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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:32 am 
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Urf wrote:
Tramennis is proving to be the real wild card here. Let's see what the tie-dye is capable of.


Well, whatever it is, it won't be a tie-dyed in the wool response...


[sorry :D]

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:45 pm 
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    CorrTerek wrote:
    Also, how exactly would you experiment with [checking out the possibility that Archons can enter the MK], when it's likely that your first test run would also alert people that the exploit is possible?

    You forget, some (most) Archons can veil. It's odd, but potentially the best means of diverting someone from spotting a veiled Archon is also a means that Charlie does not have at his disposal. Typically, and I'm not saying that Erf mechanics mimics this, illusions are harder to break if they are not challenged by odd things happening that would naturally make someone suspicious. Thus, the best way to keep an Archon veil up when it enters the MK is to send other units through at the same time. Casters, of course. Which Charlie does not have. The casters would focus the attention of the MK residents, and any "swirly portal activation visuals" that was happening would be attributed to the caster(s) passing through the portal.

    But Charlie can't use that method. He could order a veiled Archon to follow a hired caster through, but that would be less desirable since that caster might break the veil of an Archon so close on her heels, and if that happened ex-employer's unit or not I've no doubt that she would raise the alarm.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:21 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    You forget, some (most) Archons can veil. It's odd, but potentially the best means of diverting someone from spotting a veiled Archon is also a means that Charlie does not have at his disposal. Typically, and I'm not saying that Erf mechanics mimics this, illusions are harder to break if they are not challenged by odd things happening that would naturally make someone suspicious. Thus, the best way to keep an Archon veil up when it enters the MK is to send other units through at the same time. Casters, of course. Which Charlie does not have. The casters would focus the attention of the MK residents, and any "swirly portal activation visuals" that was happening would be attributed to the caster(s) passing through the portal.

    But Charlie can't use that method. He could order a veiled Archon to follow a hired caster through, but that would be less desirable since that caster might break the veil of an Archon so close on her heels, and if that happened ex-employer's unit or not I've no doubt that she would raise the alarm.


    That's good thinking. But here's the other wrinkle -- or, rather, two: a) the MK would surely have Foolamancers around, who can see through veils, and b) aren't there guards at the portals? Or did that just happen after Parson? Both of those together seem to indicate that an Archon (or other, similar unit that can cast) would be discovered sooner or later, though the first test might work out alright.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 7:30 pm 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    Do veils even last between hexes? I seem to remember Stanley's veil automatically dropping as he crossed hexes, and I thought I remembered that from somewhere else. So it might turn out that the archons would have to recast a veil after they enter anyway.

    But as we know, even if veils had to be usually recast on leaving/entering a hex, MK portals are weird with respect to hex movement as they don't even cost move. So who knows how they affect veils. That'll be up to plotomancy, whenever it becomes relevant.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:53 pm 
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    ftl wrote:
    Do veils even last between hexes? I seem to remember Stanley's veil automatically dropping as he crossed hexes, and I thought I remembered that from somewhere else. So it might turn out that the archons would have to recast a veil after they enter anyway.
    You are quite correct, Stanley's (Jack's, really) veil did drop as they crossed a hex. I always considered this to be a "reveal" to the readers, but it bears some analysis.

    Veils dropping between hexes may indeed be the rule. However, I always considered Jack dropping his veil as they crossed the hex border to be efficiency, rather than necessity. This assumption could easily be wrong, but it makes sense, to me at least. If veils don't drop as you cross hexes there is little reason to maintain them anyway. It's your turn and the enemy cannot pursue you, so there is no need to waste the juice unless there is also an enemy force in the adjacent hex.

    Also, we're right in the middle of speculations that crossing into the MK is possible off-turn, because it does not count as a hex change. Note that the volcano uncroaking trimancer link entered the MK off-turn, as did Parson. You can not cross a hex off turn, as Maggie just pointed out to Parson, so this indicates that entering the MK does not count as crossing a hex.

