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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:21 pm 
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splintermute wrote:
Something interesting I noted - according to this klog, city upgrading (even if done by a dirtamancer), golem creation and uncroaking (and also, presumably, decrypting), despite requiring expenditure of juice, are not considered "spells."


Upgrading cities and the actions of dirtamancers are addressed separately in this text. There's no mention of dirtamancer-mediated or -optimized upgrading of cities. Upgrading cities by itself is a function, I'd say, of natural thinkamancy and moneymancy: schmuckers are used up and the city gets upgraded.

I know it's a poor guess in that it doesn't depend on the physics of Erf's hex boundaries, but could archons hold aloft a dwagon carcass as a shield? (Decrypted, of course, are lousy shields because they just dissolve.)

As for projectiles or attack crossing boundaries, I would imagine there might also be penalties. Don't forget you view of what's inside a contiguous hex improves dramatically once you step into it.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:15 pm 
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    RusVal wrote:
    Line up as many archers as you can, and have them fire all their arrows


    <Peeve> Archers do not *fire* their arrows, they *loose* them </Peeve>

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:17 pm 
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    teratorn wrote:
    gazes_also wrote:
    Yay it's back
    So a few points have been cleared up. Ranged weapons cannot pass through hex or zone boundaries off-turn.
    This raises the possibility of creating a barrier of blow pop, battlecrap, arrows, whatever, to block the JS attack.

    What is NOT answered is whether croaked bodies will fall through - the title suggests they may.

    This would mean that physics in Erfworld is intention-dependent. If you shoot at someone off-turn then the projectile will be blocked, but if you drop something with no malicious intent then it will fall to the ground.


    It's implied by Jack's thoughts in text updates 21:

    «This cost no move, but its only effect was to determine which archers could hit them. And on whose heads their corpses would fall, Jack supposed.»

    They can probably remove stacks of archers by dropping dwagons on them (wait until they are low in hitpoints and kill them yourself). The big problem are tower defenses, it would be strange if they couldn't burst through bubblegum easily.


    BUT - if you croak your own dwagon with the intent of dropping it on someone, then it comes a projectile weapon and it shouldn't cross, should it? The only option then would to position it over a stack on the ground and let it be shot down. Both approaches have advantages and disadvantages, defensively and offensively.
    Then again, if you croak your dwagon with the intent of plopping it on the zone floor, not with the intent of using it as a weapon, then it should drop to the ground because it's not a weapon. If you intend it to be a weapon, it will float as a shield, if you intend it to be a shield it will drop as a weapon...

    ...now I'm getting a headache.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:21 pm 
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    Dr Pepper wrote:
    RusVal wrote:
    Line up as many archers as you can, and have them fire all their arrows


    <Peeve> Archers do not *fire* their arrows, they *loose* them </Peeve>


    "Shoot" is also acceptable.

    Quote:
    I shot an arrow into the air,
    It fell to earth, I knew not where;
    For, so swiftly it flew, the sight
    Could not follow it in its flight.

    "The Arrow and The Song" H W Longfellow

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:31 pm 
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    Zeal wrote:
    Interesting.

    I wonder if the arrows stuck in a hex boundary continue their on flight at the start of your turn or just drop to the ground.



    They drop. At the bridge the Jetstone arrows stopped in the hex boundary and fell in the river, then floated down stream.

    raphfrk wrote:
    Anyone else think the cross bow bolt looks like a missile :)? My initial reaction was Parson was going to bring rocketry to Erfworld and was thinking it was a pretty big spoiler :).


    Arrows, bolts, most rockets, sling bullets and frisbees are all types of missiles.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:46 pm 
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    Regarding some wondering about Parson using the 'books again, it is my thought that these are real books, made of twoll-wrought parchment.

    Discussion with Charlie -- Turns since TBfGK: 54

    After all, Parson is panicked at first about Charlie seeing all his notes (Book 1, page 100). I don't believe he would open that hole (minus some possible creative misinformation) when he has parchment available.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:20 am 
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    Really nice update! =)

    What I wish for is a Klog with a more indepth explanation to the Kingworld spell.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:41 am 
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    splintermute wrote:
    Something interesting I noted - according to this klog, city upgrading (even if done by a dirtamancer), golem creation and uncroaking (and also, presumably, decrypting), despite requiring expenditure of juice, are not considered "spells."

    I also found this interesting.

