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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 45
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:40 pm 
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Lamech wrote:
I really wonder what the magic kingdom will try to claim. Will they try and lie and say: "Oh foolish Jetstone he probably just turned to Haggar and re-turned to GK as soon as he got inside. You shouldn't ally treacherous sides in the future." Or something similar?


people will only be asking questions like this if there are any survivors... nobody knew for sure what Parson did to win at the battle of GK until much later, because there weren't any; if Parson croaks practically everyone then nobody'd even know that a chief warlord suddenly appeared, much less be able to ask "how?"

As for sudden stats changes, maybe they'll just assume that a Stanley changed his mind and promoted a different chief warlord?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 45
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:42 pm 
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    trotsky wrote:
    I don't see why everybody thinks that traveling through the portal would be particularly useful outside of a narrow set of situations.


    Respectfully, I disagree. Traveling through portals is incredibly powerful. They allow instant movement, across any distance, off turn, of an unlimited amount of troops. Game breaking powerful in a world constructed of hexes. On par with the pliers, hammer, dish, whatever else.

    Speculation: Also, although we have no idea how the portals were created (titans, magic, etc)... we do know they can exist. Can they exist elsewhere? Move? What are their limits of size? Beyond the obvious offensive uses... Can you create one underneath an enemy army and simply move that army across the world or into a volcano against their will?

    trotsky wrote:
    The only reason why Parson has a chance of not just dying horribly when he goes through to Spacerock is because he happens to already have an army there. If it were just him, even taking the caster's with him, he would be unlikely to do much and, even if he did, he probably would't survive it. Casters and weird, don't-follow-the-rules warlords are too rare and valuable to send on suicide missions.


    I think the concern is not for the damage Parson and few other casters may do when they attack or if/when another side might attack back... but it is what happens when the entire Magic Kingdom (hundreds? thousands? of casters) decide they can step through the GK portal to express their displeasure of being used as individuals/group. Parson knows that threat exists given GKs current standing in the MK, especially if he attacks now. Yet, he has done nothing to defend his portal (and by extension Stanley). That is weird to me.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 45
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:07 pm 
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    Quote:
    Respectfully, I disagree. Traveling through portals is incredibly powerful. They allow instant movement, across any distance, off turn, of an unlimited amount of troops. Game breaking powerful in a world constructed of hexes. On par with the pliers, hammer, dish, whatever else.

    Portals allow instant movement, between capital cities, if MK casters don't stop you, for casters only.
    This trick will be useful exactly once before a) MK guards the portals better, b) capitals guard their portal rooms better and until c) There are powerful AND less expendable units than the ultrarare casters. Potent, but very all-eggs-in-one-basket. That's just what Parson's luck keeps presenting him with, and what most other sides would just knuckle under and raise the white flag.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 45
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:16 pm 
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    Kizmet wrote:
    trotsky wrote:
    I don't see why everybody thinks that traveling through the portal would be particularly useful outside of a narrow set of situations.


    Respectfully, I disagree. Traveling through portals is incredibly powerful. They allow instant movement, across any distance, off turn, of an unlimited amount of troops. Game breaking powerful in a world constructed of hexes. On par with the pliers, hammer, dish, whatever else.


    As I see it, there isn't an unlimited number of troops. Only casters and Parson can use the portals. Since it is rare for any side to have more than a handful of casters the practical applications of portals as an avenue for attack by any of the known sides (Note: I am NOT counting the magic kingdom as a side) are rather limited. More about the magic kingdom below.

    Kizmet wrote:
    trotsky wrote:
    The only reason why Parson has a chance of not just dying horribly when he goes through to Spacerock is because he happens to already have an army there. If it were just him, even taking the caster's with him, he would be unlikely to do much and, even if he did, he probably would't survive it. Casters and weird, don't-follow-the-rules warlords are too rare and valuable to send on suicide missions.


    I think the concern is not for the damage Parson and few other casters may do when they attack or if/when another side might attack back... but it is what happens when the entire Magic Kingdom (hundreds? thousands? of casters) decide they can step through the GK portal to express their displeasure of being used as individuals/group. Parson knows that threat exists given GKs current standing in the MK, especially if he attacks now. Yet, he has done nothing to defend his portal (and by extension Stanley). That is weird to me.


    If the entire magic kingdom (or even just a large enough part of it) decided to attack GK through the portals then I highly doubt there is anything that can be done to stop it whether you post guards or not. The only way for Stanley to survive would be to leave the tower as, since it is unknown whether the magic kingdom has its own turns, they may be unable to cross any zone boundaries he flees through.

