations, because he was taught it would be wrong to raise an army and go forth conquering. But now he's in Erfworld, where war is the main currency and he has his personal army. And he loves it deep inside. But his teachings from Earth still linger. Old habits are harder to kill. But he's geting better. When Maggie put him back in charge, Hamster proceeded to tell her to shut up and blindly obey his commands, order his troops to literally start killing themselves for a tactical advantage and will now abuse the trust of the Magic Kingdom.

    If Hamster didn't like what he's doing, he wouldn't be so good at it.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:16 pm 
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    oslecamo2 wrote:
    ryanroyce wrote:
    * - Charlie knows Parson's Plan, but (I suspect) he doesn't tell Tram that because it would mean revealing his ability to "wiretap" Thinkagrams. Charlie can only blame himself for this.

    Well he really can't. If other sides suddenly knew Charlie can eavesdrop every one of their conversations, they would start taking measures against it, like creating codes or using physical messengers for really important stuff, not to mention loss of confidence, and Charlie's business would be severly hurt. He has all the reasons to keep that ability of the dish a secret.

    And from Charlie's PoV, Jetstone is perfectly expendable. There's other sides to manipulate if this plan fails. His capital isn't directly threatened. There will be other chances to catch Wanda.

    Losing his secrets on wich he bases his business? Now that would be something he couldn't reverse.


    This adequately explains Charlie's motives for withholding the specifics of Parson's Plan. However, it does nothing to change the fact that Charlie had the opportunity to tell Tram EXACTLY what Parson's Plan was and didn't take it. That is wholly and completely Charlie's fault. He will find out soon enough whether keeping his secret was worth it or not.

    oslecamo2 wrote:
    ryanroyce wrote:
    b. Parson doesn't like being Chief Warlord and really doesn't like sending hundreds, if not thousands, of people to their deaths. Back when we were still on p43, I thought Tram was going to put Parson in a position to either sacrifice one person (Wanda) or sacrifice hundreds (his troops) and force a Tragic Choice. Obviously this didn't happen, but I still think something like it will be a part of upcoming updates.

    c. Purely from a meta standpoint, if Parson's plan goes off without a hitch, it will be deeply unsatisfying.


    I must point out that Hamster actually likes being Chief Warlord and sending troops to kill and be killed. That's one of the reasons he was summoned to begin with. Hoe loves leading battles. He won't send mindlessly send troops into a meatgrinder, but if he can gain a good enough advantage by sacrificing his forces, he will do it whitout hesitation. C'mon, he just ordered most of his dwagons to be harvested! Hamster thinks it would be "cool" to walk to one of his own dwagons and kill it with a punch himself!

    Maggie herself confirmed it. Hamster would've never tought of the volcano nuke if deep inside him there wasn't a person willing to burn the world and stand over a mountain of enemy and ally corpses as long as he was victorius in the end.

    What Hamster doesn't like is himself for being like that. He grew up on Earth, where killing is suposed to be a very bad thing. So he spent all his time in war simulations, because he was taught it would be wrong to raise an army and go forth conquering. But now he's in Erfworld, where war is the main currency and he has his personal army. And he loves it deep inside. But his teachings from Earth still linger. Old habits are harder to kill. But he's geting better. When Maggie put him back in charge, Hamster proceeded to tell her to shut up and blindly obey his commands, order his troops to literally start killing themselves for a tactical advantage and will now abuse the trust of the Magic Kingdom.

    If Hamster didn't like what he's doing, he wouldn't be so good at it.


    On the contrary, Parson has explicitly said he didn't want to be Chief Warlord and was very angry with Maggie for making it happen anyway. Parson's growth as a character over the course of Book 1 established that he hates the fact that he is very, very, very good at War and no longer wants any part of it. He'll game scenarios with Jack, he'll run odds and (sometimes reluctantly) offer advice for Wanda, but he does NOT want to be Chief Warlord again. Tram could exploit that, should he ever get the chance.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:29 pm 
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    I have a question about the Klog:
    Since it's page 23 and the previous page was 11 and both of them contain an incomplete sentence, will we get to read the pages 12 through 22 eventually?
    Will they be available for everyone?

    Plotwise I don't quite understand how this "eating other units" thing fits into Parsons plan. I mean,
    1. the battle probably won't last until their turn starts and upkeep is needed and
    2. decrypted units don't require upkeep at all.

