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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
 Post Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:50 pm 
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Perfect Warlord Spell = Trojan Horse?
Parson = (Unwitting) Greek warriors?
Erfword = Trojans?
Janis? = Odysseus?
Wanda = Trojans who brought the Horse into Troy?
Wanda = Sinon, the Greek who convinced the Trojans to bring the Horse into Troy?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:00 pm 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter This user is a Tool! Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
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    CorrTerek wrote:
    [W]hen Parson came through the portal the first time it took everyone by surprise. If the spell was designed to allow him to walk through portals as needed, wouldn't they already know who he was? I mean, GK buys the spell, and then here a few turns later a guy comes walking through the portal whose stats you can't see and doesn't look like a caster?


    Well I don't quite think that it's a fair expectation that all MK casters knew or cared about the spell. Summon Perfect Warlord seems to require just Findamancy and Predictamancy. For casters outside of those fields, it's firmly SEP territory--a piece of gossip perhaps, but not a serious concern. When Wanda left with the SPW scroll, she could have been seen as performing a shopping errand--she did maintain a sizable private stash after all. Ho-hum, non-event.

    Parson was summoned in Gobwin Knob. Even those who would have known about the perfect warlord would have no idea what (s)he would look like. And I would say a giant twoll-like warlord would pretty surprising to see in casterland, just on principle.

    The great western conflict could have been seen as just "politics" and not suitable for discussion within the MK. At least, not beyond, "Wow Sizemore, that sucks."

    CorrTerek wrote:
    It's a spell that was for sale to the highest bidder -- this means that, at the very least, one caster from each side would know about it and presumably its capabilities. How else could they convince their Lord to buy it? And wouldn't a spell that gave someone who isn't a caster the ability to enter the MK be something that people would talk about?


    This brings up the greater question of why nobody else bought the spell first. I'm willing to say that GK was in a unique position where they still had money, the cost of the spell mattered less than usual (Stanley can't take the treasury with him) and the need for its effect was the greatest (no CW candidates for the capital's last stand). For everyone else who has perfectly good warlords already, it is easy to ignore an overpriced item you do not need.

    Consider: in the other capital fights we've seen, Unaroyal and now Spacerock, the defending side already has a chief warlord. Hell, Jetstone even had an understudy. While we can't say about K.C.'s performance for sure, he did end up on Parson's short list of candidates, so I'd say he's competent. I'd say that all the sons of Jetstone have demonstrated that they are not too shabby either. Also, in Jetstone's case, they are bankrupt anyway and can't afford such an extravagant spell even if they needed it.

    SCW is clearly a niche item, that will only ever appeal to a small set of buyers--those short on warlord talent.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:01 am 
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    Drakonite wrote:
    I've always had a different view about how Parson was able to walk trough the portal.

    I believe that the "Summon the Perfect warlord" spell was originally intended to be cast within The Magic Kingdom by the creators of the spell. For this reason, it made sense that the unit produced (A magical Predictamancy/Findamancy Summon) could be able to cross the portal to reach their side. This is even more reasonable if you consider the "Support Plan" that could require him returning into TMK for fine-tunning (Or straight up staying there a couple of turns before being delivered). The creators of the spell probably didn't plan on this "feature" being abused.

    As for Janis, I always figured that she was lying about him being a hippiemancer; since that was the quickest way of calming down the other casters.


    Same here, but it is also possible that he actually is a hippymancer, even if only in name, in order to satisfy the portal requirement. Maggie, at least, seems to have a very low regard for hippymancy, so perhaps it was selected as the least powerful ability that technically satisfied the needs of the portal.

    Personally I doubt the portal requirement of the spell simply because it is such a bad idea. The barbarian caster could easily have traveled to GK to cast the spell. Mercenary casting is a normal function for many residents of the MK. Consider Vanna.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:51 am 
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    gaiaswill wrote:
    Parson was summoned in Gobwin Knob. Even those who would have known about the perfect warlord would have no idea what (s)he would look like. And I would say a giant twoll-like warlord would pretty surprising to see in casterland, just on principle.


    Heck, his bulk was surprising to Stanley, who was the one who said "Just make him BIG".

    gaiaswill wrote:
    This brings up the greater question of why nobody else bought the spell first. I'm willing to say that GK was in a unique position where they still had money, the cost of the spell mattered less than usual (Stanley can't take the treasury with him) and the need for its effect was the greatest (no CW candidates for the capital's last stand). For everyone else who has perfectly good warlords already, it is easy to ignore an overpriced item you do not need.


