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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:19 am 
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From the summer updates:
Quote:
"Finally, he realized that time couldn't possibly be slowing down this much. He looked back up at the edge of the tower, and saw two small, worried faces looking down at him. He and the dwagon actually were falling unnaturally slowly. But definitely falling, not floating."


Seems Erfworld's combat system doesn't have a graceful way of handling the case of a heavy unit riding a flyer: they just float back down to ground level. What I would wonder is: does this count as a "fall"? It seems both Parson and Banana got away without serious harm.

(Unrelated musing: which arkentool would a decrypted dwagon obey? Both?)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:33 am 
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    Utoryo wrote:
    I'm willing to bet Ossomer will turn. He clearly seems unaware of the plan, and Tramennis didn't spend an entire strip making him doubt Paron's honour for nothing. And if that happens, it might mean Jetstone's got an heir again!


    I believe it will be an epic fail if Ossomer turned, story-wise.

    We already know that the decrypted are fanatic to Wanda and her pliers, possibly even more than they're loyal to their ruler and faction. We already know that Vanna, a turnamancer failed to turn Ansom. So, if Ossomer turns just because his CWL is honorless, that would be a pretty bad story twist.

    Why, no, "why" isn't the question here; HOW would he be able to betray Wanda, his mistress, just because their CWL did something dishonorable? I don't think it's possible.

    And really, this isn't even "dishonorable", but let's not revive that discussion again. This thread has loads of other things to talk about :)

    Quote:
    (Unrelated musing: which arkentool would a decrypted dwagon obey? Both?)


    Hmm. I think the pliers would dominate because they applied their power after the hammer did. But I also think that they'll be more loyal to Stanley because he's a stronger individual than Wanda. Or maybe Wanda will win because she's a caster and thus, better at controlling forces? Good question :D

    If both tools had exactly equal power, then the pliers would dominate since their effect is more recent, but also, the hammer would be able to undo the decryption and make the dwagon its possession again.

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    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.


    Last edited by zilfallon on Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:38 am 
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    So, we now know that gravity can break hex boundaries. Heavy Hodgobwins force the dragons to fall... the fall forces them onto the ground... 1/3rd die, 1/3rd are incap, 1/3rd are fine. In all cases they are on the "ground" now and can attack.

    Can dwagons be decrypted? I doubt it just to avoid the "my arkentool is more powerful than yours" pissing contest.

    The GK "ground" forces consist of...
    - Decrypted Heavy Hobgobwins, incap Heavy Hobgobwins, living Heavy Hobgobwins
    - If possible, decrypted/living/incap Yellow Dwagons
    - Decrypted Infantry that died from the s-bombs and crashing yellow dwagons
    - a crap ton of acidic battle crap (probably golems if Sizemore gets into the battlespace)

    ... only downside is that none of their ground stacks are being led by a warlord or caster... cue Parson, Sizemore, and maybe Maggie's dash through the magic kingdom. Once they are in Jetstone on the ground, it will be a rout.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:58 am 
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    I applaude Rob for pulling something out of his sleeves that nobody had on his list before. This is pretty difficult to achieve with that much (silly) speculation around.

    Kizmet wrote:
    In all cases they are on the "ground" now and can attack.

    Ok, Im reluctantly accepting the first part - but the second is still no true. We are still off-turn! So be it uncroaked, turned or healed - you have GK on your forehead, you are not allowed to attack unless being attacked yourself. (except for being yellow and a dragon)

    Thats the reasoning behind Tram waiting out this little "storm". They knew Parson could use his yellows a little - just to raise the stakes at the upcomming negotiations - and see, he did. Fine. We react appropiately: shoot at the yellows only and evacuate the atrium. I find the latter order important. Tram did not order to retaliate just leave the area of bombardment. I clearly do not expect GK to gain a larger-than-remaining-JS ground-based army by croaking lots of Jetstone troops. They are retreating so this is not an option.

