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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 312
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:00 pm 
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Just had a strange (and exciting) thought.

Wanda goes to Jillian and Jillian learns of Wanda's betrayal. Everything is dripping with tears and drama, this is it, this is the reason, this is the full confession from Wanda to the woman she's manipulated and betrayed.

And Wanda answers the question "why" with the answer "because Charlie told me to".

I'm not saying "what if that's true" because we know it's not. I'm saying, what if Wanda lies and tries to pin it on Charlie.

And what if Jillian believes her?

Wanda would be there, with Claud and Ivan, ready and able to turn everything against Charlie with guns and advice and upkeep free decrypted giants. Wind her up and let her go.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 312
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:33 am 
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    greycat wrote:
    Maelfaesh wrote:
    How the heck is Transylvito going to end their turn? Will it naturally end after so much time goes by? I don't remember.

    We're in Patches 11:1-5 Overtime now. The turn will end if all the TV units use up all their move without rescuing their Ruler, or if they simply take too long (when the "natural end of turn comes", however that works -- we have no idea).



    Why do we think we're in overtime?

    Turn was trundling along, then the Bill/Tower thing happened, which has been ten minutes max.

    Plenty of time left.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 312
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:51 am 
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    Pointyleaf wrote:
    Umbrathor wrote:
    Adept wrote:
    Not only that, but Claud would undermine Ace as a character, by virtue of upstaging him in pretty much every way. They are even both decrypted. I fear Claud's story will come to an unhappy end fairly soon.

    Nonsense. Ivan and Claud will soon become the proud purveyors of garments and guns for the Royal House of Faq. Together with their Dearly Beloved Croakamancer ArchChief.



    Hmm. Well, Ace adores "Chief Volcano", more than we've ever seen him adore Wanda. Maybe, when it comes down to it, his loyalties will be with Parson, and we'll get to see what happens when a decrypted is no longer part of Wanda's side.

    I get the impression loyalty to Wanda transcends the sides, possibly in the same way dolls remain loyal to their creators... not sure about that last one.

    Plenty of things in Erfworld transcend normal relations, like the towers sending juice etc. Loyalty, juice and strings can be sneaky.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 312
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:03 am 
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    Jade wrote:
    tomaO2 wrote:

    DeanXeL wrote:
    Maggie is inching closer and closer to that Master-level, being without juice really puts things in perspective, doesn't it? Noticing Feelings, and also the Little Thinking everyone always does, getting rid of that biased look of "Thinking Alike is the Best Thinking". I'm loving it!


    I'm hearing a lot of calls for Maggie to evolve but lets throw Sizemore some love, okay? He's gone through TWO massive shakeups in his worldview, learning about uncroaking volcanoes, and we had a chapter with him feeling like this revelation could help him become a master, but wasn't quite enough on its own, and finding out that towers can become something like a unit. In addition, he's higher leveled (I think it would be REALLY hard for a level 4, like Maggie, to evolve. The lowest leveled master thinkmancer listed was at 7), and has had a lot more time to consider what the revelations mean.

    I think that Sizemore should class up first.


    While I do like Sizemore, and want him to get some development, I don't think that's happening anytime soon.

    Sizemore was Parson's first friend in Erfworld, and helped him in gaining knowledge about the world he had been summoned to. I really miss that interaction between them.

    Since the Volcano Croakageddon (can we make Croakageddon a thing? Please? It would be so fetch), Sizemore has resented Parson for making him complicit in the croaking of thousands of units. He's also resentful of Parson for destroying MK norms and making them enemies to the entire island. I think that since that point the story has moved away from Sizemore and focused more on Parson becoming friends with Jack and Maggie, units that both appreciated his talents and way of thinking, and had no qualms that his ideas could lead to units being croaked.

    With Wanda stuck underground, and Maggie/Jack in TV, it's nice getting to see Sizemore as a Chief Caster. But I can also see him pushed out of the spotlight as soon as the more active characters return to GK; after all, he's a pacifist stuck in a war game. He doesn't want to hurt others, and he doesn't want to level up by hurting others.

