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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:55 pm 
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Regarding the inconsistency: Maybe it's in the way he phrased it.

"What are the odds of defeating Jetstone's forces?" versus "What are the odds of defeating Jetstone and its allies' forces?" Of course, I don't have the time to backread to see if I'm guessing right as I'm sort of in class right now, but there's a possible answer.

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:22 pm 
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    cdrcjsn wrote:
    Speaking of garrison units...

    We know that you can promote a garrison unit out of turn (Parson did it to himself).
    That probably means you can demote a normal unit to a garrison unit out of turn as well.

    Is there a limitation on where you can do it? For the most part, sides won't designate garrison units outside of cities they own (because what's the point of a 0 move unit out in the middle of nowhere?).

    If there isn't, perhaps that's how Parson plans on grounding the fliers, by turning the riders into garrison units, forcing them and their mounts to land (like he did back in the summer updates when he tried to ride a dwagon). Perhaps it's one of the safest ways to "fall"?


    1.) I doubt you can garrison enemy airspace. Garrisoning, in games that support it, involve semi-permanently assigning troops to defense of a city you own. This gives them usually a reduced upkeep cost, but they can't be moved unless promoted (which usually involves an expense).

    2.) Being garrisoned wouldn't necessarily make anything fall. Garrison units have 0 move, which prevents them from crossing hex boundaries, but doesn't necessarily force them groundward. As pointed out, all units have 0 move off-turn and that doesn't make them fall.

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:31 pm 
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    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=/077a.jpg
    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=/086.jpg
    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=/116.jpg

    Anyone willing to do the math can use the numbers in these three pages from Book 1 to see how many troops did GK had before going to reconquest all the cities they have now.
    Stanley came back with a few dwagons, one hobgobwin and Jack. Some of the troops from the Coalition left to get Stanley (I would guess the Barbarians and Transylvito), but they are not that many either. I would assume the uncroaked units that died in the volcano could not be decrypted.
    I didn't bother to do the exact numbers, but the amount of troops GK had right after TBfGK (almost all of them decrypted) seem to be near the 9400 mentioned in Maggie's text update I quoted before.
    Then, right after Kingworld, Parson mentios 2/3 of their troops are decrypted
    http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=/2010-02-24.jpg
    That would mean that from those 9000+ troops you should have about 6000+ decrypted and 3000+ living troops. We have the 200 hobgobwins, the dwagons Stanley has been taming, maybe some golems made by Sizemore and whatever all of GK cities have been able to pop in the turns since the volcano (which acording to http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/?px=/2009-10-31.jpg are less than 72 ).

    Someone please check these numbers, but if all this is correct, GK had a net loss of about 3000 decrypted when conquering all those cities and has been poping at an astounding rate in those 15 cities the have.

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:35 pm 
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    zilfallon wrote:
    Ignoring my opinions, and lets assume it is possible to make units in an enemy city garrison-units off turn. The reason Parson couldn't mount is because he's a heavy.


    Is this actually stated anywhere, that Parson is a heavy unit? Since that summer update was dealing all about his move limitations as a garrison unit, I just assumed that it was his garrison status that was the reason for the failure to mount rather than his unit type.

    Not that I'm strongly attached to my idea. I was just rereading the last few pages and was thinking of what was available off turn and the status of a garrison unit just popped into my head.

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:50 pm 
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    @Not Me:
    Judging by this comic:
    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F122.jpg
    That makes about 7000. Which makes a net loss of only 1000 decrypted, which seems reasonable given the speed at which they've been conquering--you take higher casualties when you storm the walls. So, a loss of 1000 is plausible, but either way, they've been popping a ton of units to make up the difference.

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:58 pm 
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    Not Me wrote:
    I didn't bother to do the exact numbers, but the amount of troops GK had right after TBfGK (almost all of them decrypted) seem to be near the 9400 mentioned in Maggie's text update I quoted before.


    I'm with ya except for the bit I quoted. The 9400 indeed came from the Maggie update (http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -02-06.png), but this didn't happen until after Ansom was left by himself at Expository Bridge... i.e. right before Kingworld rather than right after TBfGK.

    Sounds like right now they are at ~8k units... or 9.5k minus the wiped out ground column (1.5k).

    Unless I'm wrong, we don't know how many units were lost (or gained) in the seizing of the outermost cities.

    Edit: Scratch that... we know that the RCCI had around 9751 units:

    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=/086.jpg

    We know from:

    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=/116.jpg

    That there were more than 1000 of these units uncroaked and lost to the volcano. Therefore GK had up to 8750 + however many GK units were decrypted after TBfGK... depending on how many were found in the wreckage.

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:18 pm 
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    On the subject of the number of living troops popped since TBfGK, if an Archon takes 3 turns to pop, then a bat or a basic stabber should pop several in one turn. Perhaps several dozen. There just isn't enough granularity of unit types in between. At a production rate of 1 stabber per turn there would be little to zero reason to prefer, as Ansom does, a infantry and siege heavy army. In the same time frame you could have 1/3 the number of stabbers as some form of very potent unit with far, far more than 3x the fighting capability. Or would there be any reason at all to prefer 3,000 stabbers and say 100 siege, vs. 1,000 Archons and 100 siege? None that jumps out at me, at least...