    So even if veils have to drop when you cross hexes, and Jack dropping the bat veil when he and Stanley crossed the hex wasn't just an efficient use of his juice, entering a portal does not equate to crossing a hex boundary and would not follow the same rules.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:46 am 
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    ftl wrote:
    Do veils even last between hexes? I seem to remember Stanley's veil automatically dropping as he crossed hexes, and I thought I remembered that from somewhere else.


    But the veil Jack cast on Wandas group in the Battle for Exposition Bridge, was cast in one hex and then carried over to the one the battle was in.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:42 am 
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    ftl wrote:
    Do veils even last between hexes? I seem to remember Stanley's veil automatically dropping as he crossed hexes, and I thought I remembered that from somewhere else. So it might turn out that the archons would have to recast a veil after they enter anyway.

    But as we know, even if veils had to be usually recast on leaving/entering a hex, MK portals are weird with respect to hex movement as they don't even cost move. So who knows how they affect veils. That'll be up to plotomancy, whenever it becomes relevant.


    I believe Veils do not cross hex boundaries as evidenced by the last panel of the battle of the pass (the veil dropping off the red dwagon as Stanley escaped the hex)

    HOWEVER, Going through a MK portal does not appear to be a hex boundary crossing as Parson and the casters were able to pass through it at the end of Book 1 even though it was not their turn. Ergo, I stand by my opinion that the MK portals allow folks to traverse hexes without crossing hex boundaries thus allowing near instantaneous travel.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:57 pm 
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    mortissimus wrote:
    ftl wrote:
    Do veils even last between hexes? I seem to remember Stanley's veil automatically dropping as he crossed hexes, and I thought I remembered that from somewhere else.


    But the veil Jack cast on Wandas group in the Battle for Exposition Bridge, was cast in one hex and then carried over to the one the battle was in.

    More than that, Jack veiled the REAL stack while projecting an illusory stack as a diversion, all while in the hex on the far side of the bridge. The art showed the illusory stack coming through the hex barrier, becoming visible as it did so, while the real stack remained veiled when it passed the boundary. Of course, bear in mind that it was still GKs turn at the time. The reason that the Jetstone arrows were trapped at the hex boundary was because it WASN'T their turn, and so couldn't penetrate the barrier. Boundary issues apparently aren't an issue on your own turn.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:41 pm 
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    mortissimus wrote:
    But the veil Jack cast on Wandas group in the Battle for Exposition Bridge, was cast in one hex and then carried over to the one the battle was in.


    Technically, that was a displacement rather than a veil. It could make a difference.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:22 pm 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    Sieggy wrote:
    mortissimus wrote:
    ftl wrote:
    Do veils even last between hexes? I seem to remember Stanley's veil automatically dropping as he crossed hexes, and I thought I remembered that from somewhere else.


    But the veil Jack cast on Wandas group in the Battle for Exposition Bridge, was cast in one hex and then carried over to the one the battle was in.

    More than that, Jack veiled the REAL stack while projecting an illusory stack as a diversion, all while in the hex on the far side of the bridge. The art showed the illusory stack coming through the hex barrier, becoming visible as it did so, while the real stack remained veiled when it passed the boundary. Of course, bear in mind that it was still GKs turn at the time. The reason that the Jetstone arrows were trapped at the hex boundary was because it WASN'T their turn, and so couldn't penetrate the barrier. Boundary issues apparently aren't an issue on your own turn.


    Just a note - it wasn't two separate spells (a veil and then a diversionary illusion). It was a single spell called a displacement - it makes units look as if they're elsewhere.

    It's similar to a veil in that it confuses the enemy by showing them something else rather than is there, but in a different way; whereas a veil makes a unit look like some other unit of similar size, a displacement makes a unit appear to be in a different place than it is (possibly only within the same hex? dunno.) (but it does correctly show what units are there, they just look like they're in a different place in the hex.)

    You're right in that that's an example of foolamancy being cast/prepared before a hex boundary and then crossing it, though. (Also, in this case they had a flash mob to help that along. )

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:14 pm 
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    Regardless of the minutiae, the evidence that veil effects must be allowed to cross hex boundaries is clear from the start of Book 2. If the veil making the dwagon airforce look like stacks of siege ever dropped on the way to Jetstone, the jig would be up and the element of surprise would have been lost.

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