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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:45 pm 
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Lamech wrote:
Or Parson has some new trick to avoid disbandment. Which a summer update implied was the case. (Or Stanley doesn't know the disbanding rules all that well.)
I believe that Stanley knows the disbanding rules quite well. And I believe that they can be primarily summarized as follows:

If a unit willfully disobeys an order, it disbands.

Parson did not know that he was failing to obey the intent of Stanley's order when he failed to walk the city. Thus, he did not disband. This is a situation unique to Parson, who does not pop knowing the rules and thus can fail to disobey out of ignorance rather than willful disobedience. Parson was ordered to "managing the capital city", but not to walk it. Out of ignorance he failed to walk it, which led to a failure to manage it. But it was stated quite directly that Pasron simply didn't know that failing to walk it meant failing to manage it. And if there was any question about Parson having to obey Stanley's orders, the order to slap himself should have dispelled all doubt.

There is no doubt a lot more complexity to the disbanding rules, including clauses for obeying a greater call to Duty, "making a play for the throne" and turning. But those do not apply to the case you referenced.

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     Post subject: Re: crazy speculation
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:50 pm 
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    BCCroaker wrote:
    Oberon wrote:
    In canon, we have seen a non-casting unit commit suicide by stepping through the MK portal. Parson also stepped through the MK portal, and did not die. Thus, by all evidence, he must be either a caster or have some unknown to anyone on Erf exception to that mechanic. When you hear the thunder of hooves, it is more reasonable to expect to find horses than zebras. Similarly, when we have a known mechanic, it is more reasonable to apply the known remedy than to hypothesize that there must be some new rule in force.


    Occam's razor restated for Erfworld! Woot!
    I actually heard that used by a doctor discussing patient diagnosis. It does convey very well to Occam's Razor. It also would cause the show House to have failed in its pilot. :lol: That is a show based around an ongoing premise that zebras are far more likely than horses.

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    So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:29 am 
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    Quote:
    I actually heard that used by a doctor discussing patient diagnosis. It does convey very well to Occam's Razor. It also would cause the show House to have failed in its pilot. :lol: That is a show based around an ongoing premise that zebras are far more likely than horses.


    Occam's Razor is a useful tool but isn't a cure all. In Parson's case we know casters can enter the MK, we no non caster die when they enter the MK, he doesn't have caster in his goggles view but he has "special", since we don't have any real further information we can decide that he is most likely a caster or special counts him a caster for MK check. This doesn't prove anything and hence the endless speculation that has gone with his status.

    For House you have an entirely different problem. Patient has symptoms A, B, C, D and ineviatably E, F and G appear later in the episode. Generally when they get to House himself the usual explanations for A,B,C have been tried but don't fit. The main problem is that there are a huge set of different conditions(lets call them v,x,y,z) that might cause A,B,C,D but they must be discarded when E appears, then they test their new hypothesis(generally by bullying patient or breaking into their home). When new explanation doesn't work they cast the net further afield.

    So your standard House scene goes:

    Patient has A,B,C

    Short one :That means they have x

    House: No fool! I have already noticed sympton D which you are too foolish to see and have concluded y explains more.

    Annoying one: Looking left more than right doesn't indicate brain cancer!

    House: Cut open there brain and prove me wrong then!

    After brain is open, they of course find sympton E.

    Short one: It must be z then.

    House: Or is could be x combined with v. (which generally involves some half fatal treatment)

    Annoying one: But z is simpler and more easily treatable!

    House: Nah I'm sooo right.

    Essentially House is just an extended form of Occam's Razor just with incomplete data sets, which is where you get the drama.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:30 am 
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    Well Houses's thing is figuring out the irregular cases. By the very nature of them being his patient the easiest solutions have been exhausted, otherwise they wouldn't be there. But this is abour erf.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 5:44 am 
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    Darkmantle wrote:
    So your standard House scene goes:

    Patient has A,B,C

    Short one :That means they have x

    House: No fool! I have already noticed sympton D which you are too foolish to see and have concluded y explains more.

    Annoying one: Looking left more than right doesn't indicate brain cancer!

    House: Cut open there brain and prove me wrong then!

    After brain is open, they of course find sympton E.

    Short one: It must be z then.

    House: Or is could be x combined with v. (which generally involves some half fatal treatment)

    Annoying one: But z is simpler and more easily treatable!

    House: Nah I'm sooo right.

    Essentially House is just an extended form of Occam's Razor just with incomplete data sets, which is where you get the drama.

    :lol:
    Great Summary

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:11 am 
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    Darkmantle wrote:
    Quote:
    For House you have an entirely different problem. Patient has symptoms A, B, C, D and ineviatably E, F and G appear later in the episode. Generally when they get to House himself the usual explanations for A,B,C have been tried but don't fit. The main problem is that there are a huge set of different conditions(lets call them v,x,y,z) that might cause A,B,C,D but they must be discarded when E appears, then they test their new hypothesis(generally by bullying patient or breaking into their home). When new explanation doesn't work they cast the net further afield.


