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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:23 pm 
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If the doll was Issac the remaining GMs would have no reason to ride off. Their goal is still to take down Charlie regardless of Issac's contribution.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:01 pm 
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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    EDIT: Ok... yeah... I'm mother fucking triggered. I'll be back when the new page is up. Or not... if I'm banned before then.


    But you're not wrong.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:26 am 
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    sheepfly wrote:
    JadedDragoon wrote:
    EDIT: Ok... yeah... I'm mother fucking triggered. I'll be back when the new page is up. Or not... if I'm banned before then.


    But you're not wrong.

    I find it ironic to see a description of someone being "triggered" in his description of his side being better example than a different side. "Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

    Game of thrones, saw reviewers wondering who the next villain would be after high sparrow and friends were killed by Cersei (which they cheered), ignoring how Cersei had caused more death and destruction on innocents than high sparrow and everything high sparrow did to Cersei, Cersei had first plotted against her daughter in law. (The religiousness decided the villain rather than the harm done)

    Sometimes whether a person or their actions is good or bad depends less on their actions and more on what "political party" they belong to. Example, in 2006 Obama spoke against raising US debt ceiling and organised his team to vote against it, saying burden on grand kids. In 2013 with debt ceiling going up at nearly twice the rate of Bush era, Tea Party did similar as Obama did before. (And by looks of things Trump will likely ring up debt even further). The people who cheered Obama in 2006 often called Tea Party evil for doing similar in 2013. The people who were critical of Micheal Moore are cheering Trump and vice versa when often same desired policies using same sort of style. (In end it looks like US may go bankrupt thanks to actions of both sides)

    Similar story in erfworld where breaking a parley is seen as bad or good depending on whether you are on side of royal coalition or GK. (Parson croaking Ansom in Book 1, compared to Queen Bea croaking her decrypted daughter) Vanna is hostile to decrypted as "puppets", when Vanna tries to be a puppetmaster herself using magic. (A grand master of her magic type is literally called Puppetmaster in erfworld)


    Last edited by multilis on Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:46 am, edited 4 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:36 am 
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    sheepfly wrote:
    JadedDragoon wrote:
    EDIT: Ok... yeah... I'm mother fucking triggered. I'll be back when the new page is up. Or not... if I'm banned before then.


    But you're not wrong.


    It is hard for me to say whether JadedDragoon is wrong or not wrong without better details. At best we are given a vague example of someone that would quickly be labeled as "not very Christian" and being told that such is "more Christian" than self proclaimed Christians.

    But I do not see that in my church. Indeed, if there was one sin that me and my fellow church members were most guilty of (that I can see) it is that we don't go out and preach and convert others enough. It isn't that we aren't faithful and don't believe, nor is it that we don't think it is important. It is because the world outside of the church scares us, we don't want to be the target of ridicule and scorn like so many groups in the world are becoming.

    And the examples of that are everywhere, heck, for every one start-up group that says "we believe this" there is another that specifically claims to believe the opposite, and BOTH sides get ridiculed and scored, making for a very strong desire to just keep our heads down and wait for the hate to blow over.

    Of course, details are necessary to truly understand, and I feel I am being just as vague as JadedDragoon was.

    Consider, JadedDragoon mentioned the "New Testiment" which seems fairly straightforward... except that the first four books all cover the same time period and no two agree perfectly. For example, the tree that Jesus cursed, did it wither within a week's time, or immediately? IIRC, there are two different descriptions thereof, though again IIRC, one of them is a little vague. Another passage (I forget where) seems to be telling the people of the church to make sure their women shut up! I was told at one point that this needed to be taken into context and that the women of that particular congregation were effectively trying to take over said congregation, but that's probably just me.

    So yeah, trigger or no trigger, there just is no saying yay or nay without more details. Just what are these churches hypocritical about? And which churches? The Jehova's Witnesses? The Catholics? The Scientologists? (I include them because... why not?!).

    Until then... there is no real saying agree or disagree.

    I also say this because there are two kinds of people who get triggered, the first is the kind that just faced something that touches them personally, something that hits a nerve that... really shouldn't have been hit: Vegeta's "Goku Button" for example. But then you have the second kind, the kind that want to be angry, they get their button triggered because they're holding it up like a shield and just WAITING for someone to take a shot, then go chasing after it shouting "I got it! I got it!" just so they can have an excuse to go off like a nuclear bomb inside of an active volcano.