    I'm guessing that you don't need spells to create things like uncroaked units, but spells can be used to create them. The same probably goes for golems, magic items, and scrolls.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:02 am 
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    Sixty wrote:
    splintermute wrote:
    Sixty wrote:
    So they can counter attack with dwagon breath attacks across the border if attacked then? I wonder if they have to be hit for it to count as being attacked or just having an enemy arrow/other projectile enter their hex.

    No, he specifically said breath attacks are blocked at the hex/zone border, presumably regardless of whether they're being attacked. The only attacks that can cross borders are on-turn archers and city ballistic weapons (and zombie-canos!).


    It says, "But when its not their turn they can only shoot enemy units in the same hex... ...or as defense when your city is being attacked"

    So theoretically if you were defending a city and on your enemy's turn you were attacked you COULD fire back across the hex boundary if your city was being attacked. I was wondering what exactly considered being attacked that would allow the defenders to fire back.


    In this case, it's a moot point, since Wanda and Co are in an enemy City Zone as attackers. The phrasing of "a zone of a city you control" is specific. Wanda is in an enemy city, which she does not yet control. I think for what is exactly considered being attacked, you answered your own question: if it's a city you control and someone attacks you, you can fire across city zones that you control.

    Since neither applies to Wanda in this case, she's SoL on that front.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:51 am 
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    pSycHOtic chICkeN wrote:
    Arrows, bolts, most rockets, sling bullets and frisbees are all types of missiles.


    Well, I meant rocket missile then. Actually, the bolt does seem a little larger than a crossbow bolt should be. Maybe it is closer to the camera than the person that fired it.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:01 am 
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    Dr Pepper wrote:
    <Peeve> Archers do not *fire* their arrows, they *loose* them </Peeve>

    Be careful though, that the archers don't lose their arrows. :lol:

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     Post Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:48 am 
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    Dr Pepper wrote:
    RusVal wrote:
    Line up as many archers as you can, and have them fire all their arrows


    <Peeve> Archers do not *fire* their arrows, they *loose* them </Peeve>



    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fire

    Spoiler: show
    28.
    to project (a bullet or the like) by or as if by discharging from a gun.

    30.
    to hurl; throw: to fire a stone through a window.

    15.
    the discharge of firearms: enemy fire.

    16.
    the effect of firing military weapons: to pour fire upon the enemy.

    39.
    to hurl a projectile.


    It works. You can fire arrows. You can take fire from enemy archers. You can provide suppressing fire with slings.

    Completely unsupported by research: the terms may have first coincided with flaming arrows, and orders to "fire" the enemy villages. It might have been than "firing" arrows was already the term before firearms were invented.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:03 am 
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    Lor wrote:
    Regarding some wondering about Parson using the 'books again, it is my thought that these are real books, made of twoll-wrought parchment.

    Discussion with Charlie -- Turns since TBfGK: 54

    After all, Parson is panicked at first about Charlie seeing all his notes (Book 1, page 100). I don't believe he would open that hole (minus some possible creative misinformation) when he has parchment available.

    Possibly -- the book looks different (gold corners) than the eyebook as seen in Book 1.

    EDIT: OTOH, we see an image of the page, and it's clearly printing rather than handwriting. Also, the only possibly sensitive fact revealed is "Parson is still trying to figure out Erfworld mechanics, specifically how they relate to his options now that his side is off-turn".

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     Post Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:10 am 
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    SteveMB wrote:
    EDIT: OTOH, we see an image of the page, and it's clearly printing rather than handwriting. Also, the only possibly sensitive fact revealed is "Parson is still trying to figure out Erfworld mechanics, specifically how they relate to his options now that his side is off-turn".

    The title of this Klog suggests that it was written several turns ago, during his simulations with Jack. The experiment with the arrow probably took place at some point in the past as well - I doubt Parson would be running out of the war room right now just to see an arrow freezing in mid-air, when he has more pressing concerns.

    Also, I think the only previous example we've seen of a note that's presumably handwritten is book 1, page 10, panel 8, and it looks like fairly neat printing, although there's some irregularity in the shape of the letters (but it's similar to the standard font used in early Book 1). Maybe you can't actually handwrite in Erf, and whatever illegible scrawl you put down automatically comes out as neat printing.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:20 am 
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    splintermute wrote:
    SteveMB wrote:
    EDIT: OTOH, we see an image of the page, and it's clearly printing rather than handwriting. Also, the only possibly sensitive fact revealed is "Parson is still trying to figure out Erfworld mechanics, specifically how they relate to his options now that his side is off-turn".

