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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 313
 Post Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:14 pm 
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Regarding Maggie and Parson:

Signamancy is... weird. I've been taught that looks aren't important, that it's what's on the inside that counts, beauty is only skin deep, etc. (despite how media and the world in general works, to be honest, but whatever). I would guess that most people have been raised on some of these.

And yet we have Signamancy, which pretty much makes it so that what you think of yourself and how you feel others view you magically affects your outward appearance.

In Stupidworld, most people would be upset to learn someone had to change their physical appearance to gain a partner/spouse (yet we love those "she was beautiful all along" trope romcoms; Titans humans are weird). So I think that's where we get the hang up about Maggie needing to change her Signamancy, either naturally or through cosmetics (a la Delphie).

That's why I feel conflicted at least. Because magically I know it means that Maggie feels good about herself, but if Parson suddenly becomes interested in her because her appearance changes, well then that makes him seem shallow.

I think it would be better if Parson recognizes that he loves Maggie before she completely changes. It's pretty much already there. They challenge each other mentally, they enjoy each other's company, they obviously care about each other.

Maybe in the meantime we have Lilith, Bonnie and Maggie all vie for his affection, and make this story the Harem Anime it was always meant to be :P

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 313
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:54 pm 
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    Lazuul wrote:
    Charlie had to make sure to not know anything Jillian was up to.



    Well sure, except that Charile totally knew what Jillian as up to. And intentionally put guns into her hands for her to end up doing what he wanted her to do to the party to his non-aggression clause.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 313
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:57 pm 
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    Jade wrote:
    In Stupidworld, most people would be upset to learn someone had to change their physical appearance to gain a partner/spouse (yet we love those "she was beautiful all along" trope romcoms; Titans humans are weird). So I think that's where we get the hang up about Maggie needing to change her Signamancy, either naturally or through cosmetics (a la Delphie).




    What Stupidworld do you live in? The one I live in, the cosmetic industry (just one industry catering to altering one's appearance) is a billion dollar market of women changing their physical appearance to get/gain/keep a partner/spouse.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 313
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:03 pm 
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    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    Jade wrote:
    In Stupidworld, most people would be upset to learn someone had to change their physical appearance to gain a partner/spouse (yet we love those "she was beautiful all along" trope romcoms; Titans humans are weird). So I think that's where we get the hang up about Maggie needing to change her Signamancy, either naturally or through cosmetics (a la Delphie).




    What Stupidworld do you live in? The one I live in, the cosmetic industry (just one industry catering to altering one's appearance) is a billion dollar market of women changing their physical appearance to get/gain/keep a partner/spouse.


    Please see my first paragraph that pretty much states what we're taught and how the actual world works are completely different.

    Do I need to correct my statement to say "most people that care about people"? I'm saying individual people would be upset, not that society and the world at large doesn't put pressure on people to do it.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 313
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:27 pm 
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    I think that Bill's strike on Magieonette counts as a contract penalty.

    Charlie was of the opinion that Wanda could hit his Archons zillions of times enough to drain GKs treasury. I don't think but cannot prove they have that many hitpoints. It would seem to me that given how exceedingly careful that Charlescomm's Archons were to not even touch Lilith even the slightest bit, and how she tried to move in such a way that they might do it, a non-hitpoint-removing touch is enough.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 313
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:35 pm 
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    Nakedkali wrote:
    I think that Bill's strike on Magieonette counts as a contract penalty.

    Charlie was of the opinion that Wanda could hit his Archons zillions of times enough to drain GKs treasury. I don't think but cannot prove they have that many hitpoints. It would seem to me that given how exceedingly careful that Charlescomm's Archons were to not even touch Lilith even the slightest bit, and how she tried to move in such a way that they might do it, a non-hitpoint-removing touch is enough.


    Good point, as the archons also tried body blocking Lilith in and she was afraid to even touch them.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 313
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:54 pm 
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    drachefly wrote:
    Hero of Shadows wrote:
    The only reason Parson can have to be reluctant on moving forward with Maggie is her looks… try to imagine forcing yourself to be attracted to someone you're just not attracted to at all.


    Looks is just a part of being attractive, even at a superficial level.

    I have a friend who I found just annoying for a long time. This being Finland, and us being young 20somethings I saw her naked several times too (sauna, body painting), to the reaction of ”It’s not like there’s anything wrong with her”.

    Eventually I got to actually know her and like her. Guess what? It turned out that she’s actually very attractive indeed, and smoking hot.

    I’m a redblooded straight male, and yet I literally didn’t realise that this friend of a friend was actually super good looking because I was annoyed with her.

    Attraction is weird and people are complicated.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 313
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:14 pm 
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    Nakedkali wrote:
    I think that Bill's strike on Magieonette counts as a contract penalty.

    Charlie was of the opinion that Wanda could hit his Archons zillions of times enough to drain GKs treasury. I don't think but cannot prove they have that many hitpoints. It would seem to me that given how exceedingly careful that Charlescomm's Archons were to not even touch Lilith even the slightest bit, and how she tried to move in such a way that they might do it, a non-hitpoint-removing touch is enough.

