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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:25 pm 
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"Oh Shiiiiiiii-"

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:27 pm 
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    Oh, the battle is just starting...
    Nice and fast update, Rob. Please keep the pace!

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:31 pm 
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    Interesting. Anybody else notice the weird trajectories on those crap-balls? They 'snake' through the air. Maybe there's more them than first meets the eye? ... Or maybe they were just 'lobbed' in :P

    So what next? My guess (fairly standard, at this point): Wanda decrypts some of the dying soldiers, Jack Foolamancies some of the living soldiers to make them look decrypted, and the entire Atrium turns into a charnel house with decrypted attack the living, the living attacking the decrypted, and the living attacking the living veiled to look like decrypted units.

    I guess that's the keeping to the spirit of a 'food fight' -- someone throws a pudding, tricks his victim into thinking it was thrown by someone else, people start throwing things and some of them miss, hitting the wrong people. Eventually everybody's fighting everybody else, and it's hard to know who's attacking you because they hate you and who's attacking you because they're misguided.

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:35 pm 
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    Hatu wrote:
    Ouze wrote:
    I don't understand how the roof can stop arrows and attacks, and attacks from purple drawgons, but not crap - is that some other category? I don't have a great grasp of Erf physics or rules so maybe this is an elementary question.


    Me neither. If it takes siege attacks to break the roof, then I don't see why the Purple Dwagons' attacks would be forbidden when the Yellow Dwagons' aren't. If the Yellow Dwagons' droppings don't count as siege attacks, then I have no idea why they're so destructive.

    Nothing to do but wait for the big reveal.

    -H


    I think it's the gravity exploit. The sonic attack is considered crossing the zone while the poo is considered falling. The yellow dragons aren't attacking technically, they're just pooing and it's just dropping which just happens to be over the troops ;)

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:40 pm 
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    The Courtyard is part of the garrison, and this atrium covers the Courtyard.

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:44 pm 
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    (a) ok, so, we now know that the crap from the dwagons CAN hurt the guys on the ground "sheltered" beneath the ceiling...

    (b) so the dwagons can crap on-demand? does that make it still a "bodily function", or an actual "attack method" that nobody has tried to use before?

    Peep wrote:
    The debris can fall into another zone using the fall mechanic, but can not break the ceiling because it is not siege damage. The purple dragons sonic attack could break through the ceiling if it were their turn because it is siege, but can not cross zones because it can not "fall." The battlecrap can "fall" across zones AND does siege damage when it hits, thereby destroying the ceiling through a "loophole" in the Erfworld rules.


    I guess nobody in Erfworld ever thought of having units crap on each other.

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:50 pm 
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    Well the yellow's poo is their weapon, it's like acid or something. For other units dropping the kids off at the pool it would just be stinky.

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:02 pm 
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    the_tick_rules wrote:
    I think it's the gravity exploit. The sonic attack is considered crossing the zone while the poo is considered falling. The yellow dragons aren't attacking technically, they're just pooing and it's just dropping which just happens to be over the troops ;)


    That makes no sense to me. How can their poo be used as a weapon other than having it fall on something? If it's classified as a siege weapon, dropping it from the air is the only way it could be used. So this isn't a technicality, it's using the weapon exactly as intended. As such, I don't see why it's allowed to cross zones when other attacks aren't. (I could accept that it's just a side effect of bombardment attacks if Jetstone realized this as well, but Antium clearly didn't consider the Yellow Dwagons siege capable at all.)

    -H

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:16 pm 
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    Hatu wrote:
    the_tick_rules wrote:
    I think it's the gravity exploit. The sonic attack is considered crossing the zone while the poo is considered falling. The yellow dragons aren't attacking technically, they're just pooing and it's just dropping which just happens to be over the troops ;)


    That makes no sense to me. How can their poo be used as a weapon other than having it fall on something? If it's classified as a siege weapon, dropping it from the air is the only way it could be used. So this isn't a technicality, it's using the weapon exactly as intended. As such, I don't see why it's allowed to cross zones when other attacks aren't. (I could accept that it's just a side effect of bombardment attacks if Jetstone realized this as well, but Antium clearly didn't consider the Yellow Dwagons siege capable at all.)