    The first, I believe that they would see what I have said as a calm, "please explain this so I can understand it "request. The second would see it as a challenge to their claim, and thus see it as a form of attempting to invalidate that claim, and would become further triggered. Not that it is my intent to trigger anybody, quite the reverse, but if someone really is holding up their "trigger button" like it's a shield and then uses "triggered" as en excuse... well, there's no real way to win with someone doing that. The best response is to expose this, reveal it, and then deal with it. If you just let it go then they'll just be back next thread, shield-button upraised again, just waiting for someone to take a shot all over again.

    So yeah, if this is the direction the thread is going, let's hear some details please.

    * * * * * * * *

    Back on The Doll topic though. I currently believe that Pineapple learned that Charlie's "tower" is a bit... well, "mother with sharp claws" doesn't indicate that any communication with it went well. This means that it is either hostile in general (and therefore, hostile to Charlie) or... that it ISN'T hostile towards Charlie and they just made a big mistake.

    And that's the idea I'm having right now, that the "big mistake" caused the GM's inside Pineapple to change their great minds and start pulling an "abort" on everything, including the binding of Isaac to an Etsy.

    Speaking of which... who now owns that Etsy anyway? Is it still a CC unit? Does Pineapple own it? Is it a unit of Claud's and therefore Stanley?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:07 am 
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    Speaking of triggering...
    Arci wrote:
    Spoiler: show
    sheepfly wrote:
    JadedDragoon wrote:
    EDIT: Ok... yeah... I'm mother fucking triggered. I'll be back when the new page is up. Or not... if I'm banned before then.


    But you're not wrong.


    It is hard for me to say whether JadedDragoon is wrong or not wrong without better details. At best we are given a vague example of someone that would quickly be labeled as "not very Christian" and being told that such is "more Christian" than self proclaimed Christians.

    But I do not see that in my church. Indeed, if there was one sin that me and my fellow church members were most guilty of (that I can see) it is that we don't go out and preach and convert others enough. It isn't that we aren't faithful and don't believe, nor is it that we don't think it is important. It is because the world outside of the church scares us, we don't want to be the target of ridicule and scorn like so many groups in the world are becoming.

    And the examples of that are everywhere, heck, for every one start-up group that says "we believe this" there is another that specifically claims to believe the opposite, and BOTH sides get ridiculed and scored, making for a very strong desire to just keep our heads down and wait for the hate to blow over.

    Of course, details are necessary to truly understand, and I feel I am being just as vague as JadedDragoon was.

    Consider, JadedDragoon mentioned the "New Testiment" which seems fairly straightforward... except that the first four books all cover the same time period and no two agree perfectly. For example, the tree that Jesus cursed, did it wither within a week's time, or immediately? IIRC, there are two different descriptions thereof, though again IIRC, one of them is a little vague. Another passage (I forget where) seems to be telling the people of the church to make sure their women shut up! I was told at one point that this needed to be taken into context and that the women of that particular congregation were effectively trying to take over said congregation, but that's probably just me.

    So yeah, trigger or no trigger, there just is no saying yay or nay without more details. Just what are these churches hypocritical about? And which churches? The Jehova's Witnesses? The Catholics? The Scientologists? (I include them because... why not?!).

    Until then... there is no real saying agree or disagree.

    I also say this because there are two kinds of people who get triggered, the first is the kind that just faced something that touches them personally, something that hits a nerve that... really shouldn't have been hit: Vegeta's "Goku Button" for example. But then you have the second kind, the kind that want to be angry, they get their button triggered because they're holding it up like a shield and just WAITING for someone to take a shot, then go chasing after it shouting "I got it! I got it!" just so they can have an excuse to go off like a nuclear bomb inside of an active volcano.

    The first, I believe that they would see what I have said as a calm, "please explain this so I can understand it "request. The second would see it as a challenge to their claim, and thus see it as a form of attempting to invalidate that claim, and would become further triggered. Not that it is my intent to trigger anybody, quite the reverse, but if someone really is holding up their "trigger button" like it's a shield and then uses "triggered" as en excuse... well, there's no real way to win with someone doing that. The best response is to expose this, reveal it, and then deal with it. If you just let it go then they'll just be back next thread, shield-button upraised again, just waiting for someone to take a shot all over again.

    So yeah, if this is the direction the thread is going, let's hear some details please.

    * * * * * * * *

    Back on The Doll topic though. I currently believe that Pineapple learned that Charlie's "tower" is a bit... well, "mother with sharp claws" doesn't indicate that any communication with it went well. This means that it is either hostile in general (and therefore, hostile to Charlie) or... that it ISN'T hostile towards Charlie and they just made a big mistake.
    ...