    So... It's not w?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:31 am 
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    W is lupus

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:38 am 
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    splintermute wrote:
    Nice catch, although in your original post you specified that you were talking about Wagner's version. Also, it can't be an invisibility cloak, since we can still see Parson (maybe he has to press the power button in the clasp?)

    In the Nibelungenlied, Mime forged (and Alberich, and then Fafner and then Siegfried stole) the Tarnhelm, which is a hat, and allows you to change forms.

    BCCroaker wrote:
    Since most of this kit is loaded with media references how about this-
    Tattered cloak = tarnkappe or cloak of invisibility, most recently seen in the Harry Potter books and movies. Parson hits the power button and bingo! The easy way to go through the MK without trouble.
    And maybe job Slately and Trem.


    Ah, like Siegried in Wagner's Nibelungenleid? That was a cape or cloak wasn't it? That makes perfect sense!


    No, its a cloak in the poem (kappe as in cape not cap) and rendered Siegfried invisible not changing his shape. Wagner changed it to a helm etc for the opera (Der Ring des Nibelungen not the Nibelungenlied) - probablworked better on stage for Siegfried to take Gunther's form. Also a quick google informs me that it was a cloak of invisiblity in most other forms of the story.
    Anyway, this is irrelvant to my original post which was citing Harry Potter's use of it, since all the rest of the known kit is from TV and movie sources.[/quote][/quote]

    Sorry for confusing the two. I have read parts of Der Ring des Nibelungen (translated), so I assume that is where the idea of the cape came from; of course, after thinking about it, I am also in complete agreement that Siegfried did use a helm in the Nibelungenleid (which I have not seen since 1994). Eh, my brain gets more porous with age, lol.

    Still, I think the tarnkappe is the most likely candidate for Parson's newly-donned cape/cloak (does it have a hood?).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:40 am 
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    Oberon wrote:
    I believe that Stanley knows the disbanding rules quite well.
    Stanley thought Parson should have disbanded. So either Stanley doesn't understand disbanding all that well, Parson has some trick to avoid disbandment or both. Both seem semi-plausible: Every unit is popped with a self-destruct; Parson was not born with this power, just like he was not given seeable stats, but neither was he born with leadership. Stanley isn't all that bright and he probably doesn't understand the finer points of erfworld, but this shouldn't be all that hard. So we have too things that are plausible, but could very well not be true.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 11:35 am 
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    Stanley, as an erfworlder, doesn't understand the concept of "disobeying orders unintentionally", since he never saw a warlord actually "fail" managing a city before. So, he thinks Parson willingfully disobeyed his order and should have been disbanded for that reason. He knows about disbanding mechanics that much, but what he fails to see is that Parson did NOT disobey him willingfully. And we can't really blame Stanley for that.

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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:31 pm 
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    First post, just had to spit out my thoughts at this point. Haven't read the forums much so I'm not sure how common my expectations are.

    I just can't wait until Parson turns or creates his own side, and now that he is decked out with magical items he could easily consider it (as he can defend himself now). I know it is inevitable, and he is simply biding his time to learn all the detailed mechanics of Erf. I'm pretty sure he's got the majority of basic knowledge down at this point, otherwise he wouldn't go out of his way to be in a live combat zone. I know I wouldn't.

    Charlie could possibly be another Earthling that got transported to Erf, and he has stated his interest in meeting (obtaining) Parson, so he did what Parson will no doubt want to do eventually: create an elite force and find a nice spot in the mountains to wall off all threats. Heck, Parson is probably the "Titan". Waiting for him to have his Neo/Kevin Flynn moment when he discovers he has godlike powers.

    I like Tram too much for him to just get stabbed by Parson. I have a feeling he will be the key to Parson getting turned from GK. :ugeek:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:40 pm 
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    Welcome to the forums. Charlie being from earth is a popular theory. I dunno about Parson starting his own side though. Not that it's impossible though.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:44 pm 
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    Hmm, Parson ruling his own side. I think that would be the end of the erfworld.

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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post subject: Re: crazy speculation
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:28 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    I'm not in either camp. I dislike the idea that Parson is a hippymancer, and there is enough "Special" about Parson that just about any exception to any rule can be reasonably theorized. But I can't say that there isn't ample evidence which would allow someone to reasonably arrive at the conclusion that Janice called it correctly and that the portal therefore acted correctly.


    Hamster is "special". So far, this included:
    -Nobody can see his stats besides his level. Why would the portal security system fare any better?
    -Erfworld's built-in global censorship collapsed when Hamster got really pissed off.
    -He can interpret orders in multiple ways.

    So hell yes, Hamster has a large historial of simply trampling over Erfworld's rules.

    Thus screw whatever's razor. We're not in a place where horses are expected, we're on a place where zebras raining from the skies while playing guitar would be the more common thing. Togheter with hoof sounds.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:15 pm 
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    Also "Parson is a Hippymancer" smacks of the conspiracy that janis is advancing on the outside world...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:38 pm 
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    zilfallon wrote:
    Hmm, Parson ruling his own side. I think that would be the end of the erfworld.