    Also, and this is pure speculation on my part, the Magic Kingdom might not care about sending caster's to the wrong sides capital as it would, generally, be a dumb thing to do with your valuable casters. It's possible that, were it not PARSON (a warlord) doing the run they would simply make a note not to work for the side that tried it. A note they could put right next to the already existing note about not working for GK. This does assume a relatively apathetic magic kingdom.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 45
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:20 pm 
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    This looks like an example of how Parson can win every battle but will lose the war.
    Assuming he's done the calculations and the odds of actually pulling it off are better than even, there are so many variables that could cause it to go wrong.

    Isn't it possible Janice and The perdicamancer are waiting at the portal for Sizemore to return and will, at least accidently, stop him from creating the tunnel?
    If Parson does make it Jetstone, what's to stop TMK from sending a snatch-squad after him to grab him? They can force their way into any situation and claim that it's "TMK business" and he's a renegade caster - whose to stop them?
    Once he gets there - this is the guy who just tripped over his own cape, and he's going into combat single-handed...

    And then if it all works out and he wins - then what?
    There's no way back through TMK - and Charlie has next move.
    Ultimately he will have forced TMK to cease being neutral and pick sides - and it won't be his side they pick.

    Unless he has some secret knowledge that Janice and the rulers of TMK are at least complicit in, if not actively directing, his actions on Erfworld this is a huge risk with no longterm upside.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 45
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:33 pm 
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    Lamech wrote:
    I really wonder what the magic kingdom will try to claim. Will they try and lie and say: "Oh foolish Jetstone he probably just turned to Haggar and re-turned to GK as soon as he got inside. You shouldn't ally treacherous sides in the future." Or something similar?


    Thing is, I'm not convinced the MK is a single entity which is going to "Try to claim" something. As far as we've seen, it's just the place that casters go - there isn't a defined authority or representatives which will "try to claim" something. Each caster will say what they want to their rulers, if anything; perhaps there will be some consensus opinion as to what happened among casters, perhaps there won't.

    (I don't think your turning idea would be too believable, but then again Parson does unbelievable things, so it might be no less believable than what actually will happen)

    ...heck, in general, I see everyone here talking about what The Magic Kingdom will do. Maybe I should start a separate thread, because I don't really see the leadership structure there for "TMK to do" anything as a kingdom. Yeah, that's a discussion for a separate thread, I'll search and see if there already is one...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 45
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:46 pm 
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    gazes_also wrote:
    Unless he has some secret knowledge that Janice and the rulers of TMK are at least complicit in, if not actively directing, his actions on Erfworld this is a huge risk with no longterm upside.


    Not sure how you can say there's no long-term upside... the survival of Wanda and the retention of the Arkenpliers is pretty much the ball game, in Parson's own words.

    Again, this may be a circumstance where the immediate tactical need drives the longer-term strategy. This is seldom an ideal situation, but it is often the reality when presented with crises.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 45
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:57 pm 
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    Unless Parson or one of the others spills the beans, I doubt seriously if anyone will be able to implicate the MK in pretty much anything. The MK dwellers will be left with a tunnel leading from GK's portal to the JS portal, so they will be able to figure it out. But it most certainly would NOT be in their best interest to come forward with any explanations involving them. If anything, they'll embargo GK or send Explosive Rune nastygrams.

    Since Parson already has a rep for being the Perfect Warlord (in a very small circle), this will only enhance his rep (assuming he doesn't fall flat on his face during combat). Charley will doubtless figure it out, as he's in the intel biz, but once again, it's not something he's going to spread about. You're also assuming that there'll be anyone left on the JS side to carry tales (except for Tremennis, I hope). Since all the action is topside, the poor solitary schmuck in the red shirt guarding the portal is toast. And by the time that JS is aware that Parson Is In The House, they'll be too busy trying to stay alive / actively dying to engage in any deep speculations.

    Given that Parson is a relative unknown (what, maybe a dozen units outside of GK are aware of his existence), this will probably be as deep cover as Project Ultra was until after it doesn't matter any more. I think the way this is going to shake down is when Trem tries to send a thinkagram to Parson, he's going to realize (to his horror) that Parson is standing right behind him . . . (Get Out Of There Now!! The Thinkagram Is Coming From INSIDE THE CASTLE!!!!)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 45
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:07 pm 
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    The 'upside' is exactly like Ansom pointed out, the continued ability to run roughshod over sides with very little repercussion, though the character everyone has an opinion on is going to start cutting the lines between GK and the front, which is the downside to large and aggressive sides that don't get rid of all their neighbors, though arguably Parson may not have known about Faq's rebirth, or at the very least where it is...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 45
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 6:58 pm 
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    gazes_also wrote:
    And then if it all works out and he wins - then what?