    What I'm really hoping for if we are to see more of Sizemore in the story, is for him and Parson to have some sort of resolution/closure. Maybe some sort of understanding that the Volcano and MK situations were not ideal, and not something Parson wants to repeat, and that he is overall trying to reduce casualties amongst all the sides (breaking war and from Maggie's speech about being better than Charlie and not every idea has to be used). And Sizemore understanding that by helping Parson he is furthering his goal of peace on Erf.

    I think by removing this wall between them, Sizemore will be able to be a more active member of the side, thus more screen time, and so more opportunities to grow and develop as a Caster and as a Character.

    I'm not sure if I'm saying what I want to say properly, so I hope this all makes sense :P

    tl;dr version?

    Sizemore -->Not friends with Parson -->No screen time as story focuses on Parson -->No chances to be badass

    Sizemore -->Friends with Parson -->In story now that he's hanging around with Parson again -->Get to see sweet sweet development

    While I can endorse your preferred outcome (as expressed in your tl;dr summary), I strongly encourage you to stop trying to make Croakageddon happen. It’s NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!

    I am starting to come around on “fetch,” though.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 312
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:32 am 
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    Pointyleaf wrote:
    Umbrathor wrote:
    Adept wrote:
    Not only that, but Claud would undermine Ace as a character, by virtue of upstaging him in pretty much every way. They are even both decrypted. I fear Claud's story will come to an unhappy end fairly soon.

    Nonsense. Ivan and Claud will soon become the proud purveyors of garments and guns for the Royal House of Faq. Together with their Dearly Beloved Croakamancer ArchChief.



    Hmm. Well, Ace adores "Chief Volcano", more than we've ever seen him adore Wanda. Maybe, when it comes down to it, his loyalties will be with Parson, and we'll get to see what happens when a decrypted is no longer part of Wanda's side.


    You mean, like, when Ossomer turned back to Jetstone, that other time a decrypted was no longer part of Wanda's side? True, we didn't have him long enough to understand how his upkeep and such would work (dust under the rug and all that), but we do know decrypted CAN turn without insta-death...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 312
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:17 am 
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    Arci wrote:
    Just had a strange (and exciting) thought.

    Wanda goes to Jillian and Jillian learns of Wanda's betrayal. Everything is dripping with tears and drama, this is it, this is the reason, this is the full confession from Wanda to the woman she's manipulated and betrayed.

    And Wanda answers the question "why" with the answer "because Charlie told me to".

    I'm not saying "what if that's true" because we know it's not. I'm saying, what if Wanda lies and tries to pin it on Charlie.

    And what if Jillian believes her?

    Wanda would be there, with Claud and Ivan, ready and able to turn everything against Charlie with guns and advice and upkeep free decrypted giants. Wind her up and let her go.


    Marie is conveniently placed in the dungeon near the portal, so Wanda could hook up with her before finding Jillian. Wanda hasn't mentioned Marie, but knows she was decrypted and may know she turned.

    I don't know how much she senses her decrypted, but it seems similar to a ruler sense. So she might simply know where Marie is as soon as she exits the portal.

    Wanda may not trust many people. But Marie seems like an exception.

    There is always the argument that everything really is Charlie's fault, froma certain point of view.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 312
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:37 am 
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    DeanXeL wrote:
    Pointyleaf wrote:
    Hmm. Well, Ace adores "Chief Volcano", more than we've ever seen him adore Wanda. Maybe, when it comes down to it, his loyalties will be with Parson, and we'll get to see what happens when a decrypted is no longer part of Wanda's side.

    You mean, like, when Ossomer turned back to Jetstone, that other time a decrypted was no longer part of Wanda's side?

    Or like when Decrypted Marie turned to Faq.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 312
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:49 am 
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    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    Why do we think we're in overtime?

    Turn was trundling along, then the Bill/Tower thing happened, which has been ten minutes max.

    Plenty of time left.

    It's just an analogy; don't read too much into it. All I meant was that if certain conditions come to pass (all units reach 0 Move before Caesar is rescued), the turn will end. It's similar to "sudden death overtime" in certain sports, in which the clock is running, but it will stop running if someone scores points in a certain way.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 312
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:35 am 
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    greycat wrote:
    DeanXeL wrote:
    Pointyleaf wrote:
    Hmm. Well, Ace adores "Chief Volcano", more than we've ever seen him adore Wanda. Maybe, when it comes down to it, his loyalties will be with Parson, and we'll get to see what happens when a decrypted is no longer part of Wanda's side.