    By the way about uncroaked dwagons: although I would not like to see it logic dictates that the newly created units will obey the pliers. All old feats the unit had before death will be overwritten by some of the same or/and new feats.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:04 am 
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    On "off turn" comments, a side appears to be able to cast and move within a hex when they've been engaged by an enemy whose turn is active. In essence, parlaying has granted Gobwin Knob new life...and of course we all know "Parlay is French for 'Sneak Attack'!" :P

    Overall, I'd offer the most revealing thing from this page is that Tramennis doesn't have a clue who he's dealing with. With his great intelligence and diplomacy natural aptitude and experience, the thought was there perhaps Tramennis could read Parson's profile (from Charlie) and begin to anticipate Parson a bit, but he's clueless (at least at the moment.) It isn't hard to understand why, but he's definitely suffering from overconfidence at the moment due to his sides' position and numbers...even his father appears shrewder (though a broken clock is right twice a day)...and it doesn't appears Tramennis is doing so as a posture either. Ah well...I suspect he'll begin to learn very quickly if he survives long enough.


    I didn't realize you could promote units to heavies either. Perhaps this is a 'special' about hobgobwins?

    Parson is demonstrating he is "learning that ilk" <- anagram of the day. :geek:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:28 am 
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    Quote:
    By the way about uncroaked dwagons: although I would not like to see it logic dictates that the newly created units will obey the pliers. All old feats the unit had before death will be overwritten by some of the same or/and new feats.


    I suspect you're right -- the decrypted archons seem fully loyal to Wanda*, though the relationship with between the arkendish and the archons isn't quite as direct as the relationship between dwagons and the arkenhammer. On the other hand, even the decrypted archons had to rationalize their loyalty within the context of the moral code they got from Charlie. The dwagons may be forced to make a similar rationalization, albeit on a more simple-minded scale.

    **
    Spoiler: show
    (The decrypted archons seem fully loyal to GK ... unless they're responsible for Charlie's uncanny insight into Parson's plans, or have some role (passive perhaps?) in the suspected thinkagram-tapping. As we get more examples of flaws in the decrypted's fanaticism, this seems more and more possible.)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:39 am 
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    A decrypted Dwagon will probly be loyal to the pliers upon decryption, but the hammer was what got them in the first place. The Arkenhammer has the ability to tame Dwagons and bring them under the wielder's control. Stanley could probably be able to retake control of them from Wanda, and she won't be able to do anything about it.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:42 am 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Battle Crest Pins Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
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    Oh boy, this is bad I feel that although Tram is being smart, he just is not ready for the next part of the plan. Parson may be securing the gate in Jetstone so he can get through safely. It looks like Parson has a plan that Jetstone will not be able to stop because they will only be reacting to one thing not ready for the next. King Stately was right take out all the dwagons not just the yellows now GK has ground forces again.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:46 am 
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    Nah.. it would have been the same. Parson ordered Wanda to put stacking dwagons between her and the tower specifically for the case that someone order their archers to take out all of the dwagons.

    Ninjaguineapig wrote:
    A decrypted Dwagon will probly be loyal to the pliers upon decryption, but the hammer was what got them in the first place. The Arkenhammer has the ability to tame Dwagons and bring them under the wielder's control. Stanley could probably be able to retake control of them from Wanda, and she won't be able to do anything about it.


    Technically, Decrypted dwagons are croaked dwagons, so they should be under Wanda's influence more than Stanley, especially when she could just recroak them should they turn on her.

    zilfallon wrote:
    Wow...that was...surprising, and good.
    Nice effect on Spacerock Tower defences, TD :D

    And Tram showing intelligence?

    Quote:
    He is posturing, Father. Trying to unsettle us. Showing his contempt by doing the only thing he can, while he can.


    This means Tram saw it coming, probably. And this also means that Tram is underestiminating Lord Hamster, even after all he heard from Charlie. Underestiminating your enemy is NEVER a good thing, and Tram is underestiminating the protagonist, which almost always results in defeat, especially if they say "what's the worst that could happen?"

    And really, Wanda has a scary smile on her face :D

    Oh also, Ossomer sayin "I am truly sorry, brother" with that look on his face seems like he's having pity on Tram and Jetstone.