    Other factors: GK not having any friendly neighbors, and Stanley thinking very highly of Wanda. I doubt Jetstone would have demanded 500,000 Schmuckers from Unaroyal if Unaroyal had needed to trade for Webinar to fill their CW slot, and to a typical Erf Ruler, a battle-tested level 5 probably sounds better than letting a Caster identify "the perfect warlord".


    Edit: removed my irrelevant musing of what would have happened if Stanley had summoned Charlie. Just too off-topic.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:21 am 
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    Tinfoil hat? Not good enough, i'm putting on a full Tin Woodman outfit.

    Ok, here goes. There is one Side we know that would have been in desperate straits and which by its very nature was unlikely to produce a particularly effective warlord anytime soon. I refer of course, to Milquetoast. It was they who ordered the spell. But Stanly the Plaid battered down the vine covered walls of their modest bungalow before it could be delivered. That left the creators of the spell with a lost sale. So-- what does a maker do when stuck with an unclaimed custom made item? They have their sales force discreetly shop it around to whoever they think might go for it.

    Don: I got warlords coming out the butt, why'd i need to buy one?

    Bea: Extra dimensional summoning is not ladylike.

    Jitterati: No help needed, we're hyped up for anything!

    Slately: I already have two perfect warlords-- with thousand turn pedegrees.

    Stanley: The Titans are with me, all i need in a warlord is cheekbones.

    Dickey: No magical creation can match what we've forged in pure sound!

    No sale. Time to create a better market. The creators of the spell discreetly encouraged the formation of the original RCC. Any all out combination would have been acceptible but this was the easiest one since it worked on an existing division-- royalty versus upstart commoner.

    Sure enough, Gobwin Knob was reduced to a state where Stanely was willing to buy. The rest is move transcripts.

    Edit: corrected name

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    Last edited by Dr Pepper on Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:54 am 
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    Could Parson use some type of captured mechanic to cross all the hexes?

    Quote:
    Units may only move to another hex during their Side's Turn. Each unit has a specific amount of "Move" which determines how far it may travel during one turn. Units' Move is set to their maximum at the beginning of their side's Turn. At the end of the side's Turn, its units lose any unused Move, and may not leave their current hex until their side's next Turn. Exception: a unit with no remaining Move may leave its hex (on its Turn) by riding atop a Mount, or (on an enemy's Turn) by being captured and transported as a prisoner.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:12 pm 
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    Dr Pepper, i think you meant Stanley instead of Slately in your last sentence. Let's not mistype their names since they are different people :D

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:32 pm 
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    Abbacabba wrote:
    Could Parson use some type of captured mechanic to cross all the hexes?

    Quote:
    Units may only move to another hex during their Side's Turn. Each unit has a specific amount of "Move" which determines how far it may travel during one turn. Units' Move is set to their maximum at the beginning of their side's Turn. At the end of the side's Turn, its units lose any unused Move, and may not leave their current hex until their side's next Turn. Exception: a unit with no remaining Move may leave its hex (on its Turn) by riding atop a Mount, or (on an enemy's Turn) by being captured and transported as a prisoner.
    They would need a Jetstone unit with enough move to transport them across all the hexes. And get to GK, and willing to move Parson. Its not happening.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:38 pm 
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    You can't cross hex BOUNDARIES off turn. They are NOT crossing a hex boundary by using the magic portals.
    Its an exploit that Parson may well be taking full advantage of.

    note: I also believe that movement is 'free' within the Magic Kingdom or that it counts as one hex or else Sizemore was lucky enough to be in the same hex as portal park when his turn ended.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:13 pm 
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    Abbacabba wrote:
    Could Parson use some type of captured mechanic to cross all the hexes?


    It would still take multiple turns unless he can manage some sort of relay.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:46 pm 
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    ftl wrote:
    Hmm... do we actually know that it was for sale "to the highest bidder"? I remember Wanda early on saying the price that the spell was being sold for, but I *don't* remember anything about an auction.

    Yeah, I looked back on the first few strips, and Wanda doesn't mention anything about an auction or a highest bidder.


    Yeah, most of my reasoning depends on SPW being for sale to whoever was willing to pay -- "highest bidder" was really the wrong choice of words. Do we know, at least, that the spell wasn't crafted specifically for GK?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:33 pm 
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    CorrTerek wrote:
    ftl wrote:
    Hmm... do we actually know that it was for sale "to the highest bidder"? I remember Wanda early on saying the price that the spell was being sold for, but I *don't* remember anything about an auction.

