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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 304
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:07 pm 
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Holms wrote:
I think you have overlooked one simple (and highly likely) possibility: Bill turned of his own volition, and this can occur at any time.

Pull the other one.

We know from Bill's own POV that he is terrified of disappointing Caesar. On his way to the meeting he wouldn't so much as stop to talk to Charlie, for fear that he'd be disbanded for being late. We also know he has no interest in authority or command. All he wants is to be able to make his dolls.

This is not a guy who spontaneously decides to turn traitor and have a physical confrontation with his ruler.

Furthermore, you want to claim that this change is entirely of his own volition, and just happened to occur a few seconds after he got off a call with Charlie, who beamed the conversation into his head with a powerful mind-affecting artifact? That would be the most enormously contrived coincidence in the history of storytelling.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 304
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:52 am 
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    ...It has bells on?

    You said it yourself: Bill's primary motivation is to make his dolls. Specifically, 'real dolls' because he is throughly creepy that way. This is a long-known part of his character, and Charlie capitalised on it: "Arkendish can make real dolls." Whether that statement of his is true or not is irrelevant - we know that people can lie over thinkamancy - Charlie offered Bill his dream come true.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 304
     Post Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:51 pm 
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    Holms wrote:
    Charlie offered Bill his dream come true.

    Yes, that would be my point. Bill was convinced by Charlie, who offered him an irresistible reward for Turning.

    That's kind of the opposite of "his own volition."

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 304
     Post Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:57 am 
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    auraseer wrote:
    Holms wrote:
    Charlie offered Bill his dream come true.

    Yes, that would be my point. Bill was convinced by Charlie, who offered him an irresistible reward for Turning.

    That's kind of the opposite of "his own volition."

    I'm not seeing any coersion in "I will give you what you want if you turn." He doesn't even have to be telling the truth for that to work, Bill is not wary at the best of times and especially not after a Turnamancer confused him.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 304
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:01 pm 
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    RocketSeraph wrote:
    Really, Stanley's every bit as hatable as Charlie, but he's sympathetic all the same. Morally, the primary difference between the two is that Charlie is the antagonist of our story, and Stanley's helping out Parson. Which when it comes to morals, "it's okay cause he's on our side" doesn't hold much weight to me.


    Yea, see my sig:

    Anteros wrote:
    It's just that most of the "good" characters have been antagonists because our protagonists are terrible awful people with almost no redeeming qualities.

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