    -H

    Remember that so far the only side that we know can pop dwagons is GK and as such it would be safe to assume that the other sides' knowledge of their abilities would be quite limited, with the exception of what they've seen in battle before. Also, judging by the trajectories of the crap it seems as if the yellow's can aim it at targets other than straight below themselves, such as another hex or possibly an airborne unit, meaning that dropping straight down isn't its only usage.

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:17 pm 
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    Did anyone else think of this when they heard that purple dragons have "sonic" attacks?

    Image

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:32 pm 
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    Hatu wrote:
    That makes no sense to me. How can their poo be used as a weapon other than having it fall on something? If it's classified as a siege weapon, dropping it from the air is the only way it could be used. So this isn't a technicality, it's using the weapon exactly as intended. As such, I don't see why it's allowed to cross zones when other attacks aren't. (I could accept that it's just a side effect of bombardment attacks if Jetstone realized this as well, but Antium clearly didn't consider the Yellow Dwagons siege capable at all.)


    But that's what the gravity exploit is. Fired arrows, for example, can't cross boundaries. But a dropped arrow can. A targeted breath weapon can't cross boundaries. But a dropped breath weapon can. This is actually something which is known even to Jetstone, as Tramennis was concerned about being hit by yellow dwagon potshots as he was bounding across the courtyard in his tankeroo during his triumphant return to Jetstone.

    I understand it's a bit of a fine distinction, but that's what exploits are. And Rob has spent more than a few updates on setting this up.

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:38 pm 
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    Page 44, panel 4:

    "Honestly, what could they do?" "I dont know. Perhaps bomb the tower?" "Mm, with the yellow dragons,yes."
    This is what completely puzzles me. Tram and his dad were already considering the yellow dragons! They display that they have knowledge about these units and are aware that they can attack ("bomb") them.

    Why the heck they actually can off-turn completely eludes me.

    But that aside Jetstone is aware of this. So why on earth did they put them somewhere where they can actually hurt the garrison? Text update 25 talks about "potshots" the yellows could make at Tram hopping beneath them. Am I confusing the events in the current update with the yellow's normal attack? So what is their normal attack? And is it acidic, too?

    Something here stinks, and it is not just the dwagon cwap. :P

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:59 pm 
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    Geordy wrote:
    Page 44, panel 4:

    "Honestly, what could they do?" "I dont know. Perhaps bomb the tower?" "Mm, with the yellow dragons,yes."
    This is what completely puzzles me. Tram and his dad were already considering the yellow dragons! They display that they have knowledge about these units and are aware that they can attack ("bomb") them.

    Why the heck they actually can off-turn completely eludes me.

    But that aside Jetstone is aware of this. So why on earth did they put them somewhere where they can actually hurt the garrison? Text update 25 talks about "potshots" the yellows could make at Tram hopping beneath them. Am I confusing the events in the current update with the yellow's normal attack? So what is their normal attack? And is it acidic, too?

    Something here stinks, and it is not just the dwagon cwap. :P

    This is precisely what I came to post - how the boop did Jetstone not see this coming? They ordered the dwagons away from where they could kill Slately and doom the side to where they could capture the entire city and all units in it, including Slately - which, since a captured unit appears to be treated as dead as far as Erfworld's mechanics are concerned, is the same thing only worse.

    I've been reading Erfworld long enough to expect that the Titans didn't really make such a huge mistake (or rather, allow Jetstone to make such a huge mistake), but the big reveal better have a damn good explanation.

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:05 pm 
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    Quote:
    Why the heck they actually can off-turn completely eludes me.


    Keep in mind that Erfworld is essentially a giant game simulation with living beings as the units. Those living beings have lives outside of their turn and they can do certain things that are not limited to the turn system. They can talk, plot, have sex, eat, and most importantly for this discussion they take care of bodily functions. It's an exploitable mechanic having a body function that is also an attack. :mrgreen:

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:13 pm 
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    Geordy wrote:
    But that aside Jetstone is aware of this. So why on earth did they put them somewhere where they can actually hurt the garrison? Text update 25 talks about "potshots" the yellows could make at Tram hopping beneath them. Am I confusing the events in the current update with the yellow's normal attack? So what is their normal attack? And is it acidic, too?

    Something here stinks, and it is not just the dwagon cwap. :P


    But why would they attack the garrison? The garrison units can't attack the dwagons, while the archers can. Put the dwagons over the garrison, who will be shielded from their falling corpses, instead of elsewhere which would be over archers where the dwagons might attack back with crap and where falling corpses will do some damage.