    You mean, like, when Ossomer turned back to Jetstone, that other time a decrypted was no longer part of Wanda's side?

    Or like when Decrypted Marie turned to Faq.


    Yes, also the same. Only problem is, just like Ossomer, we're still in the same Turn as the turning happened, so no idea about other ... implications, you know?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 312
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:34 am 
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    DeanXeL wrote:
    Yes, also the same. Only problem is, just like Ossomer, we're still in the same Turn as the turning happened, so no idea about other ... implications, you know?

    Lillith hasn't been a GK unit at the start of any turn in the last few dozens, I think.

    Edit to add:

    Sides or barbarians who have had Decrypted prisoners at the start of their turn include:
    Jetstone / Lillith
    Charlescomm / Lillith
    FAQ / Ansom
    Transylvito / Jack
    Unspecified Dirtamancer(s) / Beans, Archons
    Possibly also Janis / Beans, Archons

    Yet no one outside of GK has ever once commented on their lack of upkeep. It could be that prisoners are simply special somehow, but I suspect they may not actually be free of upkeep. It may be a special function of the Pliers to provide for the upkeep of Decrypted, so that any Decrypted on another side would simply have a normal expense profile.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 312
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:45 pm 
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    twhitt wrote:
    DeanXeL wrote:
    Yes, also the same. Only problem is, just like Ossomer, we're still in the same Turn as the turning happened, so no idea about other ... implications, you know?

    Lillith hasn't been a GK unit at the start of any turn in the last few dozens, I think.

    Edit to add:

    Sides or barbarians who have had Decrypted prisoners at the start of their turn include:
    Jetstone / Lillith
    Charlescomm / Lillith
    FAQ / Ansom
    Transylvito / Jack
    Unspecified Dirtamancer(s) / Beans, Archons
    Possibly also Janis / Beans, Archons

    Yet no one outside of GK has ever once commented on their lack of upkeep. It could be that prisoners are simply special somehow, but I suspect they may not actually be free of upkeep. It may be a special function of the Pliers to provide for the upkeep of Decrypted, so that any Decrypted on another side would simply have a normal expense profile.
    There was also talk that prisoners might continue to "charge" their parent side for upkeep, although I don't recall that conversation ending in more than speculation. If prisoners charge their parent side for upkeep then decrypted prisoners would cost their captors exactly what anyone should expect them to, nothing. Or maybe some trivial amount for cell maintenance and housekeeping but not their actual upkeep.

    Regardless, the idea makes a certain amount of sense to me from a balance perspective. Poorer sides executing a high-upkeep prisoner (presumably an interesting character) just to stay in the black seems rather anticlimatic to me. And the captive's side paying for their upkeep even while imprisoned would show a genuine interest in their survival, as well providing an incentive for negotiations not to drag on too long. Kind of like POW conditions so crappy that prisoners are forced to beg for generous care packages from the outside if they want to be able to survive.

    Jillian does have Marie captive and turned to her side, which presumably means that Jill should be paying Marie's upkeep one way or another. We haven't had any mention of Jillian noticing that Marie has zero upkeep, although FAQ hasn't had a turn start since Marie turned and Jillian's never been all that observant anyways.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 312
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:17 pm 
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    DukeofTuring wrote:
    twhitt wrote:
    DeanXeL wrote:
    Yes, also the same. Only problem is, just like Ossomer, we're still in the same Turn as the turning happened, so no idea about other ... implications, you know?

    Lillith hasn't been a GK unit at the start of any turn in the last few dozens, I think.

    Edit to add:

    Sides or barbarians who have had Decrypted prisoners at the start of their turn include:
    Jetstone / Lillith
    Charlescomm / Lillith
    FAQ / Ansom
    Transylvito / Jack
    Unspecified Dirtamancer(s) / Beans, Archons
    Possibly also Janis / Beans, Archons

    Yet no one outside of GK has ever once commented on their lack of upkeep. It could be that prisoners are simply special somehow, but I suspect they may not actually be free of upkeep. It may be a special function of the Pliers to provide for the upkeep of Decrypted, so that any Decrypted on another side would simply have a normal expense profile.
    There was also talk that prisoners might continue to "charge" their parent side for upkeep, although I don't recall that conversation ending in more than speculation. If prisoners charge their parent side for upkeep then decrypted prisoners would cost their captors exactly what anyone should expect them to, nothing. Or maybe some trivial amount for cell maintenance and housekeeping but not their actual upkeep.

