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 Post Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:17 am 
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ugh...another jillian centered update :(

can we return to the real interesting story now? i hate wanda for letting jillian go alive :D

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I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:20 am 
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    DevilDan wrote:
    Actually, only now do I think that Jill is becoming a little more interesting, as she adjusts to being a ruler, as she is forced to at least consider (if not necessarily act upon, apparently) larger issues. She at least is beginning to appreciate how much more complex the situation is. And like Parson, she is perhaps getting tired of being a pawn rather than a player.


    Think of her as Trammenis' opposite. Slately the Commander got a clever, philosophical diplomat for a heir much to his dissappointment, while Old mellow Banhammer got the ass-kicking, wade-into-it, wild warrior to his.

    Switched at birth, perhaps? :)

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     Post Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:51 am 
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    the_tick_rules wrote:
    Boy, Jillian is complex, and maybe a little bi to.

    Maybe a little bi, too? Did you even read Book 1?

    Given the Erfworld setting, I'm frankly surprised that there isn't more bisexual behavior exhibited. After all, on Erf there is:
    No religion forbidding this behavior (of which we are aware);
    No pregnancy and therefore no argument that sex is strictly for procreation;
    No pregnancy and therefore no argument that homosexual intercourse goes against "nature";
    No marriage (that we have seen);

    The Erf setting seems to have none of the natural and social support mechanisms for stigmatizing homosexuality or bisexuality.

    ftl wrote:
    Is Charlie a thinkamancer? Really a thinkamancer himself? Maybe. Jillian either thinks so and slipped up in letting it out, or she really did mean the "or, at least, he does thinkamancy."
    He either is a Thinkamancer or has been made into one by the Arkendish. We haven't seen any other caster be also a ruler, so the question will remain until it is cleared up by the writer.

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     Post Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:22 am 
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    DevilDan wrote:
    robak wrote:
    HailGreen28 wrote:
    edit: Curious about Jillian's use of the word Disband instead of Damn. Wonder if being disbanded means you don't go to "Heaven" (City of Heroes).

    Also wondering if you can disband captured units. Or if the side they're captured from can disband them (to prevent turning). Or maybe at that point Ansom can only be croaked but not disbanded?


    Why bother disbanding when you could get XP for killing?

    Actually, only now do I think that Jill is becoming a little more interesting, as she adjusts to being a ruler, as she is forced to at least consider (if not necessarily act upon, apparently) larger issues. She at least is beginning to appreciate how much more complex the situation is. And like Parson, she is perhaps getting tired of being a pawn rather than a player.
    Maybe you don't get XP for killing your own units. In most games that would be a cheap way to level.

    In any case, I was just wondering if Erfworld has a belief system or actual mechanism that being Disbanded = Damned. Do not pass go. Do not enter the City of Heroes.

    Naw, so far Jillian is still all about Jillian. How dare Charlie try to kill her boyfriend!

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     Post Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:16 pm 
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    HailGreen28 wrote:
    DevilDan wrote:
    Actually, only now do I think that Jill is becoming a little more interesting, as she adjusts to being a ruler, as she is forced to at least consider (if not necessarily act upon, apparently) larger issues. She at least is beginning to appreciate how much more complex the situation is. And like Parson, she is perhaps getting tired of being a pawn rather than a player.

    Naw, so far Jillian is still all about Jillian. How dare Charlie try to kill her boyfriend!

    Both are true, and can be reconciled easily enough -- Jillian is only concerned with her own interests, yes, but has at least started to pay more attention to her own long-term interests even when they get in the way of her immediate desires.

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     Post Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:58 pm 
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    With respect to Jillian's love for Ansom:

    I wonder if maybe Ansom was never in love with Jillian. This might explain his cluelessness when she was talking to him about her "distraction". Maybe all he ever had was a simple attraction to her. If this is the case, and she was to find out, it would destroy her. Unrequited love might be the cruelest form of love.

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     Post Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:55 am 
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    I see the full consent here, that Ansom can't be truly turned while decripted. But what if he would be resurrected?
    I think, healomancer-thinkamancer-croakamancer caster link can do the trick.