    One should only capitalise the "P" in "Pineapple" if you are referring to someone whom only someone else can refer to as "pineapple" in the first person. *Notices Arci's avatar* Oh, never mind. Carry on, master Isaac.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:35 am 
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    Jenn_Eris wrote:
    I think you guys are missing a very important point, Claude rewrote the string bindings recursively for the "the Star Child", and probably Claud and Ivan as well based on the template of Claud's strings. I'll wager this is the cause of greater concern over cheating, and I can easily see the rest of the lifespan / energy of the "Star Child" being spent on removing cheats. (Whatever a cheat is...) Just consider the speech that Claud had ready, becoming part of the thoughts of the group mind. I think that there is a reason for even narrating the speech in the arc of the story.

    Jenn

    Well spotted. This seems likely.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:12 am 
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    DVL wrote:
    Valareos wrote:
    Well, each of the caster factions are like denominations of Christianity (I will, for future use, call them denominations of Titanism). Each has their own interpretation of Titanism and the world in general, to the point that some fanatical groups in the denominations try to force that view onto others.

    I don't think the comparison really holds up, as I regard them as closer to being jealous trade guilds. Most MK problems tend to be secular, which isn't to say they aren't religious, as Claud and Isaac clearly share a bias about "cheating" but, in the main, the different caster types just don't like others trespassing on their professional turf.

    IRL, bakers used to be a highly regulated and honorable profession. If somebody was caught sneaking filler into the dough, that would cause riots. Rival sword schools tended to jealously guard secrets and so on. Oh they might all nominally be Christian or what-have-you, but the concerns there are secular.

    I personally dislike wishy-washy spiritualism. Not everything is just open to interpretation or should be. Having an interpretation for the sake of having an interpretation isn't intellectually honest, as far as I'm concerned. That any old belief should do to fill the hole just because it's yours doesn't sit well with me. I'll take an honest nihilist over that.


    I agree with your view on wishy-washy spiritualism, unless you meant it against me, then Ill pretend to be triggered for sake of keeping up tradition. :P

    Though I could spin a Jehovah's Witness's head around by explaining in scientific rational why, if God exists, then he must do so as at least a 6th dimensional creature and miracles is simply the use of causality in a multi universe where he/she/it can see each parallel timeline and make a modification at point A to cause the quantum field to collapse to a specific option at point B, much like one can see an entire cgi animation as a series of frames, where making a modification at one frame can cause drastic changes many frames later.

    ... Yes, I am being serious ...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:54 am 
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    People have different ideas about what "Christian" teachings and values are, largely because most people are too wimpy to come out and say that Jesus was obviously just some poor nut job who was too heavily (and somewhat unavoidably) involved in the general social pathology of Judeaism under the occupation of Rome and in tension with a dozen other competing (Middle-Eastern) ideological movements. Basically, Jesus lived back when the area was as bad as it apparently always has been, and props for realizing that something was seriously wrong with the place but everyone else figured out that much.

    The enormous cultural pressure against just saying, "hey, at least the guy was less crazy than the people apparently running everything" results in everyone coming out with all manner of 'real' teachings of the 'real' Christ. These 'real' teachings range from thinly disguised Satanism to Communism to Secular Humanism to Catholicism to personality cults to Wicca to every other scheme someone wants to promote by association with "Christianity".

    But it's really pretty simple. Jesus observed that life was nasty, brutish, and short, and basically thought it would be nice if the complete opposite were somehow the case.

    Everyone wants to call their particular plan for bringing that about "Christian". But they aren't. Jesus had one plan (which apparently involved dying and returning as an ascended deity, which trick was then to be taught to everyone willing/able to learn it), all the other plans are different plans. The amazing thing is that everyone keeps subscribing to these plans. I suppose it would be even more amazing if any of them actually worked...certainly most of them don't.

    Which is what's so nice about magic in Erfworld. People can sit around all day arguing over which kind of magic is 'best', or what they should do with it, or how it really works. But at least there isn't too much dispute that it does work. Which makes Erfworld magic much more fun than all this world's 'crucial' ideologies put together (now I'm imagining the horrific synthesis of incompatible values being put into practice somewhere...it is not a State 8.20 mastery of Titanic powers).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:53 pm 
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    Since we have around two months until the next update (and probably longer until the real meaning of any of this is shown), I'm going to stake out my own interpretations of DeIsaac's meanings. If I'm correct on any, then huzzah! OTOH, if I'm wrong, at least it's in public.

