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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:26 pm 
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Hi all,

Long time twoller, first time poster. Been following the discussions and wanted to throw out a few ideas/comments.

hidufel wrote:
Looks like we learned something else... the chief warlord has the ability to countermand his rulers orders in regards to militarily. We can infer then, that parson can override any strategy stanley tries. very interesting.


The ability of a chief warlord not to obey is related to the rules of obedience where they can disobey if they feel it is in the best interest of their Ruler. (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F084a.jpg) "Obedience – Units are compelled to obey orders. Some may disobey if they believe the order goes against higher orders or their Ruler’s interests. Disobedience may cause the unit to disband." While Parson could override the Tool, it would have to be in the Tool's best interests...and who knows if Stanley would disband him for it anyways.

Does anyone else see evacuating the atrium as Trem's fatal mistake? If there are no troops in the Atrium and there is one Goblin Knob troop who has fallen into the Atrium, doesn't GK now control the zone? I'm thinking that if they control this sub-zone of the Garrison in the city they can redeploy their troops to the Atrium without having to use the fall cheat and risk death for their other units. In Book 1 Parson says that "Each zone has its own rules of engagement, but they’re all considered parts of the city, so we can deploy and redeploy units without expending move." (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F098a.jpg). I'm thinking that this would apply to both the defenders and other sides and since the big restriction from moving off-turn is expending move, they could just redeploy to a different part of the City that they control. Trem's rationale for protecting his troops could lead to giving up the zone and a foothold in the garrison since he's not aware of the fall cheat.

If GK controls the Atrium, Wanda and the other troops could likely redeploy and then land if they want (take-offs and landings are possible off-turn in hex/city you control...wonder if that extends to sub-zones within a city).

Additionally, "Once units are in any part of the garrison, they can attack any other part of the garrison," so theoretically I think they could attack the tower from the atrium this turn...

Finally, I was thinking was that perhaps the title "It's raining men" actually hinted at soldiers falling out of the tower because the tower structure has been destroyed and is falling. Perhaps purple dragon sonic attack, dirtamancy traps or something else can hit the base of the tower in a stroke of Ender's game type strategy. If GK can attack the tower since they are in the garrison, they could conceivably use siege from the Atrium, or get a foothold in the tower then launch siege at its supports or maybe they don't even have to attack the tower itself as they could destroy supporting structures from the atrium (the atrium appears to surround the tower (http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -11-13.jpg). If that happened and I were in the tower I'd really like to have a jet pack. :)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:30 pm 
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    effataigus wrote:
    Weird. This is the first instance I can think of where Parson knows about a rule or ability that the readers haven't been presented (or perhaps I was too dense to pick up on it). I hope "promote to heavy" is just a weird way of phrasing his invokation of this rule to overload the dwagons with food or something:


    It's possible to spend schmuckers to upgrade units off-turn. So, the hobgobwins have an unlockable upgrade which makes them heavies. It's likely that being upgraded to heavy is special to hobbos.

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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:33 pm 
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    valce wrote:
    hidufel wrote:
    Looks like we learned something else... the chief warlord has the ability to countermand his rulers orders in regards to militarily. We can infer then, that parson can override any strategy stanley tries. very interesting.


    I don't think that was the implication -- I believe Tram was just trying to point out that according to Jetstone tradition the Chief Warlord has the final say in matters of war. I doubt there's a mechanic that makes the CWL's orders take higher priority than the Ruler's on every Side. IIRC in one of Slately's text updates he was thinking along the same lines (that Jetstone tradition means Tram is fully in charge of military operations).

    The Ruler has absolute power in pretty much every regard, I don't see why he wouldn't get the last say in orders.


    That's the impression I get -- Slately can override his Chief Warlord's tactical orders, but in Jetstone such things are Simply Not Done.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:54 pm 
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    I like that parson is exploiting the fact that he can spend ridiculous amounts of money on stupid things to good effect.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:59 pm 
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    fjolnir wrote:
    I like that parson is exploiting the fact that he can spend ridiculous amounts of money on stupid things to good effect.