    Isn't Magieonette considered a Charliescomm unit? If so there's no penalty. The assumption Bill is making is that Dolls can't turn because they have no will of their own. The development of Magieonette that we have seen suggests otherwise. The only unknown is if Magieonette did turn could she still effectively be disbanded by Bill? Who would take care of her life string?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 313
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:29 pm 
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    alowe wrote:
    Nakedkali wrote:
    I think that Bill's strike on Magieonette counts as a contract penalty.

    Charlie was of the opinion that Wanda could hit his Archons zillions of times enough to drain GKs treasury. I don't think but cannot prove they have that many hitpoints. It would seem to me that given how exceedingly careful that Charlescomm's Archons were to not even touch Lilith even the slightest bit, and how she tried to move in such a way that they might do it, a non-hitpoint-removing touch is enough.

    Isn't Magieonette considered a Charliescomm unit? If so there's no penalty. The assumption Bill is making is that Dolls can't turn because they have no will of their own. The development of Magieonette that we have seen suggests otherwise. The only unknown is if Magieonette did turn could she still effectively be disbanded by Bill? Who would take care of her life string?


    Its a drawn out set of replies to a post of mine that I think the slap to Makaleka/Magionette may be a contract violation because it hurt Maggie. Question is, does intent matter, and did it constitute "material harm" Like most contract discussions, its gone off the rails a bit...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 313
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:03 pm 
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    I don't think it went too far off the rails. We don't agree on an answer, but that's not a surprise. ;)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 313
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:14 pm 
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    Love is (imo) attraction plus respect. Parson has a lot of respect for Maggie, but very little attraction.

    If Parson becomes physically attracted to Maggie, it neither reduces nor invalidates his respect for her. It simply adds a dimension to his feelings for her that allows a romantic relationship to form.

    If she was beautiful and he had to find a way to respect her as a person, I would find it far more disheartening.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 313
     Post Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:35 pm 
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    Nakedkali wrote:
    I think that Bill's strike on Magieonette counts as a contract penalty.

    Charlie was of the opinion that Wanda could hit his Archons zillions of times enough to drain GKs treasury. I don't think but cannot prove they have that many hitpoints. It would seem to me that given how exceedingly careful that Charlescomm's Archons were to not even touch Lilith even the slightest bit, and how she tried to move in such a way that they might do it, a non-hitpoint-removing touch is enough.

    That's what you got from the Charlie's story on Scoobydom and Tweedledom? The impression I had was that back when Charlie made the truce between those two sides, he was still ironing out the kinks in contract law. And that he has since then learnt from his mistakes so that his more modern truce with Gobwin Knob permits the case of nonlethal damage (with the exception of crippling non-lethal damage).

    The story that Charlie told Wanda was for entertainment purposes only. Any resemblence to the circumstances of Gobwin Knob and Charlescomm were purely coincidental.
    If the contract Charlie mentioned between Tweedledom and Scoobydom worked too well, one would think Charlie would learn from that mistake.

    edit:
    alowe wrote:
    Nakedkali wrote:
    I think that Bill's strike on Magieonette counts as a contract penalty.

    Charlie was of the opinion that Wanda could hit his Archons zillions of times enough to drain GKs treasury. I don't think but cannot prove they have that many hitpoints. It would seem to me that given how exceedingly careful that Charlescomm's Archons were to not even touch Lilith even the slightest bit, and how she tried to move in such a way that they might do it, a non-hitpoint-removing touch is enough.

    Isn't Magieonette considered a Charliescomm unit? If so there's no penalty. The assumption Bill is making is that Dolls can't turn because they have no will of their own. The development of Magieonette that we have seen suggests otherwise. The only unknown is if Magieonette did turn could she still effectively be disbanded by Bill? Who would take care of her life string?

    Doubt Bill could disband Magieonette now, even if she wasn't a special doll. Bill doesn't really have the juice to do any psuedo-disbanding tricks right now.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 313
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:03 am 
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    Skull the Troll wrote:
    Its a drawn out set of replies to a post of mine that I think the slap to Makaleka/Magionette may be a contract violation because it hurt Maggie. Question is, does intent matter, and did it constitute "material harm" Like most contract discussions, its gone off the rails a bit...

    I'd say that Bill obviously cannot intend to hurt Maggie by that indirect route because he doesn't know. That means his ruler is responsible for his actions and that ruler is Charlie, and since Charlie accepted the terms of his own contract, he cannot claim ignorance of the consequences.

    But to me it's too vague/disconnected. If damage includes being hurt seeing someone else being hurt (whether they have a piece of your string or not) then any feeling of pain is generated within the individual perceiving that hurt. So in this case, if Maggie is hurt seeing Maggionette being hurt then it's Maggie that's hurting herself. Sounds cold but that's the way I read it.