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     Post Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:01 am 
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    Quote:
    Eventually, they flew out from under the clouds and entered a sunny hex. Clear of enemy units. Jillian sighed through her nose.


    I wonder if bad weather in a given hex provides some kind of cover for enemies in surrounding hexes. From Jillian's reaction, it seems like she at least thought it was possible to encounter an enemy in the first clear hex she enetered. Maybe it's a mechanic that has an effect on the visual range of fliers.

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     Post Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:21 am 
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    we know that gwiffons and megalogwiffs become squishy under rain. this might give them some penalties to their stats, such as defence and move.
    i came to this conclusion because them getting squishy MUST have some effect in stats since erfworld doesn't have much visual effects without any influence in actual game play.

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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:23 pm 
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    zilfallon wrote:
    we know that gwiffons and megalogwiffs become squishy under rain. this might give them some penalties to their stats, such as defence and move.
    i came to this conclusion because them getting squishy MUST have some effect in stats since erfworld doesn't have much visual effects without any influence in actual game play.


    It probably affects both their Crispness and Stickiness attributes, thereby altering their Flavor and Chewiness stats. Marbits, no doubt, suffer similar changes in conditions of high humidity and as they age.

    Remember, Kids! Marbits: Breakfast of Perfect Warlords and a part of balanced battles every turn.

    But to be less facetious about this- probably not. The effect was described as being slight, though noticeable, so I doubt they go all soggy and overly runny from rainfall.

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     Post Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:15 pm 
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    I think Charlie is one of those people who wants people working FOR him, not WITH him . . . In Book 1, Charlie refers several times to having Parson working FOR him. I doubt Parson would set still for that, given that he's a player, not a piece And I think Charlie has a REAL problem with that sort of attitude.

    Remember, it was Parson who took a totally unwinnable situation where he was literally on the verge of being croaked, and turned it into the most destructive, expensive, theoretically impossible win in all of Erf history. A multi-hex deathtrap - Impossible!! And worse, he was somehow (through Wanda) able to not only recover his Archons from beyond the pale, but turn them in such a manner as they revealed a great many of his secrets and methods.

    This is probably the single greatest danger / challenge he's ever faced. A player, a TRUE player from the outside who can look at the rules from a fresh perspective, find loopholes and exploits that are even beyond Charlie's ability. This is more dangerous to his position than any Erfer could ever be . . .

    Given that, Charlie now regards Parson as being the single greatest danger confronting him. I doubt he wants Parson working for him any more, as Parson would be more than capable of supplanting him if he got the notion. Charlie HAS to kill Parson now - he knows far too much to remain alive. Defeating GK is the first step . . .

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     Post Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:25 pm 
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    Sieggy wrote:
    I think Charlie is one of those people who wants people working FOR him, not WITH him . . . In Book 1, Charlie refers several times to having Parson working FOR him. I doubt Parson would set still for that, given that he's a player, not a piece And I think Charlie has a REAL problem with that sort of attitude.

    Remember, it was Parson who took a totally unwinnable situation where he was literally on the verge of being croaked, and turned it into the most destructive, expensive, theoretically impossible win in all of Erf history. A multi-hex deathtrap - Impossible!! And worse, he was somehow (through Wanda) able to not only recover his Archons from beyond the pale, but turn them in such a manner as they revealed a great many of his secrets and methods.

    This is probably the single greatest danger / challenge he's ever faced. A player, a TRUE player from the outside who can look at the rules from a fresh perspective, find loopholes and exploits that are even beyond Charlie's ability. This is more dangerous to his position than any Erfer could ever be . . .

    Given that, Charlie now regards Parson as being the single greatest danger confronting him. I doubt he wants Parson working for him any more, as Parson would be more than capable of supplanting him if he got the notion. Charlie HAS to kill Parson now - he knows far too much to remain alive. Defeating GK is the first step . . .


    Tbh, while Parson did an awesome job thinking outside the box at TBFGK and the zombcano was impressive. Parson did not know, nor could he have known, that Wanda would be able to attune to the pliers and decrypt an entire army (including archons) I dont think you can add the "stealing archons from Charlie" thing to the list of "awesome things Parson did" because it kind of happend by accident.