    Also I don't understand how having the units fall to the ground is of any help, because their ground force has been wiped out already. It would've been more efficient to do this quite a lot earlier, but does it really matter whether the rest of the troops are in the air or on the ground? I mean, the opponent can move freely between these zones anyway.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:20 pm 
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    Squall83 wrote:
    I have a question about the Klog:
    Since it's page 23 and the previous page was 11 and both of them contain an incomplete sentence, will we get to read the pages 12 through 22 eventually?
    Will they be available for everyone?

    Plotwise I don't quite understand how this "eating other units" thing fits into Parsons plan. I mean,
    1. the battle probably won't last until their turn starts and upkeep is needed and
    2. decrypted units don't require upkeep at all.

    Also I don't understand how having the units fall to the ground is of any help, because their ground force has been wiped out already. It would've been more efficient to do this quite a lot earlier, but does it really matter whether the rest of the troops are in the air or on the ground? I mean, the opponent can move freely between these zones anyway.


    Klog: proibably not, we only see pages when they become plot relavent, while it is possible I don't think that we'll see too many pages shoehorned into that range

    How eating other units fits: The harvest mechanic is a OHKO by any unit, they don't want or really need the food, they need to get the dragons on the ground to gain a foothold in the garrison, which they otherwise can't do due to the fact that actually landing in hostile territory requires move and they don't have any to spend.

    As to the lack of ground forces, this is why they were targeting the unlead unit stacks, to take advantage of units with the smallest defensive bonuses. When they all land(crash), wanda is going to do her pliers thing, decrypting all the former JS soldiers as well as any units who died in the fall and probably the dwagons that were harvested, ending up in control of more units than GK started with in the airspace. Which will put them in good position for an attack on a mostly archer laden tower, though they will need to go through the severely weakened JS infantry as well, and each one of those that falls is going to be decrypted as well, the pliers are a snowball effect. As long as the GK forces are even remotely competent, they should be decrypting more than are getting dusted.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:28 pm 
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    Squall83 wrote:
    Plotwise I don't quite understand how this "eating other units" thing fits into Parsons plan. I mean,
    1. the battle probably won't last until their turn starts and upkeep is needed and
    2. decrypted units don't require upkeep at all.

    Also I don't understand how having the units fall to the ground is of any help, because their ground force has been wiped out already. It would've been more efficient to do this quite a lot earlier, but does it really matter whether the rest of the troops are in the air or on the ground? I mean, the opponent can move freely between these zones anyway.

    City Zones are split into six locations. Three zones make up the garrison: the courtyard, tower, and dungeon. Three zones make up the external zones: airspace, outer walls, and tunnels. GK is in the Airspace.

    Under normal rules, an attacking unit cannot cross the zone boundaries when it is not their turn. However, due to gravity, falling objects pass from the airspace to the courtyard. Active units cannot willingly drop through the zone.

    However, since flying mounts cannot carry heavy units, Parson's promotion of the hobgobwins to heavies means that their mounts engage in a controlled landing. Parson first learned of this in one of the summer updates.

    The remaining dwagons do not have heavy riders, so they must be forced to fall some other way. Dead dwagons plummet, and 'harvesting' allows a side that controls the dwagons to auto-kill them instantly and without resistance. This allows for a coordinated fall.

    The fact that these units could be used for rations on the next turn is irrelevant to the current strategy. It is simply an exploit to cross from the Airspace zone to the Courtyard zone when it is not the current side's turn. Once in the courtyard, presumably, Wanda will be able to Decrypt the dwagons, as well as anyone who died in the fall or were killed by the S-Bombs, gain control of the Courtyard zone, and use the dwagon's seige weapons to bring down the Tower zone. I believe that the city does not have a dungeon, so by controlling the Courtyard and destroying the Tower, this would give them control of the city.

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     Post Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:57 pm 
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    The city lacks tunnels, but not a dungeon. I think it's in Trem's description of the city, here.
    http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/LIAB_Text_25
    Spacerock had dungeons, but no tunnel zone at all. Instead, it had an unusually ornate and well-defended Garrison. Its outer structure was not merely a wall, but a full twelve-story palace complex of rooms and chambers.

    Honestly I missed this the first few readthroughs of this particular update, I'm posting it here because it's fairly solid gold for funny.
    Spoiler: show
    It was not a Jetstone design, but it suited. Spacerock the City had first been the capital of Spacerock the Side, ruled by a man who chose to call himself Spacerock the King. Jetstone warred long with him, and finally defeated Spacerock the King at the historic Spacerock the Battle. And though Jetstone retained its original capital site, the capital of the side had been moved to this much grander city.

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