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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 283
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:03 pm 
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David Hunt wrote:
Okay, I think I've got this quote attributed to the correct person. Apologies if it isn't.
Nah, that was me. No worries, though!

David Hunt wrote:
This is an interesting bit of reasoning, but I don't think it matters at all. The analysis of the spell that Charlie provided under Contract specifies that what the scroll really does is stop the Summon Perfect Warlord spell from working. Granted that this is Charlie but he was under Contract and I don't see any benefit in him lying about that and violating the agreement would cause him problems. The summoning is supposedly all that is keeping universal forces from pulling Parson back to Ohio. The GTFO scroll is mostly Weirdomancy that stops it from doing that, allowing this to happen and the Carniemancy is just a minor cheat to allow a non-caster to use it. Under those conditions, I don't think Parson's idea of where Home is matters. It doesn't send him home. It disrupts the summoning spell. As long as the summoning works the way that we've been led to believe, I don't see how Parson's idea of Home has anything to do with it.

As I argued with Manacaster, the analysis we were given says, specifically, "[...] that Parson's being pulled here had created a form of psychocosmic tension between where he was and where he belonged, like a drawn bowstring. The Weirdomancy in the spell would unravel the bits of magic that held him to Erfworld, and the natural tension would sling him back to Earth."

My argument is that with enough strong relationships, it wouldn't be the spell keeping Parson in Erfworld anymore; he wouldn't be a tourist, he's be an immigrant. The GTFO scroll relies Parson being an outsider to kick him back outside, and by having stronger ties to Erfworld than Stupidworld there wouldn't be the tension on the psychocosmic strings.

As Janis put it "I believe that you can fall in love in Erfworld, and I know that others can fall for you. When that happens, a magical bond forms between you and another unit. You will be entangled with that unit on a fundamental level, one that a Date-a-mancer can easily see."

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 283
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:17 pm 
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    No one in particular wrote:
    David Hunt wrote:
    Okay, I think I've got this quote attributed to the correct person. Apologies if it isn't.
    Nah, that was me. No worries, though!

    David Hunt wrote:
    This is an interesting bit of reasoning, but I don't think it matters at all. The analysis of the spell that Charlie provided under Contract specifies that what the scroll really does is stop the Summon Perfect Warlord spell from working. Granted that this is Charlie but he was under Contract and I don't see any benefit in him lying about that and violating the agreement would cause him problems. The summoning is supposedly all that is keeping universal forces from pulling Parson back to Ohio. The GTFO scroll is mostly Weirdomancy that stops it from doing that, allowing this to happen and the Carniemancy is just a minor cheat to allow a non-caster to use it. Under those conditions, I don't think Parson's idea of where Home is matters. It doesn't send him home. It disrupts the summoning spell. As long as the summoning works the way that we've been led to believe, I don't see how Parson's idea of Home has anything to do with it.

    As I argued with Manacaster, the analysis we were given says, specifically, "[...] that Parson's being pulled here had created a form of psychocosmic tension between where he was and where he belonged, like a drawn bowstring. The Weirdomancy in the spell would unravel the bits of magic that held him to Erfworld, and the natural tension would sling him back to Earth."

    My argument is that with enough strong relationships, it wouldn't be the spell keeping Parson in Erfworld anymore; he wouldn't be a tourist, he's be an immigrant. The GTFO scroll relies Parson being an outsider to kick him back outside, and by having stronger ties to Erfworld than Stupidworld there wouldn't be the tension on the psychocosmic strings.

    As Janis put it "I believe that you can fall in love in Erfworld, and I know that others can fall for you. When that happens, a magical bond forms between you and another unit. You will be entangled with that unit on a fundamental level, one that a Date-a-mancer can easily see."


    Sorry about the misquote anyway.

