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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
 Post Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:24 am 
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DoctorJest, I don't think that Ossomer is still JS's heir, but we are discussing what would happen IF he was still the heir.

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I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:13 pm 
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    Muddball wrote:
    That is the Mac Power button (on/off) on his cloak.


    Not unless Apple invented the ON/OFF switch, fanboi.

    I'm having a lot of trouble finding any electronics in my home that do NOT use that symbol, including my vacuum cleaner. This very site uses it for Login/Logout (look at the top right corner of your screen.) See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_symbol

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 6:47 pm 
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    The worst? Off the top of my head...

    Jetstone falls, Everyone on that side gets decrypted to GK's side, Charley is exposed as actively opposing GK and then GK goes and kicks his ass, dominating Erfworld.

    ...That's the worst for JETSTONE. For us readers, that might be mildly amusing.

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     Post subject: Re: crazy speculation
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:50 pm 
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    oslecamo2 wrote:
    zilfallon wrote:
    So...which loyalty is stronger? I mean, if Wanda becomes Ossomer's heir, it means that Ossomer is her ruler. Will the mind-control of Arkenpliers prove stronger than the game-mechanics? Will they let the heir kill her ruler easly?


    Pliers fanatism overrides even Chief Warlord status. Ansom could only shut up when Wanda said she was charging ahead by herself.

    However...

    -Ossomer is still a GK unit. IF he inherits Jetstone, then Stanley is still his ruler. You need to kill Stanley. That is a melee monster with an honor guard of fanatic flying dwagons. Good luck with that even with her decrypted army.

    -Only the Chief Warlord and the leader can give orders to spend money I believe. So even if Ossomer becomes the ruler, Wanda still needs to find the cash to pay her heirship.

    -We don't even know if mancers can be nominated heirs. It seems like you need to be a warlord to rule in Erfworld.


    If it is true that Parson is a hippiemancer, then we know that mancers can be warlords. Which might or might not mean they can also be heirs and/or rulers.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:09 pm 
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    I would suspect that if the Schmuckers are expended, a ruler could appoint who/whatever they wanted as heir. Of course, social, political, and military pressures being what they are, it's almost always a CWL.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:58 am 
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    :lol: Tram IS being consistent. He enthusiastically bounced into Jetstone on that 'roo right under all of the hovering yellow dwagons, only realizing how dangerous his position was when he was squarely within their range. Considering how tactically and strategically significant an indicator that was, and considering that that parallels him potentially exposing Slately in the interest of 'wanting answers...' Yeah, if he does take Slately out on the balcony in these circumstances, its foolish. And considering how little we've seen of Tram, its perfectly in character. Slately croaking wouldn't make Tram any more dead than the acidic battlecrap would have.

    Also, something interesting - if a CW can promote himself in abilities, can he promote himself in level as well? Or promotion to other things, like an advanced field unit with increased move? Or flight capablilty, like the archons? Or the ability to see through foolamancy? I'm sure that it would take schmuckers, but imagine! Instead of being level 2, GK spends money and he's now a lvl 8 or 10 and is able to keep up with a strike force. The increased lvl bonus would be welcome at any rate.

    Suicide strike by a yellow dwagon buffed with a luckamancy scroll FTW! :lol:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:27 am 
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    Sieggy wrote:
    I would suspect that if the Schmuckers are expended, a ruler could appoint who/whatever they wanted as heir. Of course, social, political, and military pressures being what they are, it's almost always a CWL.


    You want your heir to be your CWL as loyalty is strongest for them and they would be less likely to conspire against the ruler.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:44 am 
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    Sieggy wrote:
    I would suspect that if the Schmuckers are expended, a ruler could appoint who/whatever they wanted as heir.


    would a royal be cheaper to promote into an heir? (or... more expensive??)

    we know Jillian has an heir due (talk about an active pregnancy). is anyone else intensely curious what on earth this heir will be like?? Tramennis is nothing like Slately (and, in fact, neither is Ansom or Ossomer).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:58 am 
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    Kender Wizard wrote:
    Also, something interesting - if a CW can promote himself in abilities, can he promote himself in level as well? Or promotion to other things, like an advanced field unit with increased move? Or flight capablilty, like the archons? Or the ability to see through foolamancy? I'm sure that it would take schmuckers, but imagine! Instead of being level 2, GK spends money and he's now a lvl 8 or 10 and is able to keep up with a strike force. The increased lvl bonus would be welcome at any rate.


    I don't think that's the case here. If it was possible to make warlords level up by spending schmuckers, Stanley would have done it to make a dashing max level warlord instead of buying the scroll. Or at least would have tried to, and be convinced by Wanda, but that's not the case here.

    Parson didn't "buy stats". He promoted a unit from Garrison to Field by spending scmuckers. That can be done by all CWL and rulers it seems. Reason his "move stat" increased is the promotion. Garrison units have 0 move. Field units have more than 0.

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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post subject: Re: crazy speculation
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:58 am 
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    Morgaln wrote:
    If it is true that Parson is a hippiemancer, then we know that mancers can be warlords. Which might or might not mean they can also be heirs and/or rulers.