    Usual caveats: They are probably wrong; I'm probably missing some subtext; and smarter people than I am have posted some similar (and different) interpretations. Also, not an expert on Kafka...

    1. "Mmm. This dear little mother has sharp claws.": The original quote was about a city, so my guess is they did give the city or portal a string, brought it to life, and found something surprising. My own guess is that the motivations of the new being were the surprise, which leads to pineapple's next actions.

    2. Transforming the doll: I think it was just that--a change, rather than a transfer. The imagery, to me, follows this interpretation:

    "Binding of Isaac" = Isaac's Binding = Binding by Isaac

    So Isaac is not likely in the doll--but pineapple bound it from carrying out its original purpose (Charlie's local representative and eyes/ears).

    3. "One must not cheat...Not even the world of its victory." Whatever DeIsaac learned from or about the Portal Golem, I think it convinced pineapple** that Fate (by whatever definition) has an outcome for Charlie, and that it's better to leave Charlie in the hands of his Fate. Any more direct action, such as a "Charge of the Light Brigade" assault by a dying DeIsaac, would be cheating that outcome, and probably make things worse somehow. Also, DeIsaac may have finished with pineapple's part in the story, and now it's time to either clean up (before the end), or move on to other things (if there is time.)

    ** Yes, I'm overdoing the pineapple thing, but why let a good idea go to waste? :-)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:45 pm 
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    Can someone just go ahead and take a bite out of Pineapple for me, please?!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:10 am 
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    multilis wrote:
    Similar story in erfworld where breaking a parley is seen as bad or good depending on whether you are on side of royal coalition or GK.

    I rationalize that kind of thing as a natural form of the unreliable narrator. We're being told the story from the perspective of the bad guys, almost exclusively. We mostly hear from GK, CC, Jillian, and recently the MK. I think we've made enough arguments about these guys but it's safe to say they're not unbiased and reasonably amoral.

    When we hear about Parson breaking a parley we hear it from GK, seeing it as the strike of strategic brilliance that turned the tide for *our* side. When Bea breaks a parley and we again hear it from GK, it's an unexpected deviation from The Way Things Should Be, i.e. treachery.

    We're supposed to root for these guys, and they're supposed to be bad guys, so when they break the rules that's because the rules must be broken and that is what we hear from *them*. I can live with that.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:02 am 
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    Arky wrote:
    braininthejar wrote:
    Umm... what the frisbee has just happened?

    Making us wait three months to find out is just trolling...


    Indeed.

    Look, this doesn't get close to some of the epic reader-trolling that Tom Siddell of Gunnerkrigg Court has pulled off (two words: "The Breakout". Gunnerkrigg readers will know what I mean), but it at least gets Rob Balder into the conversation for great trolling by webcomic writers.


    I'd still have to stick with Thunt of Goblins. As much as I enjoyed the comic, the guy really seems to get off on screwing over his fanbase.

    Rob at least has to replace a staff member and is being transparent in the need for some space; I can't say I like it(I doubt any reader likes when their favorite comic goes on hiatus), but it's a valid reason and the transparency is respectable.

    At least, being on a cliffhanger like this, the fan discussions over it will keep interesting for a good chunk of the downtime.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:38 am 
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    The use of "pineapple" as a gender- and number-neutral pronoun is delightful. It also reminds me of one of my favorite Dinosaur Comics.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:28 pm 
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    Egil wrote:
    Arky wrote:
    braininthejar wrote:
    Umm... what the frisbee has just happened?

    Making us wait three months to find out is just trolling...


    Indeed.

    Look, this doesn't get close to some of the epic reader-trolling that Tom Siddell of Gunnerkrigg Court has pulled off (two words: "The Breakout". Gunnerkrigg readers will know what I mean), but it at least gets Rob Balder into the conversation for great trolling by webcomic writers.


    I'd still have to stick with Thunt of Goblins. As much as I enjoyed the comic, the guy really seems to get off on screwing over his fanbase.

    Like the Tempts Fate 11 fiasco? Years later people still haven't got what they paid that ridiculous sum of money for.

    Egil wrote:
    At least, being on a cliffhanger like this, the fan discussions over it will keep interesting for a good chunk of the downtime.

    I've only skimmed the past few pages of the forum, but things seem to be going down the tubes already TBH. I'll see you all in three months.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:07 pm 
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    It's terrible, everyone is too confused to have even a proper argument about what just happened because they honestly can't deny that they just don't know.