    Yeah, that's the basic route that I'd take if wanted to argue that the scroll wouldn't move him. Basically, that the Date-a-mantic connections that he's made are a natural magic that can counteract the tension the that's trying to pull him back to Ohio. I even thought of bringing it up. I just don't think that's going to happen, or that at least not enough to keep him here if the scroll is used. It would be interesting to see that though. To my knowledge, it's still understanding that the summoning spell places some compulsions/restrictions on Parson's actions/thinking. It would be interesting to see what would happen without that.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 283
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:38 pm 
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    Another point that I just realized might play into my argument: for Parson to use the Scroll, Parson has to want to use it. Parson's feelings do affect whether the scroll works; if Parson wants to stay in Erfworld, a carny has to use the Scroll and, well, that's cheating. (b3 p266 - since this is between Roger and Vanna who WANT Parson gone, they're not gonna lie to each other)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 283
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:02 pm 
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    Sir Dr D wrote:
    Caprice wrote:
    Polvane the eraser wrote:
    Roger's plan is dumb because who is going to unravel the State 3 he proposes?

    What does he care? Roger's on a suicide mission here. Plan A is to send Parson home, and plan B is to try really hard to spawn some sort of angry ghost as he croaks.


    Yeah, but the problem would be Maggie would know. If their is no plan in to unravel the State 3, it would advertise to Maggie it is a suicide mission.

    And most of the time, Maggie always needed someone else to unravel her state 3. But as a question, how did it get unravelled after the battle for portal park (the one with Maggie ,Jack and Marie)


    I think it unraveled when they (Maggie, Jack, and Marie) all fainted. Basically they all suffered Incapacitation when they ran out of juice.

    Also: Not just Maggie would know. Parson would know. Parson does know. He held Misty's corpse in his arms after Maggie cut the link.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 283
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:15 pm 
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    No one in particular wrote:
    My argument is that with enough strong relationships, it wouldn't be the spell keeping Parson in Erfworld anymore; he wouldn't be a tourist, he's be an immigrant. The GTFO scroll relies Parson being an outsider to kick him back outside, and by having stronger ties to Erfworld than Stupidworld there wouldn't be the tension on the psychocosmic strings.

    Conversely, if Parson wanted to return to Earth desperately badly, he wouldn't even need the scroll to return home. The psychocosmic tension generated by his wish would probably snap the spell on its own.

    Polvane the eraser wrote:
    I think it unraveled when they (Maggie, Jack, and Marie) all fainted. Basically they all suffered Incapacitation when they ran out of juice.

    Also: Not just Maggie would know. Parson would know. Parson does know. He held Misty's corpse in his arms after Maggie cut the link.

    Maggie is still an adept, Roger is a master-class. We don't know for sure whether master-class Thinkamancers need help unraveling.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 283
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:49 pm 
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    ManaCaster wrote:
    Conversely, if Parson wanted to return to Earth desperately badly, he wouldn't even need the scroll to return home. The psychocosmic tension generated by his wish would probably snap the spell on its own.

    Ooh, that brings up a tidbit from way back in the beginning...
    In Book 1, p17, Stanley wrote:
    And I know the spell will bind him to serve me, but I don't want a morale case. Get me somebody who actually wants to be summoned.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 283
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:13 pm 
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    Sir Dr D wrote:
    Based on the wording of the source text, I believe you are right. And based on the analysis from two updates ago Jojo and Varius might have been talking in code. Which means Varius could have been the weirdamancer in that linkup. And now I am wondering what Varius really stepped away from the group to do.

    ____
    Wait never mind. Roger had no idea about the scroll until Jojo recently told him about it.


    Yeah Varius is the only Weirdomancer we know, that part makes sense. It would be safer for Charlie if Jojo was the Carniemancer who participated, so it probably was.

    Roger could have kept the knowledge in his secret garden, he really didn't remember things until it was unlocked. But it could have been Charlie, remotely.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 283
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:51 pm 
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    ManaCaster wrote:
    No one in particular wrote:
    My argument is that with enough strong relationships, it wouldn't be the spell keeping Parson in Erfworld anymore; he wouldn't be a tourist, he's be an immigrant. The GTFO scroll relies Parson being an outsider to kick him back outside, and by having stronger ties to Erfworld than Stupidworld there wouldn't be the tension on the psychocosmic strings.

