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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 4:56 pm 
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Hatu wrote:
Ansan Gotti wrote:
Hatu wrote:
Rob has spent a lot of time alluding to the falling exploit, yet we still have no idea how Erfworld works. So knowing that an exploit exists doesn't mean much. Maybe Erfworld DOES have a "firing mechanism" that's distinct from the physical actions taken by Characters, but if so, the time to explain that was BEFORE this comic, not after it.


That said, it does make me wonder why Trammenis thought the Yellows could attack the Tower. It should have been immune to off-turn assault as well, and I seriously doubt Tram knew about the shoot-at-the-ground exploit.



Because the Tower borders Airspace, as been noted elsewhere. All the GK forces present are air units. As the attacking force, they're not supposed to be able to attack the Atrium directly until they've taken the Tower, as was spelled out in Book One and has since been reiterated.

Tram was aware that the Yellows could have 'bombed' him out in the open, and both he and his father, Slately, were concerned about them assaulting the Tower using a Drop Shi(*), but as was also bruted about amongst the warlords in the Atrium, nobody (except Parson) though that the Yellows would assault the Atrium. In fact, they dismissed it without much of a second thought.

No authorwise shennanigans or other sleight of hand: all the elements were carefully shown to be in place beforehand with only the, 'How the heck is it going to go down?' left unseen till now- and it's been masterfully dropped into place.

Of course, the one surprise to me was that the Dragons dispense Meat Seeking Dookie; kinda like a cross between a Hellfire missile and the aftermath of a curry dinner a la Mexicali de Muy Caliente.

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:22 pm 
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    joosy wrote:
    Magothys wrote:
    according to the first text update in issue 2, units can fire across boundaries in defense when their city is being attacked. I imagine the same applies to the dwagons in this unique situation; they are allowed to fire across zones in defense (from arrows). Trammenis and Slately were probably expecting a bombardment on the towers AFTER Jetstone began firing arrows on the dwagons.


    The full sentence reads: "But when its not their turn they can only shoot enemy units in the same hex (or city zone if their side doesn't own the city), or as defense when your city is being attacked."

    Since GK's city is not being attacked, the dwagons cannot attack across zones off-turn. They are essentially sitting dwucks. Or at least they are while they remain in the Airspace. With the holes made by the acidic battle crap they can now fall into the Courtyard zone of the garrison and, without the Tower defenses to worry about, and, assuming Wanda survives, the added bonus of decrypted Jetstone's non-archer units (ironically placed in the Courtyard to avoid being crushed by the falling bodies) they can probably take the entire Garrison without razing it.


    The bit on defense was emphasized for city defense, but I'm not entirely convinced it wouldn't apply to any units under attack by forces in another hex. If it were true a unit couldn't fire back at an enemy in another hex, every side in ErfWorld would likely have stuck to using ranged attackers and casters, since they could safely shoot units from the adjacent hex during their turn.

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:26 pm 
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    Just noticed the Duke Lacrosse reference. Geez, those guys were found to be innocent. Not just "not guilty", but innocent by the state. Now the Duke is being crapped on. They just can't catch a break, can they?

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:33 pm 
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    Much as I hate to feed the forum twolls, I thought it might be a good idea to quote Text Update 25:

    Quote:
    He (Tramennis) had covered more than two-thirds of the distance to the Garrison before it occurred to him to consider the enemy units directly above him.
    Though they showed no signs of impending aggression, he scolded himself. Those yellow dwagons, at least, could take some potshots at him. It had been too many turns to count since Tramennis had looked upon Erfworld strictly as through a general's eyes.


    Hopefully that ends the argument. It's a known mechanic. It's an exploit.

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:37 pm 
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    Magothys wrote:
    joosy wrote:
    Magothys wrote:
    according to the first text update in issue 2, units can fire across boundaries in defense when their city is being attacked. I imagine the same applies to the dwagons in this unique situation; they are allowed to fire across zones in defense (from arrows). Trammenis and Slately were probably expecting a bombardment on the towers AFTER Jetstone began firing arrows on the dwagons.


    The full sentence reads: "But when its not their turn they can only shoot enemy units in the same hex (or city zone if their side doesn't own the city), or as defense when your city is being attacked."

    Since GK's city is not being attacked, the dwagons cannot attack across zones off-turn. They are essentially sitting dwucks. Or at least they are while they remain in the Airspace. With the holes made by the acidic battle crap they can now fall into the Courtyard zone of the garrison and, without the Tower defenses to worry about, and, assuming Wanda survives, the added bonus of decrypted Jetstone's non-archer units (ironically placed in the Courtyard to avoid being crushed by the falling bodies) they can probably take the entire Garrison without razing it.


    The bit on defense was emphasized for city defense, but I'm not entirely convinced it wouldn't apply to any units under attack by forces in another hex. If it were true a unit couldn't fire back at an enemy in another hex, every side in ErfWorld would likely have stuck to using ranged attackers and casters, since they could safely shoot units from the adjacent hex during their turn.