    Yeah, I looked back on the first few strips, and Wanda doesn't mention anything about an auction or a highest bidder.


    Yeah, most of my reasoning depends on SPW being for sale to whoever was willing to pay -- "highest bidder" was really the wrong choice of words. Do we know, at least, that the spell wasn't crafted specifically for GK?


    It was strongly suggested that this is the case. Certainly Stanley was led to believe that.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:07 pm 
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    DevilDan wrote:
    Abbacabba wrote:
    Could Parson use some type of captured mechanic to cross all the hexes?


    It would still take multiple turns unless he can manage some sort of relay.


    and he would be in irons, I believe.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:38 pm 
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    zilfallon wrote:
    Dr Pepper, i think you meant Stanley instead of Slately in your last sentence. Let's not mistype their names since they are different people :D


    Oppsiedoodle! Fixed. Thanks.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:40 pm 
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    CorrTerek wrote:
    Yeah, but if I'm understanding this theory correctly, a lot of the...unique things about Parson are there because the spell was designed to make things a certain way. For instance, he can go through portals because the spell was originally supposed to be cast in the MK and the warlord would need some way to leave.

    That's all fine and good, but here's what bugs me about that idea -- when Parson came through the portal the first time it took everyone by surprise. If the spell was designed to allow him to walk through portals as needed, wouldn't they already know who he was? I mean, GK buys the spell, and then here a few turns later a guy comes walking through the portal whose stats you can't see and doesn't look like a caster? According to this theory, the MK casters should have been like "Oh, it's that Perfect Warlord."

    They don't. They kind of flip out until Janis smooths things over with her "Obviously a Hippiemancer" explanation.

    To sum up, I think you and I are actually agreeing, Oberon -- I think that any anomalies in the way Parson interacts with Erf's rules are due to him being from outside of Erf. I don't think that all the weird things about him -- no visible stats, can go through portals, etc. -- were specifically programmed into the Perfect Warlord spell.

    I agree with your points 100%.

    I don't see any support for the theory that the Perfect Warlord was intended to be summoned in the MK, and would naturally need to be able to utilize Portals. We know that casters do go to the cities of Sides to perform their hired casting. This is said to be true of those casters Charlie hires, and Vanna is another example of a traveling caster. On the other hand, I don't recall a single instance of a hired caster remaining in the MK to perform their task. So speaking only from the point of view of established precedent, there is no reason to think that the summoned Perfect Warlord would ever need to pass through a Portal.

    That's not to say that I won't be proven wrong. I just don't see the evidence for this particular TFH theory being credible, at this time.

    ftl wrote:
    [...] even if you knew of the perfect warlord spell, it would be natural to assume that what they'd get is a traditional Erf warlord, only perfect - makes the best decisions, very high (highest known?) bonus, high duty/loyalty, etc. Parson's just so different than what they'd expect from a perfect warlord that EVEN if they knew of the spell, they could still be blindsided by its effects.
    I disagree. If you actually knew of the perfect warlord spell, you would be aware that it was capable of summoning from "anywhere in all existence." Knowing this, it would be very short sighted to assume that the spell would summon a "traditional Erf warlord."

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:08 pm 
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    Just because you know there's an eldritch horror in the next room doesn't mean your brain is wired to process it. Also, I don't know why the community at large would be totally up on everyone else's craft, and that they'd know all the details of the spell when you only *know* that 2 or 3 casters actually scribed it. Passing through portals is a very reasonable tag-on when crafting the spell, though as you say Oberon not strictly necessarily the only explanation. As has been long discussed, portals could just have a switch that says "Non-caster? Delete", and folks like Stanley or Wrigley or Bea have the 'Non-caster' tag while Parson has 'Other' in that ID slot.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:50 am 
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    Portal Passing Theories:
    (Feel free to add to this if you feel I've been unfair)

    Parson is undisbandable.
    Supported by: his own musings, the fact he didnt disband when he failed to reduce the GK city upkeep.
    However: Musings are musings, which doesn't mean anything in Canon. Also, he didn't KNOW he was failing to obey on order when he did, which I think is a core component of failing the loyalty/duty check which causes a unit to disband.

    Parson is a Caster.
    Supported by: Janis
    However: Janis' motives are her own. She could be full of it.

    the SPW spell requires portal access.
    Supported by: ...nothing? Although it makes sense to at least some of us..
    However: Honestly there's nothing in the comic that suggests this.


