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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 270
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:21 pm 
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Chris Goodwin wrote:
Ahh, yes. They had a Moneymancer and a Hat Magician, not a Signamancer, so they sent gems by hat.

I'm surprised Charlie hasn't set up a contract-based money transfer network. For one tenth of one percent plus a small service fee of 30 Shmuckers, with a minimum charge of 100 Shmuckers, Charlie would transfer any amount of Shmuckers from one side to another. Just sign here...


Maybe charlie cannot do so, because there is already a Pyramidal Scheme going with all the Free Moneymancers group.

Probably Charlie (if he manages to survive this aftermath) will take their place once Wanda conquers the MK :o

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 270
     Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:05 pm 
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    Morgaln wrote:
    I would be interested in seeing something like a rogue Predictamancer; one that doesn't buy into the same "fate is unavoidable" belief most Predictamancers seem to but who works at trying to find the loopholes in the predictions. I'm sure they must exist, there's never just one single viewpoint.
    Delphi Temple. And probably quite a few others. While one can understand the tendency of rulers to dislike Predictamancers anyway (given the reminder that rulers don't have absolute power), maybe there are enough of them that resort to trying to 'trick' a Prediction with disastrous results for some of the reputation for bad luck to be deserved.

    Charlie does a lot of odd-ball contract work. But he's also got a legendary reputation for screwing his customers over. I'm sure he's had the "proxy contract service" thing going a few times. I'm also sure he couldn't resist screwing his clients out of a few thousand extra shmuckers each time someone was stupid enough to trust him like that, and so the vast majority of sides continue to not trust him.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 270
     Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:17 pm 
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    Shen Hibiki wrote:
    Axiom wrote:
    Why that's a restriction, I don't know. There are probably some shenanigans that you could pull with unlimited free schmucker transfer, but I'm having trouble thinking anything up.


    Yeh, I mean if you can share shmuckers by contract anyway...

    You sprout a couple new sides.
    Sign hard alliance, non-agression, treasury-sharing contracts, with the 'free schmucker transfer' the contracts involve.
    Now, those sides are basicly one single side money-wise, but they don't have the 'too many cities, so produce less schmuckers' penalty, and can keep expanding easily without that problem, which is the flaw of big sides, as the comic has told us.

    ... why they don't do that ._.?


    I'm pretty sure you juts re-invented the colonies mentioned in the Duke Forecastle story.

    As to why that isn't done more often, technically being separate sides also means they have separate overlords and that means internal conflict that can escalate into withdrawing from the alliance.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 270
     Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:03 pm 
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    tadthornhill wrote:
    Shen Hibiki wrote:
    Axiom wrote:
    Why that's a restriction, I don't know. There are probably some shenanigans that you could pull with unlimited free schmucker transfer, but I'm having trouble thinking anything up.


    Yeh, I mean if you can share shmuckers by contract anyway...

    You sprout a couple new sides.
    Sign hard alliance, non-agression, treasury-sharing contracts, with the 'free schmucker transfer' the contracts involve.
    Now, those sides are basicly one single side money-wise, but they don't have the 'too many cities, so produce less schmuckers' penalty, and can keep expanding easily without that problem, which is the flaw of big sides, as the comic has told us.

    ... why they don't do that ._.?

    Trust.

    Charlie's one big failing.
    Spoiler: show
    The cause of the fall of the side of Homekey.

    The key word in 'Trust Fund'.

    Acton's Law states that power tends to corrupt and absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely.

    Each ruler has absolute power over their units, and the thought of just a little bit more absolute power can be pretty tempting. If you build this alliance on legal contracts rulers will try to find a way around the them. The alliance would have to be built on trust and friendship.

    Nah, Charlie's problem is that noone trusts him.

    I don't see what Homekey has to do with anything. (Not like there are many people that don't trust him because of that)

    I am assuming by "Acton's Law", you mean "Archon's Law", which you mean to say one of Charlie's rules. I don't recall Charlie having any rules about "Absolute power corrupting absolutely".

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 270
     Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:20 pm 
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    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    I am assuming by "Acton's Law", you mean "Archon's Law", which you mean to say one of Charlie's rules. I don't recall Charlie having any rules about "Absolute power corrupting absolutely".


    Acton's Law (or Acton's Dictum) is a real thing, actually, not an Erfworld thing.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 270
     Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:31 pm 
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    Ok, there have been a couple posts about the nature of Prediction.
    First off, we don't know how a Predictamancer makes a Prediction, whether it be;
    1) Self-created aka a Dictum
    2) Or whether it's received via Fate.

    We also don't know whether a Predictamancer only 'sees' an event (like with Marie calling the shots for her and Gloria) or whether it's inferred knowledge.

    As I go on, it gets harder and harder to explain what I mean. Let's restart taking Marie and Gloria into account.

    When storming ICFS, Marie was making Predictions on the fly about the whereabouts of not only the soldiers, but even before that ICFS's portal appearing. If this was a 'Dictum' then it was a doozy of one, not only requiring Jillian to take GK, not only Vinny to then successfully take FAQ's capital, but also to force the portal of the newly created capital to form to not only block an incoming shot from a free caster, but also just as a lone soldier was going by the newly made portal room.

    Now I think that we can safely assume that other Predictamancers would have to be behind creating this 'Dictum' as Marie was out of commission for some of these events. But even still, to force that chain reaction of coincidences so seamlessly? That's link-up level casting right there. I don't think even a Master-Class Predictamancer could manage that alone.