    Regardless, the idea makes a certain amount of sense to me from a balance perspective. Poorer sides executing a high-upkeep prisoner (presumably an interesting character) just to stay in the black seems rather anticlimatic to me. And the captive's side paying for their upkeep even while imprisoned would show a genuine interest in their survival, as well providing an incentive for negotiations not to drag on too long. Kind of like POW conditions so crappy that prisoners are forced to beg for generous care packages from the outside if they want to be able to survive.

    Jillian does have Marie captive and turned to her side, which presumably means that Jill should be paying Marie's upkeep one way or another. We haven't had any mention of Jillian noticing that Marie has zero upkeep, although FAQ hasn't had a turn start since Marie turned and Jillian's never been all that observant anyways.
    I can't find it now, but I'm pretty sure either Olive or Wanda states the opposite in book 0; Jillian's upkeep was unaffordable for a prisoner, and unless she turned in order to earn her upkeep they would have to disband her. Wish I could find it, but book 0 is LONG.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 312
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:17 pm 
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    While Book 0 gives us a good point of reference it ultimately isn't canon until Rob completes it and the prisoner rules have been retconned quite heavily already since it was written by subsequent books.

    It seems too suspicious that we have not either had a character remark that Decrypted cost no upkeep when they hold them prisoner or that TV a side that was nearly on the verge of bankruptcy didn't remark how expensive Parson was.

    Both are extreme examples of upkeep but no character reaction? Seems odd unless upkeep is simply a static amount (when prisoner) or some variation on that i.e. A minor sliding scale dependant on position Warlords cost more than Pikers.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 312
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:46 pm 
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    CDS wrote:
    While Book 0 gives us a good point of reference it ultimately isn't canon until Rob completes it and the prisoner rules have been retconned quite heavily already since it was written by subsequent books.

    It seems too suspicious that we have not either had a character remark that Decrypted cost no upkeep when they hold them prisoner or that TV a side that was nearly on the verge of bankruptcy didn't remark how expensive Parson was.

    Both are extreme examples of upkeep but no character reaction? Seems odd unless upkeep is simply a static amount (when prisoner) or some variation on that i.e. A minor sliding scale dependant on position Warlords cost more than Pikers.


    Well it might be like this. Lets say you are a stupid world soldier. As a solider, the army is required to pay a certain amount. But if you are a captured soldier , the people who have you captured do not need to pay your salary. They just need to provide enough to feed you. SO it might not matter who is captured. Their upkeep is the same, with perhaps only attributes such whether you are a heavy or not making a difference. And a decrypted needing upkeep just might mean the pliers (or something else) supplies the upkeep and not the side. But when a unit is captured the pliers cannot supply the upkeep anymore, just like a sides tower cannot supply upkeep to a captured unit.

    The same would explain attitude with the magic kingdom short pier. A large part of an upkeep cost could just represent the units value (or wage in Stupid world terms). The moment you are hired for a side erfworld rules enforce the full value, but while a a barbarian caster you only need to support your food cost. SO your upkeep is just cheaper as a barabarian. It is the best answer I have as to why poor casters just don't work on sides for cheap. Erfworld has signamancy wage rules, just like here :lol:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 312
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:00 pm 
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    Yeah sounds plausible in fairness not having to worry about Prisoner upkeep helps the narrative flow better so I am happy it isn't really coming up. I think the story has done well with how it handles money it is a tool that operates in the background to explain things but ultimately doesn't hinder the story - Parson needs to do some crazy plan he can and isn't limited by that particular resource.