    Conversely, if Parson wanted to return to Earth desperately badly, he wouldn't even need the scroll to return home. The psychocosmic tension generated by his wish would probably snap the spell on its own.


    I never noticed the wording before, but does anyone else find it strange that the tension is "psychocosmic"? I assume the cosmic part to be a reference to Parson being from another universe, but specifying psycho seems odd. How is the tension more that of the mind than that of matter? Is Erfworld like the Matrix in that everything is essentially made up by your mind? Parson has disappeared from earth so it can't just be that his mind was summoned. Perhaps it is the readers suspension of disbelief? :P

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 283
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:07 pm 
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    Polvane the eraser wrote:
    I think it unraveled when they (Maggie, Jack, and Marie) all fainted. Basically they all suffered Incapacitation when they ran out of juice.


    But if it unraveled when they all fainted, wouldn't that have put Jack back into Trauma mode again? Or did Maggie deliberately receive most of the backlash herself this time?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 283
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:35 pm 
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    Sir Dr D wrote:
    Polvane the eraser wrote:
    I think it unraveled when they (Maggie, Jack, and Marie) all fainted. Basically they all suffered Incapacitation when they ran out of juice.


    But if it unraveled when they all fainted, wouldn't that have put Jack back into Trauma mode again? Or did Maggie deliberately receive most of the backlash herself this time?


    I see incapacitation similarly to how I see falling (natural shockmancy), it comes in different levels of penalties and damage to the one(s) receiving it.

    Maggie got incapacitated from a broken link with wanda and seemed fine enough to form a link within an hour. Then she underwent another link severing (from low juice). Jack fainted but Marie, though apparently incapacitated, was conscious enough to give Parson a kind of farewell before croaking proper from free-caster haboken.

    Unless I missed something along the way there.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 283
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:15 pm 
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    I think linking from a narrative perspective is just less deadly now.

    To be honest I think it needs to be in Book 1 we get a really bad experience with linking to distract us from its utility and usefulness. We understand that linking gave GK a huge advantage but it also led to the death of one of their key assets so we understand why Parson isn't immediately trying to throw his other casters together in a link. Thus when the big reveal comes of uncroaking the volcano it is not only more surprising as we have been directed away from it as an option but it also brings with it a degree of gravitas due to our perception of how dangerous it can be.

    In the latter books we want to see people experiment and do crazy things so their needs to be less cost to it for the narrative to flow. I mean an in-story reason may simply be the characters are just stronger, better and more powerful magically so it carries less risk. Along with the introduction of the GMTTA to support breaking links but during the battle for portal park that link dissipated with minimal affect on the people within it despite the casters arguably being under a lot of strain.

    I take from it while linking still has that lurking danger the recent events of mind-melds and broken links without much repercussion; I think it is safe to say the narrative has moved on from links being super deadly dangerous and I am not sure that is a bad thing.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 283
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:05 pm 
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    Read 5 pages, sleep meds are kicking in, can't go any more. Here's what I had so far.

    Rob, since no one has mentioned it yet: "worked well in theory", not "worked good in theory", unless you're intentionally mimicking Caesar's speech pattern. Considering his dialect he might say that.

    Mecharic wrote:
    Keep in mind, he has no reason to suspect Roger. No reason to think that one of the GMs would betray him so long as Charlie exists.


    He does have one reasont to, he just hasn't keyed into it yet: RVC's signamancy. The guy he's modeled after is most famous for (allegedly) putting his pubes on some woman's (or more than one woman's) soda can. Not exactly the nicest guy. Parson might realize at the very last second he's let something disgusting get way too close to him.

    Overdroid wrote:
    Also I don't really understand why, having the bracer, you wouldn't ask "What are the odds this person is planning to betray me" every time someone suggested something a little suspicious.


    At the very least, Parson should ask Ben to ask the bracer the odds of this plan to carny the carny spell working.

    Madhattan wrote:
    BTW nice Game of Thrones reference with the pillar of (many) faces to the left


    Nice catch!