    Haha, good point. But the fact that he's able to do it without worrying about treasury...GK is damn rich lol. Maybe they should go buy a few more perfect warlords for the lulz? :D

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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:00 pm 
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    enthar wrote:
    The Duke stands there with one arm burned off by acidic battle crap... wow. Erfworlders in general seem to have a much higher tolerance for pain and injury than Earth worlders- losing an arm like that would drop most people into a useless ball of pain (especially to acid!), even if the blood loss was not an issue. Ceaser had a similar post back in the summer updates, with broken bones, burns and what not. I wonder if Parson has gained some of this resistance, or if he is more 'vulnerable' to shock and damage as a result of not being used to surviving such extremes of pain.

    (it could be that the higher level units like Duke and Ceaser are just accustomed to pain after having experienced it repeatedly over the course of their lives, and this is not a trait general to Erfworlders)

    Enthar

    He's Adam Antium. I'd be more surprised if he couldn't ignore it.

    I'm mostly interested in whether or not attacking the yellow count as attacking all of GK. If not, then technically no one else can attack. If it does mean attacking all of GK, then Tram made a stupid move. too many variables.

    Take a look at that Hobgobwin. Its wearing Wanda's colors, which make me think its been decrypted. Thus its a GK unit and can be promoted just like any GK unit.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:01 pm 
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    This is precisely the sort of ploy that I knew made it nearly impossible to predict Parson's strategy. Rob even gave us plenty of warning with the whole banana incident. In fact, I think I even remember saying something along the line of "maybe it's not weight itself, it's just the heavy attribute." Still, one wouldn't normally think you can promote a unit to heavy: it's the sort of trait or class that is usually inviolate in games.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:05 pm 
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    DevilDan wrote:
    This is precisely the sort of ploy that I knew made it nearly impossible to predict Parson's strategy. Rob even gave us plenty of warning with the whole banana incident. In fact, I think I even remember saying something along the line of "maybe it's not weight itself, it's just the heavy attribute." Still, one wouldn't normally think you can promote a unit to heavy: it's the sort of trait or class that is usually inviolate in games.


    Maybe "heavy" being an upgrade was Rob saying, "don't just assume that erfworld is totally similliar to other settings" :D

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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:06 pm 
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    So the plan seems to be
    1) Have the Yellows evacuate their bowels, forcing Jetstone to evacuate the Courtyard.
    2) Drop in, croak what remains, uncroak what broke on the way down (being a heavy may or may not help here - it's unclear).
    3) Depending on the mechanics of garrision movement:
    3a) If in-garrison move is allowed for off-turn assailants, they can continue, meet up with Parson, and take the rest of the city now.
    3b) If it's not allowed, they're still at an advantage in that they now control a zone with chokepoints that can be indefinitely held via staffing the door with the decrypted remains of the last sucker who tried to get in. Not sure about this branch - archers can still theoretically rain death through the broken roof. Unless there's something archons can do to stop cross-zone danmaku?

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    Last edited by Menlo Marseilles on Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:09 pm 
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    @Menlo Marseilles:
    4) If 3a is true, at a critical point, Perfect Chief Warlord bursts through portal carrying a few magic items, starts some more fighting/diplomacy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:10 pm 
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    You might say it is some heavy-thinfoilhatery for a newcomer, but I had this crazy idea I'd like you to shred into peices :P

    I'm basing my idea on the following passage of some summer update

    Quote:
    "The emblems are called 'livery,' Lord. And yes, that is a common form of natural Dollamancy. New units pop bearing the livery their Ruler desires. Twolls can fabricate items which bear their master's livery. And when a caster creates another unit, as in golem-making or uncroaking, the caster sets the livery and other features of the unit's appearance."