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     Post Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:58 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    On the subject of the number of living troops popped since TBfGK, if an Archon takes 3 turns to pop, then a bat or a basic stabber should pop several in one turn. Perhaps several dozen. There just isn't enough granularity of unit types in between. At a production rate of 1 stabber per turn there would be little to zero reason to prefer, as Ansom does, a infantry and siege heavy army. In the same time frame you could have 1/3 the number of stabbers as some form of very potent unit with far, far more than 3x the fighting capability. Or would there be any reason at all to prefer 3,000 stabbers and say 100 siege, vs. 1,000 Archons and 100 siege? None that jumps out at me, at least...


    It states it takes Charlie three turns to pop an Archon. We don't know if the 'dish, charlie's base, or some other unique factor decreases the time significantly. However, I agree that 'Yes, stabbers/'weak' infantry probably should spawn rapidly, perhaps 2/3 per turn, maybe 6/7,' if only because of the lack of utility in the average stabber. 7 stabbers can doubtless stop an assault of infantry...but what about cavalry, heavies or fliers? Not worth it, unless serious mass spawns or some abilities we don't know about.

    Screwup, I meant to specify 7 stabbers per turn*

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     Post Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:25 am 
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    Oberon wrote:
    On the subject of the number of living troops popped since TBfGK, if an Archon takes 3 turns to pop, then a bat or a basic stabber should pop several in one turn. Perhaps several dozen. There just isn't enough granularity of unit types in between. At a production rate of 1 stabber per turn there would be little to zero reason to prefer, as Ansom does, a infantry and siege heavy army. In the same time frame you could have 1/3 the number of stabbers as some form of very potent unit with far, far more than 3x the fighting capability. Or would there be any reason at all to prefer 3,000 stabbers and say 100 siege, vs. 1,000 Archons and 100 siege? None that jumps out at me, at least...


    Based on this summer update, it seems that the level 5 city Dhrystone can pop one gump every 3 turns, but in a single turn can pop 8 pikers or 6 stabbers.

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     Post Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:14 am 
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    Nihila wrote:
    @Not Me:
    Judging by this comic:
    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F122.jpg
    That makes about 7000. Which makes a net loss of only 1000 decrypted, which seems reasonable given the speed at which they've been conquering--you take higher casualties when you storm the walls. So, a loss of 1000 is plausible, but either way, they've been popping a ton of units to make up the difference.


    Thanks for that one!!
    Those numbers look better now.
    As has been mentioned, cities should be able to produce more than one unit per turn when you are talking about weaker units. GK probably popped several twolls per turn the first few turns. At least you can see a few of them with Ansom when Haggar attacked him.
    Still, if we go with the 9000+ units Maggie mentioned and the "2/3 are decrypted" from Parson, GK should have 3000+ units that are not decrypted. We only saw 1 spidew and a few twolls with Ansom. There are several dwagons, 2 casters and some other warlords in Wanda's group. The rest of those 3000+ live units should still be in GK cities and since they have been popping infantry and twolls in the level 1 cities, spidews and warlords in the level 2 and dwagons in the level 3+ they must have an impressive pop rate for those units to get to the 3000+ (minus the 200 hobgobwins that were popped with schmuckers and the feral dwagons that Stanley has been taming).
    If these numbers are correct, we can assume that GK is not that weak behind their frontlines. They might loose one or two peripheral cities, but I wouldn't expect a Capital strike to be possible at this time.

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     Post Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:25 pm 
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    Among the interesting quotes that have been dug up was the bit about "8000 speaking units." That suggests that there were, at one point, 1.4k spidews and dwagons :shock: ... mebbe some less if GK has been decrypting or popping a lot of weinerammers or something. We also know that very few non-speaking units have been lost in the recent battles.

    Anyway, as it stands right now, we're looking at
    ~1400 non-speaking units (spidews and dwagons)
    ~1500 living regular units (twolls and infantry)... assuming most of the spidews are not decrypted... minus however many died in the engagement with Sammy
    ~200 hobgoblins
    ~5200 decrypted units...minus however many died in the engagement with Sammy

    Indeed, quite a force!

    Certainly enough to repel most conventional attacks! Of course, having an honor guard of hobgoblins turn and kill Stanley is anything but conventional :D But you've dug up enough information to convince me that, if the hobgobwins actually need to take the Garrison (instead of just doing the old prison-shower shank job (yes, I realize they don't have showers)), that they probably wouldn't be able to do it (unless essentially all of the Hobgoblins are currently stationed at GK and Ansom left an unusually small guard back at the capital). While I'm certain that Charlie could take GK (the empire) straight up if if it weren't for the pliers (since ~20 archons=500 assorted units (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=/104.jpg) it follows that ~600 archons=15000 assorted units), this just isn't within Charlie's MO.