    WooSai wrote:
    I for some reason believe that he has to want to go home for the scroll to work as intended. Fate may very well allow this audible, and make it work the way that RVC says it does, just to *boop* with RVC...


    Also forgetting that "home" might just mean GK. Having him pop over there would open up new doors.

    Free Radical wrote:
    It's a scroll. The entire point of it is to be able to cast a spell later without using juice. Maggie is standing right there, and I don't think Roger mentioned anything that would prevent her from being the one to cast it instead of Parson.


    Good point. I expect Parson and/or Maggie will think of this and that Rob has some rebuttal planned. But if not then having Maggie in that link up might be interesting, as it'll mean Vanna will need to try and turn Maggie to casting it on Parson instead of the portal ... and that turning probably won't work due to Maggie's love for Parson.


    Last edited by Fla_Panther on Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 283
     Post Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:06 pm 
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    The link with Misty in book 1 was extremely long-lasting, to the point where the casters had lost their identities, or their memories of individual life. It was not the typical case.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 283
     Post Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:32 am 
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    Sir Dr D wrote:
    Wait never mind. Roger had no idea about the scroll until Jojo recently told him about it.
    That's not actually as strong an objection as the danger to Roger's cover, since it is easily possible that Roger could have been Carnied to forget about doing the scroll before.

    On the subject of psychocosmic tension and whatnot, a bowstring doesn't just return to it's 'rest position' when released, nor does any elastic system pulled away from the equilibrium point. What you get is harmonic motion until the excess energy put into the system to distort it is dissipated somehow. This is a completely novel spell Charlie has put together, does he (or the GMTTA) really have a proper understanding of what it might actually do in practice?

    Just to throw another stone on which to build some wild speculations.
    CDS wrote:
    I think it is safe to say the narrative has moved on from links being super deadly dangerous and I am not sure that is a bad thing.
    Well, it was always known that there were proper and improper ways to dissolve a link, that's information we got back when they were being introduced. And we've seen various degrees of damage resulting from breaking a link, including a two state that incapacitated Maggie. Still, the question of how to undo this link safely is going to loom large in Parson's mind, even more as he's going to be in this link.

    I suspect the answer is going to be "let's wait till we know nothing else is working". After all, Parson currently doesn't know what the exact holdup is with getting Wanda etc. back to Spacerock, but he has no real reason to even suspect the degree of complications they've encountered. And yet, back on their way they are.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 283
     Post Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:25 am 
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    Ozamataz Buckshank wrote:
    DukeBG wrote:
    The same mistake with the number of gems as was on pg. 272. :( I've emailed Rob/Linda about it.

    What's the mistake, exactly?

    Concerns in regards to page 272:

    1. Paragraph 8, starts with "Caesar was studying him in silence." It says that there are 30 million Shmuckers on the table. On page 242 we learned that GK treasury was 29,974,905 Shmuckers *before* Claud made a violation and violation cost 5M (so Parson's plan wasn't in place yet). So, when Parson's gem plan is being implemented, the treasury is only 24,974,905 Shmuckers. It shouldn't be described as 30M.

    2. Two paragraphs down, starting with "But...fully commit or eat shit". Parson's talking about "technically emptying the treasury". In order to only have minimum violation costs (500K) the treasury needs to be 1M or less – then 500K will be more that the half of it. Also, including that the gems were made in 500K values, it's unlikely they made a 474,905 gem. So, most logically it would be to only convert 24 million Shmuckers into gems and have 974,905 Shmuckers left in the treasury. It's far from emptying, it's a much bigger value than an average side has.

    And now page 283 has that "30M" again. Should only be 24M (48 500K-gems) or maybe 24.5 (49; although it doesn't make sense to do this, it's enough for the treas to be below 1M to have min violation costs).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 283
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:50 am 
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    The linkup in Portal Park could have simply been undone by the Great Minds, no?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 283
     Post Posted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:38 pm 
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    If Parson were to return to Earth, probably the biggest culture shock is finding out how successful Hamstard has grown in his absence.

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