    Then he'll presumably be sitting pretty in a Level 5 ex-Capital city, with an above-average defendable Garrison zone, guarded by at least one Arkentool-wielding caster, and an unknown number of mostly/completely decrypted units as defenders, including archers, dwagons, warlords and assorted casters.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 45
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:00 pm 
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    Krennson wrote:
    Dante wrote:
    Of course, that was all he could do at the time, since he wasn't CWL yet. I have a feeling Parson's big plan still relies heavily on the use of force multipliers, though.

    Remember that bit about what they could do off-turn, like promoting units, equipping and rationing? Well, we did see Parson equip and promote himself, but I believe what we'll see happen is that every humanoid unit that remains after the big fall, either through survival or decryption, Parson will dip into the treasury to promote them to a Warlord and upgrade their weapon bonus.

    This is basically a one time cost since Decrypted have zero upkeep. It's also not breaking any rules, since you can apparently have as many command units as you want in a stack. Cross-multiplying the bonuses they will then have will make the resulting smaller ground force exponentially stronger than the already-powerful air force they already had.


    I don't think we have any evidence that more than one warlord can give their bonus to a single stack simultanously.


    Just had to register to reply to this. Has no one else spotted the earlier "Food fight" reference? Out of turn Parson can repeatedly re-ration his flying units above the city. What do dragons eat for breakfast and would it hurt? Remember Bogroll's umbrella?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 45
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:38 pm 
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    dmorenus wrote:
    You know, meaning Parson! Kizmet is pointing out that Parson is not making any obvious effort to prevent Spacerock or anyone else from counter-attacking using the MK just as he is about to do. If nobody else finds out about his tactic or is able to replicate it, fine, but it does seem like he's about to publish an exploit without protecting himself against it.
    Can you name another Side which has units other than casters who can enter the MK without croaking? Certainly there are none other than GK of which we are aware.

    This is why there is no need for GK to guard its own portal: No other Side has Parson. No other Side can send a CWL into the MK accompanying casters as an offensive tactic. And we have only seen casters who were well supported enter into combat situations: Sizemore with his golems, Wanda with her flying uncroaked, Wanda with the Thriller army, Maggy hiding behind Parson and throwing out a Hoboken, Maggy using scrolls from well behind the lines. The only time we've seen a caster alone in combat was Sizemore against Webinar and Dora. But then he cast a spell to rebuild a golem which proceeded to one hit kill them, so he sure wasn't alone for long.

    Other SIdes, after they figure things out and think about the ramifications for a while may indeed decide that risking their casters on an offensive strike might be worthwhile. But I highly doubt it.

    Think about the limitations:

    GK has an army in the target city and/or hex (not looking to fire up a "how many hexes is a city" debate, I think/hope that it will become clear during this battle).
    GK has a CWL to travel with and guard the fragile casters past whatever defenses they may encounter.
    GK has a CWL with a mathamancy bracer which is telling him that his Side has a chance, while every other estimation by anyone of the coming battle has positioned it as a slaughter of the GK forces.

    So, any time another Side happens to have an army in an opposing city, they might be tempted to send in unescorted casters to assist in what appears to everyone be a suicidal fight. That'll be happening often, no?
    Kizmet wrote:
    trotsky wrote:
    I don't see why everybody thinks that traveling through the portal would be particularly useful outside of a narrow set of situations.
    Respectfully, I disagree. Traveling through portals is incredibly powerful. They allow instant movement, across any distance, off turn, of an unlimited amount of troops.
    Er, you had me until the last point. Please name me another unit other than a caster or Parson who we have proof can enter the MK and live. There are none. Thus, your "unlimited amount of troops" becomes rapidly reduced to "Parson and casters." Only one Side has Parson. Only one Side that we have seen has a lot of casters.
    Lamech wrote:
    As for sudden stats changes, maybe they'll just assume that a Stanley changed his mind and promoted a different chief warlord?
    And this is assuming that units can view the stats of units from other Sides. We've seen two viewings of unit stats, both by Parson, and both of units on his Side. We know the glasses are to compensate Parson for a weakness the Erf-born do not have, but I do not recall any indication other than via magic (Duncan's item) that there is a way to get an idea of another unit's stats. Jillian knew Webinar and Dora's level, but she was at the time an allied unit, which may make all the difference.
    gazes_also wrote:
    This looks like an example of how Parson can win every battle but will lose the war.
    [snippage]
    If Parson does make it Jetstone, what's to stop TMK from sending a snatch-squad after him to grab him? They can force their way into any situation and claim that it's "TMK business" and he's a renegade caster - whose to stop them?
    Meh, you are granting the MK a level of FBI-like organization that it has not displayed. We have no evidence that the MK has ever "force[ed] their way into any situation and claim[ed] that it's "TMK business"" So why attribute that kind of behavior to them now? It seems completely out of character for what we have seen.
    Carne wrote:
    gazes_also wrote:
    And then if it all works out and he wins - then what?


