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 Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:21 am 
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Ooh, fascinating update.

Rob, I have to say - as you noted in your "retconjuration" post, keeping everything consistent playing within the rules, especially in a web comic, has got to be really difficult on a writer. I know there's the Wiki, and maps, and tons of analyzing in the forums. Yet everything seems really consistent and believable, with no obvious plot holes so far. My hat goes off to you sir.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:39 am 
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    So, archers CAN fire across hex boundaries, on their turn. As can City-class siege (presumably mounted on the walls).

    The immediate point that comes to mind is attacking a City has certain 'rules'. That is- don't do what Ansom did- end turn right next to the walls. Ansom got away with it because GK had very limited archery support, but free hits off your turn from those archers and City siege would be painful and pointless.

    Limited ammunition becomes critical. If you can huddle behind shields and decent armor, or I guess in Erfworld terms stack enough defensive bonuses, you can weather the storm of arrows by cycling wounded troops back out of range or behind 100% cover, then heal on your turn and cream the archers in the neighboring hex unless they flee like bunnies before your wrath gets there. So, overpowered? No. In fact, if your ammunition only repops at turn start like everything else, you might strongly consider NOT firing off turn to save your shots for a direct engagement, where the enemy can't pull the stunt I just outlined and actual losses can accrue to them.

    That is, unless you have archers with high leadership bonuses and a dittomancer to double or more their shots. At which point firing off turn makes more sense ;). Wanda is definitely in a world of hurt.

    As an aside, if you, say, have a catapult and are out of ammo for the day, would any handy (I dont know, pick something random) cow be a viable missile weapon? Parson commented on picking up a brick and tossing it. Can you scavenge 'ammo' in limited or creative ways from a hex?

    I choose to believe that the limited exception of movement for Turnamancy comment leads credence to my theory that the King World spell only refreshed movement points, not a full turn refresh. Which would make King World significantly less powerful.

    As to things freezing at the hex boundary, we know that notes can be passed hex to hex, off turn. So it may be that the hex boundary just sets the kinetic energy to zero, but then you could tug the arrow (or note) through to the other side if you felt like it. Careful doing that with things that have serious /potential/ energy. Like a big rock sitting on the 'roof' of a city zone above your archers. Or dragon corpse.

    Which brings up how 'tall' the roof is. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem very tall at all- Jillian when talking to the King was pretty near to the floor without crossing the boundary. So laying corpses (battlecrap, bubblegum) on the city zone and then pushing it gently through might not work out pure awesome, but still has potential.


    Hrm... pretty long, need to drink less coffee :) I'll cut it off here.

    Enthar

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:48 am 
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    enthar wrote:
    I choose to believe that the limited exception of movement for Turnamancy comment leads credence to my theory that the King World spell only refreshed movement points, not a full turn refresh. Which would make King World significantly less powerful.

    It didn't just refresh movement points, it set GK's move to 0, making it much more powerful than you're thinking.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:17 pm 
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    I think I would have second thoughts about the Titan's glorious plans for me if they called for covering myself in bubblegum and sharing a cramped battlecrap foxhole.

    It's raining men eh? Sounds like gravity and bodies are going to play a major role after all.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:18 pm 
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    splintermute wrote:
    enthar wrote:
    I choose to believe that the limited exception of movement for Turnamancy comment leads credence to my theory that the King World spell only refreshed movement points, not a full turn refresh. Which would make King World significantly less powerful.

    It didn't just refresh movement points, it set GK's move to 0, making it much more powerful than you're thinking.


    Also de-gummed Trammenis.

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    Last edited by effataigus on Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:31 am, edited 239044 times in total.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:40 pm 
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    Balance wrote:
    As to things freezing at the hex boundary, we know that notes can be passed hex to hex, off turn. So it may be that the hex boundary just sets the kinetic energy to zero, but then you could tug the arrow (or note) through to the other side if you felt like it. Careful doing that with things that have serious /potential/ energy. Like a big rock sitting on the 'roof' of a city zone above your archers. Or dragon corpse.


    Maybe it isn't a KE thing exactly. It might be possible to pull things that are at the zone boundary, but not push them through.

    This would also cover mounts. They pull their riders through the boundary.

    Passing a note works because the person at the other side wants it to cross. This would allow Jetstone troops to pull corpses into their side. However, they would need to climb up to do up, so they might not be able to reach the boundary.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:51 pm 
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    Oh, he's just toying with us now. :)

    But this might support my earlier assertion about purposefully falling through to the courtyard. (Or tower?) I mean, "It's raining men?"

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:58 pm 
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    splintermute wrote:
    enthar wrote:
    I choose to believe that the limited exception of movement for Turnamancy comment leads credence to my theory that the King World spell only refreshed movement points, not a full turn refresh. Which would make King World significantly less powerful.

    It didn't just refresh movement points, it set GK's move to 0, making it much more powerful than you're thinking.


    Well, setting opposing move to 0 is just part of the deal. What bothered me is if you heal, get new ammunition, new 'juice' for casters, and all the other effects of a brand new turn. Don't get me wrong, simply inverting the movement points is bad enough. But if the costs and setup are high enough and hard enough, it helps to 'balance' it, if such a term has meaning.

    Minimum two-caster linkup, standing in the tower (for spell bonus effect) of a city under attack, which only gives your side move and the opposing side 0 move. If GK had tried that during the siege, it would have been powerful yes, but might not have actually changed the outcome. It would only have been viable during the final assault phase (no saving the dragon donut of doom for example), Parson would still be faced with the hard choice of saving Wanda's air power or using it to attack siege (due to Archons in his battlespace). In fact, the only real difference it might have made would be to get that armored blue popped (perhaps), get Stanely past the blockade (iffy), or allow a purely infantry based sortie once the tunnels had been cleared.