    How empty the world becomes without the illusion of certainties to sustain our meaningless fury at everyone who disagrees.

    I'm going to go watch 8=∞ from season 2 of Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu. Then I can come back to review this latest page with my eyes refreshed by exposure to pure superlative genius.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:26 am 
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    Maybe it's been mentioned already but I wonder if Isaac is trying to use the MK standard procedure for this problem. Showing up from the ruins of the Temple and dropping a fresh archon corpse in front of the crowd and showing the wonky wrench and its obvious carnymancy influence could be some damned strong evidence of Charlie shenanigans. How else would a new archon arrive in the MK with a sealed portal?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:24 pm 
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    The grey-skinned Deiform entity shows up in the Magic Kingdom, in front of a crowd. His speech bubbles are full of grandiocosmic spiderwebs. He speaks in Kafka quotes. He brims with the power of a Trance-Fusion beyond the previously conceived powers available to mortals.

    Do you really think they're going to care about a wrench?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:23 pm 
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    They might care about the part where he has access to unlimited juice through the portal columns...but that may not even require the wrench.

    On the other hand, Deiform is as likely to have decided that the MK system itself is cheating. I mean, think of it...the Titanic purpose of the MK may just be to allow sides access to barbarian casters, but the MK Qualified have created a situation where it also serves as a place for forbidden research into cross-discipline and even class magical investigation. As fruitless as that seems to be in most cases, it does occasionally produce the kinds of things the GMTTA feel the need to suppress.

    Okay, that's a bit of a stretch. If the Titans really wanted to keep that from happening, they could have had multiple MK's, one for each class. But I don't believe such a stretch is beyond the GMTTA, since it seems to me the Titans never appointed them guardians of all magic and arbiters of what was and wasn't 'cheating'. They've already swallowed a camel, why strain at the gnats?

    Still, add it to the list of things Deiform might be planning. Confront the Qualified with the evidence to enlist their aid against Charlie...or destroy them. But we've already discussed assimilation into the over-mind, which would seem to count as both at once. I'm almost sure that would be cheating, though.

    Almost.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:04 pm 
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    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    ?.. everyone is too confused to have even a proper argument about what just happened because they honestly can't deny that they just don't know.


    I am pretty sure Big Think is off to see Jed, to gage the outcome of awaking a part of Erfworld such as a portal column.

    I suspect Big Think will use the wrench to kipi Jed's portal, and that the result will be much more significant than just allowing two-way transport to the Magic Kingdom for all.

    My guess is that the collars constrain the portals' function, and once Jed's is kipi'd, Jed will have control over its destination.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 275
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:36 pm 
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    What? Like being able to send directly to another capital site? An interesting thought, but how exactly is that more significant than GK securing control over Portal Park?

    Or do you mean put the portal destination anywhere irrespective of whether there is even a portal column present? Cause that seems much less likely. Especially with all that talk about not cheating. It also would make more sense to take Ivan along if that were the idea.

    I think the most likely explanation is that State 8 restored (or increased) the restrictions on CC's portal column somehow (thus the comment about claws, with reference to not being able to leave a city) and then decided against further OP intervention on GK's behalf. Ivan and Claud are being left on standby mode so they won't alert Wanda that Deiform is no longer an ally as such. The Wonky Wrench is headed for a bedrock tomb in an undisclosed location...not really sure what Deiform is going to do with Isaac's body. Hopefully Ivan and Claud are released before being destroyed when Deiform burns out.

    Another possibility was mentioned involving returning to the Temple site and using the Thinkamancy polarized Stuff of the Temple columns to make a State 8 support system...but again I don't see how leaving Ivan and Claud behind would help. Same for heading to TV.

    And yet, Wanda is Predicted to pop up near the ICFYS portal...unless Phil was just lying about that. Which is a thing Predictamancers are known to do (I mean, sure, other casters might lie about things, but giving false Predictions kinda destroys the whole point of listening to Predictamancers).

    I don't like the "most likely" explanation here, and I'm not sure whether it's because it places yet another obstacle for GK or because it feels like a waste of narrative spent on building up Deiform as a major development. To a degree, it makes sense for State 8 to reject further OP intervention and accept it's own inevitable end. But it also feels frustratingly pointless to have all that buildup if all Deiform really did was save Wanda from Charlie's hit squad and unkipi CC's portal. It makes sense for Deiform to have a status quo bias...but it doesn't advance the story.

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