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:28 pm 
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    They DID NOT think the yellow dwagons could attack the Atrium. But they DID think the dwagons could attack the Tower.

    The Airspace borders the Tower, remember? You CAN attack from the airspace to the Tower. That is a normal, known thing.

    However, the Courtyard does NOT border the airspace, so you can't attack directly from one to the other without using missile weapons, and even then, only on your turn (or if you own the city, allowing "free" moves between city zones on off-turns).


    They could fire a rock from a sling and it wouldn't cross the boundary to the Atrium roof. But they could drop a rock and it WOULD cross the boundary. But a rock wouldn't cause siege damage...


    From what I gather, Parson is the only person who has realized that dwagon crap counts as a "dropped item" not an attack. So it can cross illegal boundaries on off-turns. AND it causes siege damage.

    Next, they just need to "drop" each other through the openings in the roof.

    The "guided" crap missiles seem a bit odd, I agree. It could be a natural function of yellow dwagon cwap, that it seeks out living targets whenever they're within range or something. That is unexplained. You'd think something that is "dropped" would have to simply fall straight down -- if it was guided, it would be more of a direct attack and thus not cross the boundaries. But hey, things don't always work in expected ways.

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:29 pm 
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    As far as not perceiving the threat from the yellow dwagons, I'm not entirely sure, but according to the first text update in issue 2, units can fire across boundaries in defense when their city is being attacked. I imagine the same applies to the dwagons in this unique situation; they are allowed to fire across zones in defense (from arrows). Trammenis and Slately were probably expecting a bombardment on the towers AFTER Jetstone began firing arrows on the dwagons.

    The other issue then, is Trammenis speculating about a bombardment on the garrison. Trammenis is wiser than most warlords. My guess is GK initiating aggression on the garrison would essentially be considered suicide; it wouldn't help the dwagon's survival from the arrows, and no one is expecting units to fall through the zone boundary.

    Just my two cents.


    Last edited by Magothys on Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:33 pm 
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    name lips wrote:
    They DID NOT think the yellow dwagons could attack the Atrium. But they DID think the dwagons could attack the Tower.
    ...
    From what I gather, Parson is the only person who has realized that dwagon crap counts as a "dropped item" not an attack. So it can cross illegal boundaries on off-turns. AND it causes siege damage.


    Jetstone was indeed aware that yellow dwagons could attack the garrison, Tramennis was thinking about it as he entered the city across the courtyard in his tankeroo.

    And as for the attack on the garrison, Jetstone probably thinks it's a waste of ammo and effort right now, since the ground units are superfluous to the battle in their minds.

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:34 pm 
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    The crap attack was expected. JS didn't take the best measures against it, but that alone won't turn the table, that's why they weren't concerned. The key movement in this battle is the zone crossing fall, along with a mass decryption of friend and foe.

    And hey, Trammenis isn't known for his tactical brilliance.

    edit: aack, beaten.

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     Post Posted: Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:35 pm 
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    luxgladius wrote:
    Archon? Didn't Sylvia slay Ossomer?

    Interesting (and a bit gross) to see the attack begin from the infantry's perspective. Yet the Jetstones knew of the yellows' capabilities, so I feel there must be more to it than is shown here.
    Could be as simple as nobody thought an enemy would exploit the "falling" mechanism with poop off-turn. I didn't think of dropping poop, either, when Wanda and Jack's group was planning.
    \
    Ouze wrote:
    I don't understand how the roof can stop arrows and attacks, and attacks from purple drawgons, but not crap - is that some other category? I don't have a great grasp of Erf physics or rules so maybe this is an elementary question.
    Here's my guess. Cool that Balder's posting, would love for him to correct me if I'm wrong again.

    The roof isn't sturdy. Wasn't meant to withstand attack on an enemy's turn, just disguise the force under it. (And keep the rain out, LOL) Currently the roof may be protected against attack only by the invisible barrier between zones. Said barrier the JS warlords knew would be sufficient to deflect ANY attack on their turn, sonic or otherwise. Surprise surprise, Parson thought of an attack that DOES pass through zone barriers off-turn, and the roof itself is practically no protection overhead.

    Man, if JS doesn't get their troops to run outta the Atrium quickly, could Wanda decrypt a force large enough to take the garrison and tower from the bottom up?!? :twisted:


    Last edited by HailGreen28 on Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:49 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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