    What I'm curious about is Maggionette's life string. That's the string that all other strings need for the unit to be 'alive'. If that string is from Maggie then Maggionette lives as long as Maggie lives. But I'd say Bill still has the ability to cut that string. He knows it's there and he knows how to do it because he stole/copied it from Maggie and put it there. We also know people know how to copy and cut life strings, e.g. Wanda, Bonny and Bigthink, so that part at least, is confirmed.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 313
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:47 am 
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    Bobfromjanitorial wrote:
    Love is (imo) attraction plus respect. Parson has a lot of respect for Maggie, but very little attraction.

    If Parson becomes physically attracted to Maggie, it neither reduces nor invalidates his respect for her. It simply adds a dimension to his feelings for her that allows a romantic relationship to form.

    If she was beautiful and he had to find a way to respect her as a person, I would find it far more disheartening.


    Pretty much this. ^

    He said pretty explicitly to Janice that the problem was her signamancy. Something along the lines of "It's a cross between an old lady and a little girl." Something that perhaps Erfworlders wouldn't understand, but we should.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 313
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:55 am 
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    Waffle_Iron wrote:
    Bobfromjanitorial wrote:
    Love is (imo) attraction plus respect. Parson has a lot of respect for Maggie, but very little attraction.

    If Parson becomes physically attracted to Maggie, it neither reduces nor invalidates his respect for her. It simply adds a dimension to his feelings for her that allows a romantic relationship to form.

    If she was beautiful and he had to find a way to respect her as a person, I would find it far more disheartening.


    Pretty much this. ^

    He said pretty explicitly to Janice that the problem was her signamancy. Something along the lines of "It's a cross between an old lady and a little girl." Something that perhaps Erfworlders wouldn't understand, but we should.

    I guess because Erfworlders don't procreate they don't associate youth with sexual potential. Makes me wonder what they do consider attractive and why. I remember the Archons using their sexuality to distract some footsoldiers, but now I'm confused as to why that worked.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 313
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:48 am 
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    Near as I can tell, the Archons in book 2 were using a form of Shockmancy to distract the enemy. It's not clear whether this was an actual spell (requiring juice), or some kind of natural Shockmancy. Nor was it clear whether their Signamancy mattered.

    The entire scene was rather reminiscent of the "panty freak-outs" in the Xanth novels by Piers Anthony. In those books, it's a natural magic inherent in panties on a female body, which affects all male viewers. Very sexist by today's standards.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 313
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:30 pm 
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    greycat wrote:
    Near as I can tell, the Archons in book 2 were using a form of Shockmancy to distract the enemy. It's not clear whether this was an actual spell (requiring juice), or some kind of natural Shockmancy. Nor was it clear whether their Signamancy mattered.

    The entire scene was rather reminiscent of the "panty freak-outs" in the Xanth novels by Piers Anthony. In those books, it's a natural magic inherent in panties on a female body, which affects all male viewers. Very sexist by today's standards.

    Lol, I don't think panties on a female body is sexist. It's not sexist for a woman to be sexy.

    Then again I also think all PC nonsense is bullshit. It can all be mitigated by simple basic human respect which is the thing we humans sacrificed when we took up the PC banner.

    Let's turn this on it's head. Would I be offended if a stereotypical male was used to distract women? Like a sweaty fit lumberjack with bulging muscles? No, lol. Because it happens in real life. I'd see it as no more offensive than the moon. Society and the world today have hangups inside their hangups going many levels deep. For me it's simple. See people as human. No problem. Bring in the labels. Problem.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 313
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:33 pm 
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    I called it sexist because it only works in the one direction. The same magic doesn't work if a woman views a man wearing underwear, no matter how sexy the man is. Or women viewing other women, regardless of sexual orientation. But that's a totally different work of fiction, not related to Erfworld.

    For the Archons' "flash mob", we simply don't know the details yet. We may never learn them. It may simply have been a one-off joke.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 313
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:16 pm 
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    Erfworlders certainly have a concept of attractive (and thus unattractive)

    Wanda, Olive, every Archon, Vinnie, Ansom are all considered attractive in scenes that are not from Parson's POV.

    Yes they can't breed but they still do assign attractiveness to signamancy which in our world is also attractive (because it correlates with fertility, but I'm no social scientist so I might be wrong on that)

    Also old/tired/unhealthy signamancy is a sign of inner decay, Slately and Don didn't fight so they grew fat and old(old might be also associated with wisdom)

    Using signamancy shouldn't be looked upon down unless you also IRL look down upon people who wear make-up or get periodical hair cuts.

    My whole point with signamancy is that since Maggie is learning date-a-mancy signamancy is just across the street magic grid wise, I wasn't trying to say Maggie should drop everything and focus on it.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 313
     Post Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:10 pm 
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    greycat wrote:
    The same magic doesn't work if a woman views a man wearing underwear, no matter how sexy the man is.

    Now, this is very sexist lol

    greycat wrote:
    For the Archons' "flash mob", we simply don't know the details yet. We may never learn them. It may simply have been a one-off joke.

    Yes, that's how I interpreted it at the time, as a one-off joke. Otherwise it would become seedy and Erfworld is too classy for that :D

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