    <sigh> You cannot attack across a hex zone or city boundary off turn UNLESS you are defending a city you control. End of story until it is shown to be otherwise.

    Using ranged attacks exclusively is a nice plan but only if you can guarantee that your opponents will always be stuck off-turn in an adjacent hex or city zone AND that you have enough ranged attack power to take out all enemies in the adjacent hex(es) AND that your ranged attacks can reach all enemy units in adjacent hexes with unerring accuracy AND have enough move to retreat all units to a safe space to avoid retaliation from the enemy during their turn.

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:38 pm 
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    HailGreen28 wrote:
    Just noticed the Duke Lacrosse reference. Geez, those guys were found to be innocent. Not just "not guilty", but innocent by the state. Now the Duke is being crapped on. They just can't catch a break, can they?


    Hopefully the invincible Captain Price can save them!

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:44 pm 
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    its hard to say this... but im really sad for jetstone troops. royals... nobles... they maybe deserve to die but dying this way for normal man? omg :(

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 5:55 pm 
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    mhangman wrote:
    its hard to say this... but im really sad for jetstone troops. royals... nobles... they maybe deserve to die but dying this way for normal man? omg :(


    Perhaps Jetstone has its own version of "1000 Ways to Die" to commemorate this event.

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 6:16 pm 
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    The yellow dwagon crap is considered to be acidic. Where is this coming from? Does anybody have a link?

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 6:28 pm 
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    Geordy wrote:
    The yellow dwagon crap is considered to be acidic. Where is this coming from? Does anybody have a link?


    Summer Update 32:

    "The dwagon roared angrily, and took off into the sky, leaving a steaming pile of acidic battlecrap on the pavement."

    Two other notes.

    1) The yellows could have bombed the Tower if they were in the airspace above it (with gravity acting on the yellow dwagon weapon), this is what Slately/Tramennis were concerned about and why they ordered the GK troops to dispel all veils and assemble over the garrison.

    2) I think a legitimate question has been raised as to why Duke Antium stepped through the analysis about being safe from siege and purple dwagon breath, but neglected to consider the yellow dwagon attack. The answers that I can perceive are not entirely satisfying:

    A) Duke Antium is not aware that the yellow dwagon attack can cross zone boundaries off-turn, this is not entirely satisfying since it appears to be common knowledge to at least Slately and Tramennis.

    B) Perhaps the yellow dwagon attack is not commonly known to be a siege attack. Again, not entirely satisfying because the other aspects of the attack appear to be at least somewhat common knowledge to at least Slately and Tramennis.

    C) Perhaps the yellow dwagon attack is NOT siege, and yet it is somehow able to break through the ceiling anyway. This is not entirely satisfying because this particular nuance has not been foreshadowed.

    Thoughts?

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 6:50 pm 
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    I expect the fall exploit will be applied soon, but I almost wonder whether GK even needs it given the risks of falling damage. The primary objective is to protect the flying units from a crushing archery attack. The Atrium looks large enough to hold all the dragons even while remaining airborne. If the dragons simply fly through the holes they've made, it looks like they'll be shielded from ranged attacks while still free to take dragon-poop attacks of opportunity until turn ends. Or am I missing something?

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:03 pm 
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    JS could deploy their archers to the atrium and just shoot them down. Hiding in the atrium could work against AA magic, though, since it has to be fired from the tower.


    Last edited by danhaas on Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:10 pm 
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    Basically the plan is this
    1: Bomb the courtyard with crap and cause the disparate advantage of melee vs flying
    2: Bring the dragons under the roof, mounted dragon units stab at the melee units ala Ansom on the carpet vs uncroaked JS army and assuring that any arrows fired at the air units that miss hit the target rich environment below them
    3: illegally cross the border between the airspace and the ground(the ground itself) by dismounting, bringing the fall mechanic into play.
    4: Decrypt the horde, kill the rest of the courtyard and get a foothold in the garrison, allowing you to freely attack the other portions of the garrison

    Basically they only need to exploit one mechanic to win this fight, The "food fight" comes from the chaos of trying to kill air units in a slightly less tactically sound way than "they're stuck in the air, just shoot!"

    They need the fall mechanic to claim the Courtyard zone, otherwise they're stuck just above the ground in the airspace, unable to proceed.

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:23 pm 
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    The Duke Lacross team continues to suffer ignomony.

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:30 pm 
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    Perhaps Jetstone knew the units in the Atrium could be attacked but simply didn't care.

    After all, the only units they need are in the tower. As in, more than enough units to reduce GK's entire flying army into ruin. Jetstone was probably mostly concerned with protecting those assets (as well as the casters, Tram, and Slately). As such, the yellow's attack, while somewhat effective, is pointless in the grand scheme of things.

    So croaking a few soldiers and possibly a few Warlords/Nobles can be seen as a petty vengeance attack of a defeated side, hence Tram's 'even lower' comment. After all, even if the dwagons kill every unit in the Atrium, they're still going to die horribly when Jetstone finally attacks.