    Also being rich also doesn't strike me as being an insta-win because you're limited in how much you can pop so TV aren't suddenly this dominate power because of their wind fall. The only two exceptions to this seems to be natural allies and hiring casters but the latter as an option has always been tough to pull off in the story and the former is an interesting plot point.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 312
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:16 pm 
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    twhitt wrote:
    Jillian does have Marie captive and turned to her side, which presumably means that Jill should be paying Marie's upkeep one way or another. We haven't had any mention of Jillian noticing that Marie has zero upkeep, although FAQ hasn't had a turn start since Marie turned and Jillian's never been all that observant anyways.
    I can't find it now, but I'm pretty sure either Olive or Wanda states the opposite in book 0; Jillian's upkeep was unaffordable for a prisoner, and unless she turned in order to earn her upkeep they would have to disband her. Wish I could find it, but book 0 is LONG.[/quote]

    Marie doesnt have upkeep, shes decrypted.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 312
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:02 pm 
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    Quote:
    Marie doesnt have upkeep, shes decrypted.


    That's the point of the argument; if decrypted don't have upkeep, and this is something groundbreakingly strange like a person having three arms, then why hasn't anyone who held decrypted units captive notice that they didn't have upkeep? Parson would have naturally recognized the importance of this secret and let people who would have the opportunity to tell anyone not to, but when a side's accountant (ruler, moneymancer, chief warlord, whoever) sees that the high profile units they have captured aren't costing upkeep it should have triggered a response, but we have seen none (doesn't mean there haven't been any, but this might have simply been more proof to the royalists that the decrypted aren't units, but are just special uncroaked, since I seem to recall magically created units have little to no upkeep anyways).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 312
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:30 pm 
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    Well I am very late to this topic, so maybe this has been covered. If so, I apologize.

    I don't get the impression that the Maggionette really wants anything, per se. I think it feels an echo of the real Maggie's thoughts and desires, and when those feelings come through strongly enough it can act on them. So when it seems to not want to be a part of Charlescomm, it's because the real Maggie wouldn't want to be a part of Charlescomm.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 312
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:37 pm 
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    I'd agree with that just an echo of Maggie's desires etc I don't think it has autonomy beyond a normal doll.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 312
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:06 am 
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    twhitt wrote:
    DukeofTuring wrote:
    twhitt wrote:
    Lillith hasn't been a GK unit at the start of any turn in the last few dozens, I think.

    Edit to add:

    Sides or barbarians who have had Decrypted prisoners at the start of their turn include:
    Jetstone / Lillith
    Charlescomm / Lillith
    FAQ / Ansom
    Transylvito / Jack
    Unspecified Dirtamancer(s) / Beans, Archons
    Possibly also Janis / Beans, Archons

    Yet no one outside of GK has ever once commented on their lack of upkeep. It could be that prisoners are simply special somehow, but I suspect they may not actually be free of upkeep. It may be a special function of the Pliers to provide for the upkeep of Decrypted, so that any Decrypted on another side would simply have a normal expense profile.
    There was also talk that prisoners might continue to "charge" their parent side for upkeep, although I don't recall that conversation ending in more than speculation. If prisoners charge their parent side for upkeep then decrypted prisoners would cost their captors exactly what anyone should expect them to, nothing. Or maybe some trivial amount for cell maintenance and housekeeping but not their actual upkeep.

    Regardless, the idea makes a certain amount of sense to me from a balance perspective. Poorer sides executing a high-upkeep prisoner (presumably an interesting character) just to stay in the black seems rather anticlimatic to me. And the captive's side paying for their upkeep even while imprisoned would show a genuine interest in their survival, as well providing an incentive for negotiations not to drag on too long. Kind of like POW conditions so crappy that prisoners are forced to beg for generous care packages from the outside if they want to be able to survive.

    Jillian does have Marie captive and turned to her side, which presumably means that Jill should be paying Marie's upkeep one way or another. We haven't had any mention of Jillian noticing that Marie has zero upkeep, although FAQ hasn't had a turn start since Marie turned and Jillian's never been all that observant anyways.
    I can't find it now, but I'm pretty sure either Olive or Wanda states the opposite in book 0; Jillian's upkeep was unaffordable for a prisoner, and unless she turned in order to earn her upkeep they would have to disband her. Wish I could find it, but book 0 is LONG.

    Haffaton was incredibly poor. It could be said that any prisoner that didn't turn wasn't worth the upkeep. Every schmucker counted. And if I recall correctly, Jillian had been prisoner for a while.

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