    Please, I'm geting tired of that theory whitout any real foundation.

    Have we seen Hamster cast any spells of any school? No, we've just seen him do

    Did the other mancers at MK recognize Hamster as a mancer, hippie or not? Nope, they were all ready to take him down.

    The great abbey just called Hamster a hippiemancer to stop the MK from croacking Hamster.
    That's what she does, she stops conflict. And by calling Hamster a hippiemancer instead of anything else she was basically puting him under her direct protection while on the MK, since she's hippiemancer queen. If she was willing to take direct responsability of him, that would calm down the other trigger-happy mancers.

    Fact is, the great Abbey had all reasons to lie to the MK members to protect Hamster, and he has still to use magic. So he's not a mancer. Point.

    This is, if Hamster was a mancer, don't you think he would've asked someone to teach him how to use it during all this time?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:53 am 
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    Nice catch, although in your original post you specified that you were talking about Wagner's version. Also, it can't be an invisibility cloak, since we can still see Parson (maybe he has to press the power button in the clasp?)

    BCCroaker wrote:
    splintermute wrote:
    It's clearly a Wienerrammer-skin cloak. Since they're heavies that are used as battering rams, they clearly have tough skin - maybe it's bullet/arrowproof?

    In the Nibelungenlied, Mime forged (and Alberich, and then Fafner and then Siegfried stole) the Tarnhelm, which is a hat, and allows you to change forms.

    BCCroaker wrote:
    Since most of this kit is loaded with media references how about this-
    Tattered cloak = tarnkappe or cloak of invisibility, most recently seen in the Harry Potter books and movies. Parson hits the power button and bingo! The easy way to go through the MK without trouble.
    And maybe job Slately and Trem.


    Ah, like Siegried in Wagner's Nibelungenleid? That was a cape or cloak wasn't it? That makes perfect sense!


    No, its a cloak in the poem (kappe as in cape not cap) and rendered Siegfried invisible not changing his shape. Wagner changed it to a helm etc for the opera (Der Ring des Nibelungen not the Nibelungenlied) - probably worked better on stage for Siegfried to take Gunther's form. Also a quick google informs me that it was a cloak of invisiblity in most other forms of the story.
    Anyway, this is irrelvant to my original post which was citing Harry Potter's use of it, since all the rest of the known kit is from TV and movie sources.

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     Post subject: Re: crazy speculation
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:29 pm 
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    oslecamo2 wrote:
    Morgaln wrote:
    If it is true that Parson is a hippiemancer, then we know that mancers can be warlords. Which might or might not mean they can also be heirs and/or rulers.


    Please, I'm geting tired of that theory whitout any real foundation.

    [...]

    Fact is, the great Abbey had all reasons to lie to the MK members to protect Hamster, and he has still to use magic. So he's not a mancer. Point.


    Well, if she would have said it regardless, it does neither prove that he is a hippiemancer nor prove that he is not a hippimancer, only that Janis is ready to lie (which we do not know).

    Quote:
    This is, if Hamster was a mancer, don't you think he would've asked someone to teach him how to use it during all this time?


    Does Hamster even know that Janis said he was a hippiemancer?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:33 pm 
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool This user is a part of Erfworld canon! Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    splintermute wrote:
    Nice catch, although in your original post you specified that you were talking about Wagner's version. Also, it can't be an invisibility cloak, since we can still see Parson (maybe he has to press the power button in the clasp?)

    No it was justamessenger put in the Wagner thing - just had more than 3 quotes and had to cut something. I wish i'd just called it the cloak of invisibility, it's just that tarnkappe is used a term used for that in some modern fantasy fiction.
    By the way this has caused me to do some research and on reading an outline of the Volsung Saga - the Icelandic take on the story - learn that this version used shapechanging rather than invisibility, though achieved by potions. There were magic treasures but they did other things.
    I'm in complete aggreement with you about the Power Button.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:52 pm 
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    build6 wrote:
    we know Jillian has an heir due (talk about an active pregnancy).


    Is it just me, or is that one of the funniest things you've ever had the pleasure of reading? Well done

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:58 pm 
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    build6 wrote:
    Sieggy wrote:
    I would suspect that if the Schmuckers are expended, a ruler could appoint who/whatever they wanted as heir.


    would a royal be cheaper to promote into an heir? (or... more expensive??)

    we know Jillian has an heir due (talk about an active pregnancy). is anyone else intensely curious what on earth this heir will be like?? Tramennis is nothing like Slately (and, in fact, neither is Ansom or Ossomer).

    I suspect that the Law of Karmic Retribution being what it is, the heir will wind up being everything that Jillian is not, just as Jillian was to Banhammer. And as Tremennis is to Stately (his two badass jock sons are croaked and he's left with Twinkletoes the Faboo Warlord) . . .

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     Post subject: Re: crazy speculation
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 4:40 pm 
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    oslecamo2 wrote:
    Morgaln wrote:
    If it is true that Parson is a hippiemancer, then we know that mancers can be warlords. Which might or might not mean they can also be heirs and/or rulers.