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     Post Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:37 pm 
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    timh wrote:

    Tbh, while Parson did an awesome job thinking outside the box at TBFGK and the zombcano was impressive. Parson did not know, nor could he have known, that Wanda would be able to attune to the pliers and decrypt an entire army (including archons) I dont think you can add the "stealing archons from Charlie" thing to the list of "awesome things Parson did" because it kind of happend by accident.


    How does Charlie know that? That's the issue. While yes, Parson had NO knowledge or control or even solid influence on the exact interaction, it did happen. Parson was Chief Warlord at the time. It could be argued that the zombcano thing caused Wanda to level up to a mythical extent, from Charlie's view anyway, which leads on to question CAN casters level during links? If they can, then where did the experience go?

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     Post Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:53 pm 
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    Chameon wrote:
    timh wrote:

    Tbh, while Parson did an awesome job thinking outside the box at TBFGK and the zombcano was impressive. Parson did not know, nor could he have known, that Wanda would be able to attune to the pliers and decrypt an entire army (including archons) I dont think you can add the "stealing archons from Charlie" thing to the list of "awesome things Parson did" because it kind of happend by accident.


    How does Charlie know that? That's the issue. While yes, Parson had NO knowledge or control or even solid influence on the exact interaction, it did happen. Parson was Chief Warlord at the time. It could be argued that the zombcano thing caused Wanda to level up to a mythical extent, from Charlie's view anyway, which leads on to question CAN casters level during links? If they can, then where did the experience go?


    I think the greater likelihood is that casting an epic spell did get the three casters some experience, but there was no experience accrued from the victims of the resurrected Gobwin Knob.

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     Post Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:22 pm 
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    text Updates 028 wrote:
    She told him about Sammy, and what her exchange with him had meant, just before Ansom felled him. “I didn’t come here to dust you. And I didn’t intend to let it happen, if I could help it. Charlie...I guess had other ideas. But he doesn’t usually like to get directly involved in fights unless someone hires him. So I’m trying to figure out what he did to Haggar to lean on them, and why.”

    Pinned in the gummy niche below the armor plating, Ansom’s head made a weak side-to-side motion. “I cannot imagine.”

    “I can,” said Jillian. “And if it’s what I think, then I don’t know if I can keep doing any kind of business with him.”

    I think this shows Jillian does *not* just think about self but has 'ethics' concepts.

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:34 am 
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    Quote:
    I think this shows Jillian does *not* just think about self but has 'ethics' concepts.


    Nope. Still shows she's thinking about herself. "If he threatened them, he'll threaten me. Not cool."

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:00 am 
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    CorrTerek wrote:
    Quote:
    I think this shows Jillian does *not* just think about self but has 'ethics' concepts.


    Nope. Still shows she's thinking about herself. "If he threatened them, he'll threaten me. Not cool."

    That bit of game theory there is the corner stone for our morals too.

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:42 am 
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    spriteless wrote:
    CorrTerek wrote:
    Quote:
    I think this shows Jillian does *not* just think about self but has 'ethics' concepts.


    Nope. Still shows she's thinking about herself. "If he threatened them, he'll threaten me. Not cool."

    That bit of game theory there is the corner stone for our morals too.


    Eh, wot? I thought the Prisoners' Dilemma (which the quoted thing ain't) can claim to be the cornerstone of morals. The quoted thing is pretty much petty self interest, nothing more.

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:23 am 
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    Maybe it's got more than one corner :D

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:24 am 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    spriteless wrote:
    CorrTerek wrote:

    Nope. Still shows she's thinking about herself. "If he threatened them, he'll threaten me. Not cool."

    That bit of game theory there is the corner stone for our morals too.


    Eh, wot? I thought the Prisoners' Dilemma (which the quoted thing ain't) can claim to be the cornerstone of morals. The quoted thing is pretty much petty self interest, nothing more.


    I think he might be referring to the Tit For Tat program, the strategy that most consistently wins the Prisoner's Dilemma game. Basically, every time you meet a new player, you try cooperation, then, in each subsequent encounter, you treat that player the same as he treated you in your last encounter. The strategy is based not so much on self interest as on altruistic punishment: "if you screwed me last time, I'll take pains to screw you this time, even at a risk to myself".

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