    Eh, all told KingWorld is nasty enough. I am just looking for further limits on it to mitigate that nastiness.

    Enthar

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:04 pm 
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    raphfrk wrote:
    Maybe it isn't a KE thing exactly. It might be possible to pull things that are at the zone boundary, but not push them through.

    This would also cover mounts. They pull their riders through the boundary.

    Passing a note works because the person at the other side wants it to cross. This would allow Jetstone troops to pull corpses into their side. However, they would need to climb up to do up, so they might not be able to reach the boundary.


    Yeah, it might be a function of the destination hex, not the origination hex, which would eliminate any possibility of hostile acts through hex boundaries off turn. Which, from a 'game' perspective, is probably a good thing. It would also limit Parson's nasty ideas to purely defensive ones like BLAND's gum/crap wall/armor.

    That said, our dear Foolamancer was concerned about the corpses falling out of Wanda's reach, which suggests to me that they can fall or sink through the hex boundary without enemy or ally aid. That they may just 'stop', then plop down 10 feet, would significantly reduce their threat as weapons against ground based targets.

    Enthar

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:05 pm 
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    This explains why Ansom kept his distance from the hex border during Sammy's attack.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:23 pm 
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    Parson thinking=bad news for somebody.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:53 pm 
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    As far as we know Charlie has only hacked in to communicate with Parsons.
    We don't know yet if he hacked communications so he can spy on GK.
    Parson is just being careful in case Charlie has.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:59 pm 
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    Thank you, thank you, Rob, for putting to bed the whole "you can't do anything off turn" argument. Also, I love the "raining men" hint. Leads me to believe there is a way past the city zone boundary, even off turn. I say order Ossomer to jump off his mount, while yelling the battle cry "Geronimo." Y'know, for science.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:00 pm 
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    Well, that kills a few wild mass guesses.

    Also: yay, Erfworld's back.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:07 pm 
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    Yay it's back
    So a few points have been cleared up. Ranged weapons cannot pass through hex or zone boundaries off-turn.
    This raises the possibility of creating a barrier of blow pop, battlecrap, arrows, whatever, to block the JS attack.

    What is NOT answered is whether croaked bodies will fall through - the title suggests they may.

    This would mean that physics in Erfworld is intention-dependent. If you shoot at someone off-turn then the projectile will be blocked, but if you drop something with no malicious intent then it will fall to the ground.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:40 pm 
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    effataigus wrote:
    I think I would have second thoughts about the Titan's glorious plans for me if they called for covering myself in bubblegum and sharing a cramped battlecrap foxhole.


    Eh. Wanda needs some character development anyway.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:52 pm 
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    Something interesting I noted - according to this klog, city upgrading (even if done by a dirtamancer), golem creation and uncroaking (and also, presumably, decrypting), despite requiring expenditure of juice, are not considered "spells."

    What is and isn't a "spell"? My theory is that a spell is a magical effect that can affect someone or something that's not part of your side - hence thinkagrams (communicating with another side), lookamancy (spying on another side), and presumably foolamancy (altering the perceptions of another side), shockamancy (incapacitating another side), some turnamancy (ending another side's turn; turning an enemy unit), etc. are "spells." This raises the possibility that there are some magical disciplines that involve juice expenditure, but don't actually provide their casters with "spells." Croakamancy and healomancy come to mind.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:28 pm 
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    Something odd is going on this discussion. LIAB9 shows the arrows "freezing" in mid air but the next relevant picture shows that the arrows must have dropped to the ground. Yet everyone is interpreting this klog as meaning that arrows at a hex boundary hang around mid air until the end of the round. That is not how I interpreted it.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:31 pm 
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    gazes_also wrote:
    Yay it's back
    So a few points have been cleared up. Ranged weapons cannot pass through hex or zone boundaries off-turn.
    This raises the possibility of creating a barrier of blow pop, battlecrap, arrows, whatever, to block the JS attack.

    What is NOT answered is whether croaked bodies will fall through - the title suggests they may.

    This would mean that physics in Erfworld is intention-dependent. If you shoot at someone off-turn then the projectile will be blocked, but if you drop something with no malicious intent then it will fall to the ground.


    It's implied by Jack's thoughts in text updates 21:

    «This cost no move, but its only effect was to determine which archers could hit them. And on whose heads their corpses would fall, Jack supposed.»

    They can probably remove stacks of archers by dropping dwagons on them (wait until they are low in hitpoints and kill them yourself). The big problem are tower defenses, it would be strange if they couldn't burst through bubblegum easily.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:18 pm 
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    splintermute wrote:
    Sixty wrote:
    So they can counter attack with dwagon breath attacks across the border if attacked then? I wonder if they have to be hit for it to count as being attacked or just having an enemy arrow/other projectile enter their hex.

    No, he specifically said breath attacks are blocked at the hex/zone border, presumably regardless of whether they're being attacked. The only attacks that can cross borders are on-turn archers and city ballistic weapons (and zombie-canos!).


    It says, "But when its not their turn they can only shoot enemy units in the same hex... ...or as defense when your city is being attacked"

    So theoretically if you were defending a city and on your enemy's turn you were attacked you COULD fire back across the hex boundary if your city was being attacked. I was wondering what exactly considered being attacked that would allow the defenders to fire back.

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