    Then he'll presumably be sitting pretty in a Level 5 ex-Capital city, with an above-average defendable Garrison zone, guarded by at least one Arkentool-wielding caster, and an unknown number of mostly/completely decrypted units as defenders, including archers, dwagons, warlords and assorted casters.
    Heh, this. ;)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 45
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 10:19 pm 
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    ftl wrote:
    (I don't think your turning idea would be too believable, but then again Parson does unbelievable things, so it might be no less believable than what actually will happen)
    Yeah, but if it is "impossible" for enemy units to use your portal clearly Parson wasn't an enemy unit. So either Parson has a cool new unheard of super-power or someone let him in. Of course what gets let in is speculation so we don't know what would be plausible. (I for one assume that enemy units can't use your portal.)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 45
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:09 am 
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    Oberon wrote:
    And this is assuming that units can view the stats of units from other Sides. We've seen two viewings of unit stats, both by Parson, and both of units on his Side. We know the glasses are to compensate Parson for a weakness the Erf-born do not have, but I do not recall any indication other than via magic (Duncan's item) that there is a way to get an idea of another unit's stats.


    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F018.jpg, panel 10.

    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F040a.jpg, first paragraph.

    (edit) Oops, units from other sides. I missed that. Guess I'm sleepy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 45
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:02 am 
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    Siglorel wrote:
    Just had to register to reply to this. Has no one else spotted the earlier "Food fight" reference? Out of turn Parson can repeatedly re-ration his flying units above the city. What do dragons eat for breakfast and would it hurt? Remember Bogroll's umbrella?


    Um, there's about 6 months worth of discussion on it, culminating in the idea that Parson intends to

    1. Resupply and drop rations
    2. Harvest mounts, thus converting them into food, which means they'll drop
    3. Allow some drogons to get killed so they'll drop
    4. Some combination of all that.

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     Post Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:13 am 
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    Panel 4

    heheh... Arkenshovel.

    ...

    That might actually be pretty cool. Akendish deals with communication, Arkenpliers are a jaws of life reference(ish), Arkenhammer is... someone else probably already covered it. An Arkenshovel could be, like, an ultimate thinkamancy tool, digging into the hearts and minds of foes and allies alike.


    Or, you know, dig sh...tuff.


    Last edited by Skittles on Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 45
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:13 am 
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    Things will seem to go awesomely -- until they start going badly. That's how battles work in this comic, remember?

    So Parson gets into Spacerock, and things start going well. Then I think Ace and Cubbins will pull something out of a hat... not sure Parson knows to factor in Ace Hardware when planning his strategy, especially since Ace seems to be secretly amassing a pile of items that don't fit with normal Jetstone strategies.

    So things go wrong. The only GK units in Spacerock who have Plot Immunity to Death are Wanda and Jack (even if only because the mystery of Faq still needs full exposition). They are casters, and can escape with Parson back through the portal if need be.

    Though I see things going poorly for Parson and GK, forcing this retreat, I don't necessarily think it will go any better for Jetstone. I think Slately will die and Trem will escape as a barbarian. Trem will make a deal with Charlie, gaining enough Schmuckers to reclaim his other capital site and start up the Jetstone side again.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 45
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 2:17 am 
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    name lips wrote:
    The only GK units in Spacerock who have Plot Immunity to Death are Wanda and Jack (even if only because the mystery of Faq still needs full exposition).

    You only need one person to tell a story. I learned that from Mulan.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 45
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:47 am 
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    Skittles wrote:
    name lips wrote:
    The only GK units in Spacerock who have Plot Immunity to Death are Wanda and Jack (even if only because the mystery of Faq still needs full exposition).

    You only need one person to tell a story. I learned that from Mulan.


    But to kill Wanda now would be like killing Aragorn right after he receives Andúril. To kill Parson, well, it would be as dramatic as killing Sauron before Frodo gets anywhere near Mount Doom.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 45
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:19 am 
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    danhaas wrote:
    Skittles wrote:
    name lips wrote:
    The only GK units in Spacerock who have Plot Immunity to Death are Wanda and Jack (even if only because the mystery of Faq still needs full exposition).

    You only need one person to tell a story. I learned that from Mulan.


    But to kill Wanda now would be like killing Aragorn right after he receives Andúril. To kill Parson, well, it would be as dramatic as killing Sauron before Frodo gets anywhere near Mount Doom.


    I disagree with you. Killing Parson would be like killing Frodo HIMSELF a day after he leaves his village :D

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