    Also, looks like the Duke's luckamancy showed up, as the first dwagon crap-ball would've fallen on him.

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:36 pm 
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    gameboy1234 wrote:
    And the roof is one way viewing. Good thought for those who did think it. I wouldn't have guessed that a glass roof would work that way. But it makes sense to keep enemy eyes from seeing the deployment inside the Atrium.
    Or it was a bit of fast thinking retconjuration. After all, the update where we got the details of this city site would have been the natural place to mention the one-way glass, a clear (pun intended) fit with all of the other in-depth details provided. And it prevents re-work, when the roof is shown to be shingled by accident. And really... how often would there be any need to prevent enemies from seeing your troop deployment within the atrium of the capital city? That obscurity certainly isn't helping them now, and even the opportunity to provide any tactical value would be scarce to never.

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 7:49 pm 
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    Geordy wrote:
    Why the heck they actually can [attack] off-turn completely eludes me.
    This is a long known mechanic. Any unled unit will attack upon contact with the enemy. This means that if a Warlord led stack encounters a non-Warlord led stack in the wilderness, no matter how peaceful the intentions of the led stack are, there will be combat. If the led stack is the one with the turn and the movement, they can retreat to try to limit the combat exchange. If the non-led stack is the one with the turn and the movement, it will be a fight to the death of one side of the other.

    The only thing which prevented an immediate combat between the GK and Jetstone forces was the large array of command units on either side. Both sides have had the opportunity to attack at any moment.
    Geordy wrote:
    But that aside Jetstone is aware of this. So why on earth did they put them somewhere where they can actually hurt the garrison?
    I believe that any explanation will follow the same "Jetstone knew that it had the overwhelming upper hand, and so they allowed themselves to be outmaneuvered" mindset which has been the rationale for at least a dozen updates for Jetstone not doing so: They could at any time, and wanted to gloat a bit and pretend to be magnanimous and otherwise "royal" before slaughtering the GK forces. Is it a bit strained? Yep, it sure is.

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:08 pm 
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    I think that holding the courtyard won't help the fight airspace vs tower but it allow the hold the whole garnison at the end of the battle. Remember, the king and the warlord chief cannot use the portal and doesn't have flying mounts. (Parson doesn't know about the jetpack.) If think go bad for the Jetstone the casters, warlords, king and remaining troop could have flee to the courtyard knowing that the enemy cannot and wait for the reinforcements that they are waiting for from the other members of the coalition. Now they cannot run away. Worse, if the tower fall, Spacerock fall directly to Gobwin Knob. So if there are someone else after, Haggar that secretly ploy to betray. He is in front of a city controled by Parson.

    Also, where is the portal room in Spacerock? If it is inside the courtyard, Parson can enter relatively safely here and block the escape road of the casters. Captured caster are invaluable. Parson can add half of his bonus to his troops instead to a third and he can claim a city. I think that the real cheat is yet to be seen. Lord Hamster have a trick to defeat the tower. He just need to have the whole garnison before the start of Gobwin Knob turn.

    Ça me semble logique.

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:20 pm 
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    Methinks Wyvern and, later, Altima got it right. It sounds like JS was aware that the roof was vulnerable, but (incorrectly) figured that GK's only hope was to take out the archers. If GK can get Wanda safely on the ground, then they'll want decrypted melee far more than decrypted archers.

    If GK acts quickly and wipes out the melee units before the casters and archers can be brought to bear... well... anyone ever seen the tank go down in an MMO? Tends to be over quickly :)

    My only confusion is that Antium wasn't a bit more worried given their vulnerable state. In board games and strategy games, betting too heavily upon the enemy acting in their best interests ignores the possibility that you are wrong about their situation and the possibility that your enemy is dumb. Of course, it sounds like the Atrium might have still been the safest place to start, and it's not like he had much time to react.

    I don't think the poo is heat seeking... curvature was probably just artistic license.

    He did originally describe it as a "smoked" glass roof... which, on bright days can indeed be 1 way!

    Of course, I'm all for retcons if they eliminate ambiguity. I have my writing extensively read over by friends and coworkers before I submit it (internet posts aside!) Often things that I thought were perfectly clear end up being huge hangups for readers. I'm absolutely floored by how few of these Erfworld has had to use.

    From time to time, the pictures in Erfworld are able to shock me. This picture, like the tower defenses going off way back at GK, really bring home how horrific this cutesy little world is. Bravo, Xin, and shame on you!

    Something tells me this wasn't what the people in TV were expecting to see when Bunny started transmitting.

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    Last edited by effataigus on Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:24 pm 
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    Jetstone might perversely want to let some of their Atrium units die - remember they're not in good shape financially, and a massive victory with little/no losses wouldn't really solve the upkeep problem. That might explain Trem and Slately's lack of concern at the cwap-bombing (which they should have realized would cause casualties once it'd broken through)

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