    Edit: Poor Duke, his arm melted :(

    Edit2: This update showed us why the crap followed a strange route in mid-air. They aren't randomly crapping, they are targeting specific infantry, and those infantry are running. Dwagons have high enough attack to hit the infantry, even if they run, so their crap is homing, and follow the infantry.


    I don't think Tram could see the "heavy" trick coming. But yes, he knew the Yellows to be able to drop Battlecraps, and to the best of his knowledge, that was the best GK could do within Jetstone's turn. I don't really think Tram expected Parson to actually use Battlecrap in that turn, as what he said in Page 47

    Quote:
    "Or if he is.. in fact, lower than Stanley"


    But that also showed how quick-thinking Trammenis can be, to come up with an instant solution

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:50 am 
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    zilfallon wrote:
    Utoryo wrote:
    I'm willing to bet Ossomer will turn. He clearly seems unaware of the plan, and Tramennis didn't spend an entire strip making him doubt Paron's honour for nothing. And if that happens, it might mean Jetstone's got an heir again!


    I believe it will be an epic fail if Ossomer turned, story-wise.

    We already know that the decrypted are fanatic to Wanda and her pliers, possibly even more than they're loyal to their ruler and faction. We already know that Vanna, a turnamancer failed to turn Ansom. So, if Ossomer turns just because his CWL is honorless, that would be a pretty bad story twist.

    Why, no, "why" isn't the question here; HOW would he be able to betray Wanda, his mistress, just because their CWL did something dishonorable? I don't think it's possible.

    And really, this isn't even "dishonorable", but let's not revive that discussion again. This thread has loads of other things to talk about :)


    I doubt Ossomer will turn however this does prove that decrypted units still have "feelings" to their old side and are still capable of adhering to those principles. Ossomer is merely conflicted with the "honor" of the parley based on his old code with those whom he served right in front of him. It's embarrasing to be shown up as being dishonorable when honor was your primary creed before being decrypted. Time is also a factor, Wanda has said so that it takes time for the decrypted to gain power/loyality etc. even with the pliers.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:50 am 
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    The duke is pretty badass, standing there with his arm gone.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:52 am 
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    There is nothing scarier than a happy Wanda.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:57 am 
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    I wonder if one could make Crap Golems out of the yellow's... ammunition... to add insult to injury. :lol:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:59 am 
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    First of all, I'd like to point out that neither Parson nor the Dwagon he was riding took falling damage when they did their very slow descent into the courtyard of Gobwin Knob. This would imply that none of the newly-heavy Hobgobwins will suffer falling damage either, as the Dwagons they are riding will slow the descent enough that they will be okay. It could be that Parson just go lucky in that summer update, but it seems unlikley given what's happening now that that wasn't designed as direct foreshadowing for the current situation.

    Now, the problem that GK still has is that it still has most of its warlords and all of its casters in the airspace. Casters can't cast across hex boundaries, so this should stop Wanda from decrypting the forces on the ground as they cwoak each other. Without the support of most of the leadership it seems incredibly unlikley that those Hobgobwins and Dwagons currently descending to erf will win the fight against the combined might of the JetStone infantry. That many Dwagons and heavy Hobgobwins with the Hobgobwin tribal leaders acting as warlords will certianly make a dent in the Jet Stone forces, but they can't win alone. Given this it seems obvious that Wanda and co. need to make it down to the garrison safely, and this may well be the riskiest part of the entire plan.

    EDIT: Also, I don't understand all the naysaying of Tram in this one. Tram did a very intelligent move with the intelligence he had available to him. He can't possibly be blamed for not anticipating something like promoting mounted units to heavies mid fight. The very idea must be almost incomprehensible to most Erworlders, everyone knows heavies can't have mounts, and Erfworlders are notorious for not testing the boundaries of their reality. Not even Jack in all his brilliance thought "hey, lets promote the Hobgobwins to heavy status", and he saw Parson do his little experiment on Bananna.