    I acknowledge the point that the Casters at the portal were shocked to see Parson enter the MK, but I feel that its perfectly acceptable to say that they simply didn't know of the SPW spell and/or who it was sold to and/or what it was capable of producing.

    I also tip my hat to the possibilty that the Casters fully intended to travel to GK to cast the spell there, but when I sell someone a PC, I dont ask to come to their house to build it - I do it off-site and provide the finished product. (Although there's no possibility that same PC might remember how to get back to my work and kick my ass, so you know... subtle differences..)

    So looking at these, I dont think there's enough evidence to push one theory above the others, except for what works well in our own minds. To me, all the theories have pros and cons which pretty much break even, so as much as I truly like the latest theory for its originality and simplicity, im not putting money on any of them just yet.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:09 am 
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    CorrTerek wrote:
    [W]hen Parson came through the portal the first time it took everyone by surprise. If the spell was designed to allow him to walk through portals as needed, wouldn't they already know who he was? I mean, GK buys the spell, and then here a few turns later a guy comes walking through the portal whose stats you can't see and doesn't look like a caster?


    gaiaswill wrote:

    Well I don't quite think that it's a fair expectation that all MK casters knew or cared about the spell. Summon Perfect Warlord seems to require just Findamancy and Predictamancy. For casters outside of those fields, it's firmly SEP territory--a piece of gossip perhaps, but not a serious concern.


    I think, a lot of the time, something that you create can take on a life of its own that surprises you. It's quite possible that the casters who crafted the "summon perfect warlord" spell fully expected ... say, a super-Duncan to show up. There's really nothing quite like Parson (other than potatoes) in Erf. Presumably there aren't many walking potatos, much less walking potatos that enter the Magic Kingdom.

    They were expecting the best possible warlord - but a "warlord" entirely within conventions. We don't know if the Magic Kingdom has a lot of knowledge or research into "all of creation", including things beyond Erf, such that they would have conceived of the possibility of someone from a world with completely different mechanics (like ours) in any way being possibly workable, much less perfect, as a warlord for Erf. Did Janis and Sizemore (or some facsimile thereof) ever sit around in a circle and chit chat about how "there's this really strange place, where the denizens actually play games, that bear a remarkable resemblance to how our world actually is?".



    gaiaswill wrote:
    This brings up the greater question of why nobody else bought the spell first. I'm willing to say that GK was in a unique position where they still had money, the cost of the spell mattered less than usual (Stanley can't take the treasury with him) and the need for its effect was the greatest (no CW candidates for the capital's last stand). For everyone else who has perfectly good warlords already, it is easy to ignore an overpriced item you do not need.


    agreed - and, on top of this, even Wanda said to Stanley that the spell probably wouldn't be enough to save them. So perfect does not mean "invincible" or "infallible" - it just so happened that Parson did in fact have a way out for them. From the briefing Ansom was giving before the attack, they had several times the necessary forces to completely destroy GK. People generally don't insure against something that they cannot conceive of happening. Why buy the spell just to deny GK's use of it, when you're pretty damn sure the outcome is a forgone conclusion?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:33 am 
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    Smoker wrote:
    Parson is a Caster.
    Supported by: Janis


    I think this is also supported by the fact that Signamancy is a form of Hippiemancy.

    And he used to work at Kinkos. Not only that, but he is also aware of the various "in jokes" that are prevalent in Erfworld, which can also be a form of signamancy.

    He might just not know he can cast anything because he hasn't learned any spells yet.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 42
     Post Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:00 am 
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    Abbacabba wrote:
    or (on an enemy's Turn) by being captured and transported as a prisoner.


    For that to work, he would need to convince someone in the RCC to transport him. Also, they would need to have something like the dwagon relay to actually get him to Jetstone.

    Perhaps, the portal to a lesser city idea could be combined with this. He uses the portal to travel to GK's capital site city that is nearest Spacerock and is transported on from there.

    OTOH, only Jillian seems to have a large enough air force with units in position to pull that off. Also, as a heavy unit, he can't actually use the dwagon relay.

    I wonder if his upgrade changes his status in that regard. Maybe garrison units cannot fly on dwagons.

    Also, I wonder if "capture" is a specific mechanic that changes a unit's stats. Does it just mean that you can cross hex boundaries as long as you are carried by an enemy unit. I wonder if a unit was captured could it then walk across a hex boundary. Being pulled in chains might be required.

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