    Please, I'm geting tired of that theory whitout any real foundation.
    There is a foundation there. It's just that there is a lot of disagreement about that foundation. And there isn't enough evidence either way to warrant an attempt to shut down the discussion, even by citing every scrap of evidence on one side or the other. No matter which side you favor, the other side has some valid points that cannot be ignored.
    oslecamo2 wrote:
    Have we seen Hamster cast any spells of any school? No, we've just seen him do
    Hmmm? Do what? Mathamancy, even if via an artifact?
    oslecamo2 wrote:
    Did the other mancers at MK recognize Hamster as a mancer, hippie or not? Nope, they were all ready to take him down.
    No one, 'mancer or otherwise, recognizes Parson as anything. Other than a potato, that is. His stats are not visible! This is more than enough to support a position that the MK casters were confused and fell back to a wands out and "ready for anything" posture when they could not see that Parson was identifiable as a caster or any other kind of unit they are familiar with.
    oslecamo2 wrote:
    The great abbey just called Hamster a hippiemancer to stop the MK from croacking Hamster. That's what she does, she stops conflict. And by calling Hamster a hippiemancer instead of anything else she was basically puting him under her direct protection while on the MK, since she's hippiemancer queen. If she was willing to take direct responsability of him, that would calm down the other trigger-happy mancers.
    That is a decent theory. But there isn't anything in canon to support it. While the opposing side has the direct statement from a Grand Abby that Parson is a Hippymancer. And to my knowledge no single evidence that Janice has ever lied to anyone about anything.
    oslecamo2 wrote:
    Fact is, the great Abbey had all reasons to lie to the MK members to protect Hamster, and he has still to use magic. So he's not a mancer. Point.
    Counterpoint: In canon, we have seen a non-casting unit commit suicide by stepping through the MK portal. Parson also stepped through the MK portal, and did not die. Thus, by all evidence, he must be either a caster or have some unknown to anyone on Erf exception to that mechanic. When you hear the thunder of hooves, it is more reasonable to expect to find horses than zebras. Similarly, when we have a known mechanic, it is more reasonable to apply the known remedy than to hypothesize that there must be some new rule in force.
    oslecamo2 wrote:
    This is, if Hamster was a mancer, don't you think he would've asked someone to teach him how to use it during all this time?
    But Parson has attempted to cast spells. Nothing happened. I don't see a definite point for either position there.

    I'm not in either camp. I dislike the idea that Parson is a hippymancer, and there is enough "Special" about Parson that just about any exception to any rule can be reasonably theorized. But I can't say that there isn't ample evidence which would allow someone to reasonably arrive at the conclusion that Janice called it correctly and that the portal therefore acted correctly.

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     Post subject: Re: crazy speculation
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 4:59 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    oslecamo2 wrote:
    This is, if Hamster was a mancer, don't you think he would've asked someone to teach him how to use it during all this time?
    But Parson has attempted to cast spells. Nothing happened. I don't see a definite point for either position there.

    Are we sure nothing happened? Luckamancy doesn't necessarily need to be accompanied by magical sparkles, and Bogroll was able to defeat Ansom with a single blow shortly after Parson's attempted casting.

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     Post subject: Re: crazy speculation
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:20 pm 
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool This user is a part of Erfworld canon! Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    [quote="Oberon In canon, we have seen a non-casting unit commit suicide by stepping through the MK portal. Parson also stepped through the MK portal, and did not die. Thus, by all evidence, he must be either a caster or have some unknown to anyone on Erf exception to that mechanic. When you hear the thunder of hooves, it is more reasonable to expect to find horses than zebras. Similarly, when we have a known mechanic, it is more reasonable to apply the known remedy than to hypothesize that there must be some new rule in force.[/quote]

    Occam's razor restated for Erfworld! Woot!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:07 pm 
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    Disagree. We know that there is a mechanic. We do not know if the mechanic is


    If Attribute(Caster) then Accept else Disintegrate;

    or

    If Attribute(NonCaster) then Disintegrate else Accept;

    It makes a big diiferent when a character has no detectable Attributes.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 44
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:08 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    Counterpoint: In canon, we have seen a non-casting unit commit suicide by stepping through the MK portal. Parson also stepped through the MK portal, and did not die. Thus, by all evidence, he must be either a caster or have some unknown to anyone on Erf exception to that mechanic. When you hear the thunder of hooves, it is more reasonable to expect to find horses than zebras. Similarly, when we have a known mechanic, it is more reasonable to apply the known remedy than to hypothesize that there must be some new rule in force.
    Sadly Parson's stats are hidden. So it seems that either the portal has some new trick to see caster stat, or is built to disintigrate anything that scans non-casters. (As opposed to disintigrating everything except for what scans as a caster.) Or Parson has some new trick to avoid disbandment. Which a summer update implied was the case. (Or Stanley doesn't know the disbanding rules all that well.)

    Regardless the non-disbandment of the portal doesn't show Parson is a caster. Its one possiblity, but its certainly not the only simple one.

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