    The title of this Klog suggests that it was written several turns ago, during his simulations with Jack. The experiment with the arrow probably took place at some point in the past as well - I doubt Parson would be running out of the war room right now just to see an arrow freezing in mid-air, when he has more pressing concerns.

    Also, I think the only previous example we've seen of a note that's presumably handwritten is book 1, page 10, panel 8, and it looks like fairly neat printing, although there's some irregularity in the shape of the letters (but it's similar to the standard font used in early Book 1). Maybe you can't actually handwrite in Erf, and whatever illegible scrawl you put down automatically comes out as neat printing.


    I beg to differ, for two main reasons.

    Firstly, the last thing we saw was that Parson wanted to contact Jack. This means he wanted to speak to Jack directly. It would be imperative to know what actions he can take while their turn is still out so he can prepare for whatever shrewd move he's about to pull. I can definitely see him picking Jack's brain over this.

    Secondly, remember, time works differently in Erfworld. Parson can effectively do whatever he wants in his hex, and it'll never affect the time passing in Wanda's hex, not changing what's happening there. Therefore, Parson had plenty of time to run out and see the arrow trick for himself.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:01 am 
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    I find it interesting that conversion of gems to schmuckers and the upgrading of troops is possible out of turn.

    Are there any units in Wanda's group that are not upgraded yet? Then it seems that they could be.

    Are there any hobgoblins? Don't they use schmuckers to replicate themselves?

    If I recall correctly, money just disappears from the treasury when it is used right? So distance might not matter. Even if distance is a factor, what if Jack is carrying gems around for such an emergency (contingency plan from previous conversations with Parson), which he can then convert to schmuckers on the spot?

    Normal troops can only be produced in cities, but allied tribes produce troops whenever they're given money (and I don't think it was ever specified that they can only do so in cities, otherwise wild tribes cannot reproduce).

    So what if they use money to spontaneously create more hobgoblins? Use more money to instantly upgrade them to knight status. They can't fly, so they fall to their deaths. Wanda uncroaks them. Instant army on the ground to fight archers.

    The other interesting thing that was mentioned was the creation of items. Does it take caster juice or money to create items? Yet another thing to exploit if it only takes money. Wanda can proficiently cast spells from other disciplines. I can imagine several dozen more foolamancy spells would be handy.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:18 am 
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    cdrcjsn wrote:
    Are there any hobgoblins? Don't they use schmuckers to replicate themselves?


    And I just found http://www.erfworld.com/page/31/, which answers the question. There is indeed a hobgoblin knight in Wanda's group.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:53 am 
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    cdrcjsn wrote:
    Normal troops can only be produced in cities, but allied tribes produce troops whenever they're given money (and I don't think it was ever specified that they can only do so in cities, otherwise wild tribes cannot reproduce).

    So what if they use money to spontaneously create more hobgoblins? Use more money to instantly upgrade them to knight status. They can't fly, so they fall to their deaths. Wanda uncroaks them. Instant army on the ground to fight archers.


    I believe that if that was possible someone would've done so already on the comic. Instant frontline reinforcing is pretty powerfull but we've yet to see anyone use it.

    And I don't believe wild tribes reproduce themselves with money when not controled. Just like dwagons and other wild creatures, they must pop at random every turn. They only need money for their upkeep.

    It's a common thing in a lots of games. "Neutral" factions literally pop out of nowhere, but when you recruit them they lose their auto-spawn ability and you must spend money to get more of them.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:27 am 
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    I am so loving this chain of speculation.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 11:52 am 
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    oslecamo2 wrote:
    I believe that if that was possible someone would've done so already on the comic. Instant frontline reinforcing is pretty powerfull but we've yet to see anyone use it.


    Well, this sorta falls along the lines of selectively attacking siege targets in a stack and retreating. It's a good tactic, but prior to Parson, it wasn't done.

    We've been told that casters are not often used in armies on the field. They're preferred to be kept in capitals and cities because they're so rare.

    That means casters carrying gems to convert to shmuckers in the field is not a very likely tactic.

    Another reason it's not normally done might be the fact that sides prefer their own troops to allied tribes. Or it might be cheaper to pop normal troops in cities and pay their upkeep than giving money to tribes for them to pop more men and paying for their upkeep.

    Or it might be the fact that prior to this, most sides didn't have a million gems/schmuckers to make this scheme work. After all, if you're constantly at war, it's hard to build up a treasury.

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