    Actually, I... I disagree. I think that if Hamster ruled his own side, Erfworld would probably go back to being fairly normal.

    Parson doesn't actually *want* to conquer sides. He doesn't like the destruction he causes. He does it because he's a gamer and he wants to *win* (and Loyalty/Duty etc) - and, being a Warlord, he doesn't get to set what the victory conditions are. Stanley and Wanda put him in a situation where, to avoid the destruction of his side, he has to do terrible things. And he does.

    However, if he had his own side, he wouldn't have the motivation to go out and invade other sides. He'd probably be smart enough to provide for his own defense, but might not go much further than that. He'd be of like Banhammer in FAQ, but probably better-defended. Maybe sort of like Charlie, but less determined to screw over the people he works with and less intent on *expanding* his sphere of influence.

    And the world outside of Hamster's little side would go back to normal, with petty wars and so on.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:58 pm 
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    ftl wrote:
    zilfallon wrote:
    Hmm, Parson ruling his own side. I think that would be the end of the erfworld.


    Actually, I... I disagree. I think that if Hamster ruled his own side, Erfworld would probably go back to being fairly normal.

    Parson doesn't actually *want* to conquer sides. He doesn't like the destruction he causes. He does it because he's a gamer and he wants to *win* (and Loyalty/Duty etc) - and, being a Warlord, he doesn't get to set what the victory conditions are. Stanley and Wanda put him in a situation where, to avoid the destruction of his side, he has to do terrible things. And he does.

    However, if he had his own side, he wouldn't have the motivation to go out and invade other sides. He'd probably be smart enough to provide for his own defense, but might not go much further than that. He'd be of like Banhammer in FAQ, but probably better-defended. Maybe sort of like Charlie, but less determined to screw over the people he works with and less intent on *expanding* his sphere of influence.

    And the world outside of Hamster's little side would go back to normal, with petty wars and so on.


    Hmm. You're right actually. Hamster doesn't have the motivation.

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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:00 pm 
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    MaleAlphaThree wrote:
    I just can't wait until Parson turns or creates his own side, and now that he is decked out with magical items he could easily consider it (as he can defend himself now). I know it is inevitable, and he is simply biding his time to learn all the detailed mechanics of Erf.


    I'm not sure Parson can form his own side. In my mind, a "perfect warlord" would be 100%, perfectly, loyal. The spell, which can compel him to obey Stanley's orders, might prevent him from ever considering leaving. Alternatively, the slacker nature that kept him working at Kinko's might do that.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:11 pm 
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool This user is a part of Erfworld canon! Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
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    justamessenger wrote:
    Still, I think the tarnkappe is the most likely candidate for Parson's newly-donned cape/cloak (does it have a hood?).

    Hard to say, the rear view look we get in panel 2 is a bit ambiguous.
    Anyway, onto the sword. What properites does Glamdring have? From memory fantastically sharp, never needs honing, probably unbreakable and hurts Balrogs; though that could be from the Secret Fire within Gandalf being used through the sword. Also glows when creatures of evil are near, particualrly goblins and orcs. Not too useful a power for the chief warlord of Gobwins Knob, you might think, but could be useful for locating the missing gobwins later on.
    Have owcs been seen yet in Erfworld?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:01 pm 
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    what happens when, because Parson is Parson, his side doesn't use underlings for sex etc. - doesn't basically do the things erfworld "expects" to be done/is normal, and the various other sides decide this is an aberration that needs to be exterminated because it's making their own people unhappy ("I'd rather automatically disband than live this way. Heck, there's a side down south where their overlord DOES allow them to live like this!" We do know, that erf-lings do question what life is all about - Janis, Tramennis etc. - everybody with any introspection, basically), and there's an anti-Parson coalition as a result? Then the only way for Parson to live the way he does is to win over the entire world so he can establish his rules everywhere :-)

    ftl wrote:
    zilfallon wrote:
    Hmm, Parson ruling his own side. I think that would be the end of the erfworld.


    Actually, I... I disagree. I think that if Hamster ruled his own side, Erfworld would probably go back to being fairly normal.

    Parson doesn't actually *want* to conquer sides. He doesn't like the destruction he causes. He does it because he's a gamer and he wants to *win* (and Loyalty/Duty etc) - and, being a Warlord, he doesn't get to set what the victory conditions are. Stanley and Wanda put him in a situation where, to avoid the destruction of his side, he has to do terrible things. And he does.

    However, if he had his own side, he wouldn't have the motivation to go out and invade other sides. He'd probably be smart enough to provide for his own defense, but might not go much further than that. He'd be of like Banhammer in FAQ, but probably better-defended. Maybe sort of like Charlie, but less determined to screw over the people he works with and less intent on *expanding* his sphere of influence.

    And the world outside of Hamster's little side would go back to normal, with petty wars and so on.

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