    What if the mysterious food fight was a great confusion caused by Wanda putting the original Jetstone livery on her newly decrypted jetstone units (assuming she can decrypt across zones now that the dragons have been attacked from the garrison (tower)) thus causing them to appear like ordinary jetstones unit and making everyone attack everyone in a wonderfully entertaining chaos (much like your standard issue food-fight)?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:13 pm 
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    Nihila wrote:
    @Menlo Marseilles:
    4) If 3a is true, at a critical point, Perfect Chief Warlord bursts through portal carrying a few magic items, starts some more fighting/diplomacy.
    Yeah, I realized after rereading my post that this would make his decision to come in via portal actually make sense.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:14 pm 
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    ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ wrote:
    You might say it is some heavy-thinfoilhatery for a newcomer, but I had this crazy idea I'd like you to shred into peices :P

    I'm basing my idea on the following passage of some summer update

    Quote:
    "The emblems are called 'livery,' Lord. And yes, that is a common form of natural Dollamancy. New units pop bearing the livery their Ruler desires. Twolls can fabricate items which bear their master's livery. And when a caster creates another unit, as in golem-making or uncroaking, the caster sets the livery and other features of the unit's appearance."


    What if the mysterious food fight was a great confusion caused by Wanda putting the original Jetstone livery on her newly decrypted jetstone units (assuming she can decrypt across zones now that the dragons have been attacked from the garrison (tower)) thus causing them to appear like ordinary jetstones unit and making everyone attack everyone in a wonderfully entertaining chaos (much like your standard issue food-fight)?

    There's still ways to tell one way or the other, unfortunately - other than (possibly) Parson's 3D glasses, people can't see the statblocks of other sides' units.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:15 pm 
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    ╒╦╧╬╩╦╦╛ wrote:
    You might say it is some heavy-thinfoilhatery for a newcomer, but I had this crazy idea I'd like you to shred into peices :P

    I'm basing my idea on the following passage of some summer update

    Quote:
    "The emblems are called 'livery,' Lord. And yes, that is a common form of natural Dollamancy. New units pop bearing the livery their Ruler desires. Twolls can fabricate items which bear their master's livery. And when a caster creates another unit, as in golem-making or uncroaking, the caster sets the livery and other features of the unit's appearance."


    What if the mysterious food fight was a great confusion caused by Wanda putting the original Jetstone livery on her newly decrypted jetstone units (assuming she can decrypt across zones now that the dragons have been attacked from the garrison (tower)) thus causing them to appear like ordinary jetstones unit and making everyone attack everyone in a wonderfully entertaining chaos (much like your standard issue food-fight)?

    That's actually a very interesting idea. There's been some mention of maybe having Jack make the decrypted units appear to have Jetstone's livery but this seems to be a much simpler way of accomplishing the same goal, allowing Jack to do other things with his juice.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:16 pm 
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    GlueDuck wrote:
    That's actually a very interesting idea. There's been some mention of maybe having Jack make the decrypted units appear to have Jetstone's livery but this seems to be a much simpler way of accomplishing the same goal, allowing Jack to do other things with his juice.
    Maybe Jack's part of such a plan would be to add those illusory statblocks? Can people innately tell if something is a statblock as opposed to just looking like one?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:18 pm 
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    Or maybe the other way around. Can Jack make other unit's stat-block disappear?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:20 pm 
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    Not to ruin your tinfoilamancy, but both of these ideas (livery and foolamancy thing) have been suggested months ago, when Parson first mentioned "food fight" :D

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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:22 pm 
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    Sheiss! I must have missed the one on the livery. Though I remembered the part about foolamancy being evoked...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:22 pm 
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    technojunkie wrote:
    Tramennis is absolute in that he intends to talk to Parson, yet there's no thinkamancer present and the archons were ordered away from the tower. Given that he knows Parson can enter the magic kingdom is it probable that he expects parson to come visit?

    Jetstone doesn't have a thinkamancer.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:23 pm 
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    Menlo Marseilles wrote:
    There's still ways to tell one way or the other, unfortunately - other than (possibly) Parson's 3D glasses, people can't see the statblocks of other sides' units.

    I think they can. Janis could see Sizemore's bonus change, for one thing.

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