    The only other possibility for a decapitation strike would then be if he had snuck in enough archons under foolmancy to take out just the GK (the capital) garrison. Since we've seen at least one of his archons getting caught, I don't see this being sufficiently foreshadowed to worry about.

    This is to say, ok, you have convinced at least me to stop worrying about decapitation for now!

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     Post Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:40 pm 
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    Can you demote casters and warlords to garrison units? What would happen?

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     Post Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:43 pm 
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    As I said in my above post, Urf, we do not know if it is possible to demote field units to garrison.

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     Post Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:52 pm 
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    effataigus wrote:
    Among the interesting quotes that have been dug up was the bit about "8000 speaking units." That suggests that there were, at one point, 1.4k spidews and dwagons :shock: ... mebbe some less if GK has been decrypting or popping a lot of weinerammers or something. We also know that very few non-speaking units have been lost in the recent battles.

    Anyway, as it stands right now, we're looking at
    ~1400 non-speaking units (spidews and dwagons)
    ~1500 living regular units (twolls and infantry)... assuming most of the spidews are not decrypted... minus however many died in the engagement with Sammy
    ~200 hobgoblins
    ~5200 decrypted units...minus however many died in the engagement with Sammy

    Indeed, quite a force!

    Certainly enough to repel most conventional attacks! Of course, having an honor guard of hobgoblins turn and kill Stanley is anything but conventional :D But you've dug up enough information to convince me that, if the hobgobwins actually need to take the Garrison (instead of just doing the old prison-shower shank job (yes, I realize they don't have showers)), that they probably wouldn't be able to do it (unless essentially all of the Hobgoblins are currently stationed at GK and Ansom left an unusually small guard back at the capital). While I'm certain that Charlie could take GK (the empire) straight up if if it weren't for the pliers (since ~20 archons=500 assorted units (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=/104.jpg) it follows that ~600 archons=15000 assorted units), this just isn't within Charlie's MO.

    The only other possibility for a decapitation strike would then be if he had snuck in enough archons under foolmancy to take out just the GK (the capital) garrison. Since we've seen at least one of his archons getting caught, I don't see this being sufficiently foreshadowed to worry about.

    This is to say, ok, you have convinced at least me to stop worrying about decapitation for now!


    I've also been thinking about the "non-speaking" units. Probably those not only include dwagons and spidews but the wieneramers you mentioned and also Jetstone and Sizemore Golems. I can't think of what other units might fall into that category so I'm either missing something or they have tons of Golems and popped/tamed a boopload of spidews/dwagons.

    And about the 20 archons = 500 assorted units (we know they were more than 14, but I'm not sure if we know they were 20 or 40 or how many archons to beat those 500 assorted units), that was after Stanley took his dwagons and elite guard with him. I'm sure he has quite a few dwagons and elite troops in GK right now so that equation might not work this time.

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     Post Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:30 pm 
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    effataigus wrote:
    But you've dug up enough information to convince me that, if the hobgobwins actually need to take the Garrison (instead of just doing the old prison-shower shank job (yes, I realize they don't have showers)), that they probably wouldn't be able to do it (unless essentially all of the Hobgoblins are currently stationed at GK and Ansom left an unusually small guard back at the capital).


    They don't need to. They just need to provide intel to Charlie and eventually provide the enemy army (probably gobwins) acess to the tower. Something that can probably only be done if Sizemore is not there (assuming the gobwins tunnel into GK) .

    People have been assuming that knowing that Parson was promoted to chief warlord is evidence that Charlie was eavesdropping on Maggie, when Charlie might have simply learned that from the hobgobwins. I don't believe Charlie knows Parson's plan, only that Parson surely has one.

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     Post Posted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:36 pm 
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    Hmm are you suggesting Charlie is spying on them through the gobwins instead of thinkamacy tapping? Interesting.

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     Post Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:27 am 
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    the_tick_rules wrote:
    Hmm are you suggesting Charlie is spying on them through the gobwins instead of thinkamacy tapping? Interesting.


    now THAT I can believe.

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     Post Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:24 am 
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    I figured he had spies in the Magic Kingdom. Namely Grand Abbey Janis, or her predictomancer friend.

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     Post Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:28 pm 
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    spriteless wrote:
    I figured he had spies in the Magic Kingdom. Namely Grand Abbey Janis, or her predictomancer friend.

    Sizemore recently had a female friend, if this was cold war in real life would look very suspicious of being "honey trap" spy method, perhaps to plant some sort of suggestion spell.

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     Post Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:32 pm 
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    the_tick_rules wrote:
    Hmm are you suggesting Charlie is spying on them through the gobwins instead of thinkamacy tapping? Interesting.


    If that's true, Stanley better hope his chatter with the Sandwich-making twoll doesn't get any futher.

    cdrcjsn wrote:
    Is this actually stated anywhere, that Parson is a heavy unit? Since that summer update was dealing all about his move limitations as a garrison unit, I just assumed that it was his garrison status that was the reason for the failure to mount rather than his unit type.


    Closest I could remember was his original summoning: http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=/017.jpg

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