    Last edited by shadowdemon on Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:04 pm 
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    Awesome! The heavy idea is in use.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:04 pm 
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    shadowdemon wrote:
    First of all, I'd like to point out that neither Parson nor the Dwagon he was riding took falling damage when they did their very slow descent into the courtyard of Gobwin Knob. This would imply that none of the newly-heavy Hobgobwins will suffer falling damage either, as the Dwagons they are riding will slow the descent enough that they will be okay. It could be that Parson just go lucky in that summer update, but it seems unlikley given what's happening now that that wasn't designed as direct foreshadowing for the current situation.

    Now, the problem that GK still has is that it still has most of its warlords and all of its casters in the airspace. Casters can't cast across hex boundaries, so this should stop Wanda from decrypting the forces on the ground as they cwoak each other. Without the support of most of the leadership it seems incredibly unlikley that those Hobgobwins and Dwagons currently descending to erf will win the fight against the combined might of the JetStone infantry. That many Dwagons and heavy Hobgobwins with the Hobgobwin tribal leaders acting as warlords will certianly make a dent in the Jet Stone forces, but they can't win alone. Given this it seems obvious that Wanda and co. need to make it down to the garrison safely, and this may well be the riskiest part of the entire plan.


    If Wanda is unable to decrypt corpses on ground, then what exactly is "lunch time" ? Interesting :D Maybe pliers can decrypt across city boundaries? Or maybe we're about to see a power other than decryption? (seems unlikely, though :( )

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    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:07 pm 
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    I'm still fairly convinced that the dragons will be harvested for food, killing them, and dropping everyone else to the ground. Wanda and Jack will heal each other via scrolls and then Wanda will decrypt the "dead" dwagons and other units that died (and the image of dwagons that look like giant thanksgiving turkeys fighting is very funny to me).

    Food production is one of the things specifically mentioned as possible during off turn.
    Culling Sourmanders for food was specifically mentioned as possible (so by extension, might apply to other animal mounts).

    It just seems strange to me to mention those capabilities but not use them in some manner.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:09 pm 
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    Kizmet wrote:
    So, we now know that gravity can break hex boundaries. Heavy Hodgobwins force the dragons to fall... the fall forces them onto the ground... 1/3rd die, 1/3rd are incap, 1/3rd are fine.

    I don't think it counts as that kind of fall. Parson has deliberately replicated the situation from the summer updates (when he tried to ride a dragon) so they'll probably all be fine.

    Quote:
    Can dwagons be decrypted? I doubt it just to avoid the "my arkentool is more powerful than yours" pissing contest.

    I don't see why not -- practically every unit type can be decrypted.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:10 pm 
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    Weird. This is the first instance I can think of where Parson knows about a rule or ability that the readers haven't been presented (or perhaps I was too dense to pick up on it). I hope "promote to heavy" is just a weird way of phrasing his invokation of this rule to overload the dwagons with food or something:

    "If they are given Schmuckers, the tribe must convert it all to new or promoted units or popped rations or equipment on the next turn."

    Of course, it is not currently the "next turn," so... still confused and trying not to be disappointed until someone smarter than me confirms or denies my fears.


    Re: Overloaded dwagons don't take falling damage. Mebbe. Either way, it forces the dwagons to fall!


    Re: Tram was smart/dumb. I think he's being smart, but his orders, unfortunately for him, are really playing into Parson's hand. It almost seems like Tram is the oft-cheated protagonist of book 2... which, if book 1 is any lesson, is bad news for Parson.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 48
     Post Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:16 pm 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Battle Crest Pins Supporter This user is a Tool! Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
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    The Duke stands there with one arm burned off by acidic battle crap... wow. Erfworlders in general seem to have a much higher tolerance for pain and injury than Earth worlders- losing an arm like that would drop most people into a useless ball of pain (especially to acid!), even if the blood loss was not an issue. Ceaser had a similar post back in the summer updates, with broken bones, burns and what not. I wonder if Parson has gained some of this resistance, or if he is more 'vulnerable' to shock and damage as a result of not being used to surviving such extremes of pain.

    (it could be that the higher level units like Duke and Ceaser are just accustomed to pain after having experienced it repeatedly over the course of their lives, and this is not a trait general to Erfworlders)

    Enthar

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