    And correct me if I'm wrong, but, barring the Arkendish, all links require a Thinkamancer right? Or did I miss something that said Casters of the same disciple could link up without a Thinkamancer? Barring the latter, we're left with the fact that a created 'Dictum' could not have gotten Marie to Jillian, not without Thinkamancer intervention. And seeing as all Great Mind Think Alike, any external link-up to create allow Decrypted Marie to run loose in FAQ's new capital with a gun would have been quickly ferreted out. Unless there's another Thinkamancer with a 'Garden' out there...

    Anyway, that leaves only the option of Predictamancer's actually foretelling the future. As Marie said to Gloria, 'Not many battles matter' (can't find the direct quote, rushing to prevent a time-out, sorry) we can fairly safely assume that all Predicted events aren't Fated (as we know that Fated events will occur with allowances for only minor variations). From this we can tentatively assume that Fated events are Predicted as the same for all Predictamancers.

    However, there's then the case of non-fated counter-predictions. I read somewhere else (not even sure if it was this page's thread) inquiring what if two Predictamancer's foretell a unit entering a portal and remaining in a dungeon simultaneously. Barring identical looking units or illusions, we have a paradox. Only one can be right.

    To rectify this, we must remember two vital things;
    1) Non-Fated events are not certain
    2) Even Fated events can be altered.

    Due to this, I see Prediction as being more along the lines of Future Vision a la Garnet from Steven Universe, or Lem Dyer from Judgement Day. The user is presented with a variety of outcomes and can select to take actions to take to elicit those outcomes. Perhaps to a Novice Predictamancer, they foresee fewer options, or have a more limited scope of how these events occur/unfold. To a more experienced Caster, they can nudge one outcome to occur over another without taking the required actions. But either way, at the end of the day, when it comes down to who's possible future makes itself the reality is whomever is the better caster. And a bit of luck. So long as fate decides it's unnecessary to intercede to sway things one way or another, the result is no different then two Croakamancer's uncroaking to equally leveled units and pitting them against one another, or two Dirtamancer's throwing stones, or two Shockamancer's blasting bolts.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 270
     Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:17 pm 
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    Is anyone else getting error "504 Gateway Timeout" when they try to see the wiki?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 270
     Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:51 pm 
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    PsychoMentats wrote:
    Is anyone else getting error "504 Gateway Timeout" when they try to see the wiki?


    Never mind, seems fine now... :?:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 270
     Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:33 pm 
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    IronDino wrote:
    Due to this, I see Prediction as being more along the lines of Future Vision a la Garnet from Steven Universe, or Lem Dyer from Judgement Day. The user is presented with a variety of outcomes and can select to take actions to take to elicit those outcomes. Perhaps to a Novice Predictamancer, they foresee fewer options, or have a more limited scope of how these events occur/unfold. To a more experienced Caster, they can nudge one outcome to occur over another without taking the required actions. But either way, at the end of the day, when it comes down to who's possible future makes itself the reality is whomever is the better caster. And a bit of luck. So long as fate decides it's unnecessary to intercede to sway things one way or another, the result is no different then two Croakamancer's uncroaking to equally leveled units and pitting them against one another, or two Dirtamancer's throwing stones, or two Shockamancer's blasting bolts.
    I think that's a nice way to express the real implications of the "Dictum" theory, since that theory does still require that Predictamancers have access to information that is effectively about the future, while a lot of people focus only on the part of the theory that states that the future isn't really set yet. The formation of a new portal at the ICFYS site is a good example of an event that would not have been remotely probable by any normal interpretation of that term when Marie first made her plan based on it (keeping in mind that her conversation with Carniac strongly suggests that the plan she was executing predated her croaking at the Battle of Portal Park), and at the time the portal appeared it was still entirely unlikely based on any non-clairvoyant knowledge available to her.

    I still have to advance the theory that Predictamancers are seeing a definite future event which has 'already' happened (or rather, been deterministically established as an inevitable outcome) when they see it, because this is narratively important. That is to say, a fundamental aspect of the overall story so far is that this has not been falsified. If we do reach an event where it is falsified, that will represent a radical turning point in the entire story so far.

    But it's important to recognize that the "Dictum" theory doesn't exclude the notion that Predictamancers have real and valid insight into the future which other disciplines lack, in the same way that Lookamancers can see real details about events in other hexes (which other units cannot see) despite the relative nature of time across hex boundaries. Too much of the speculation about what "Dictum" theory implies ignores this basic point.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 270
     Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:09 pm 
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    Turtlewing wrote:
    Shen Hibiki wrote:
    Axiom wrote:
    Why that's a restriction, I don't know. There are probably some shenanigans that you could pull with unlimited free schmucker transfer, but I'm having trouble thinking anything up.


    Yeh, I mean if you can share shmuckers by contract anyway...

    You sprout a couple new sides.
    Sign hard alliance, non-agression, treasury-sharing contracts, with the 'free schmucker transfer' the contracts involve.
    Now, those sides are basicly one single side money-wise, but they don't have the 'too many cities, so produce less schmuckers' penalty, and can keep expanding easily without that problem, which is the flaw of big sides, as the comic has told us.

    ... why they don't do that ._.?


    I'm pretty sure you juts re-invented the colonies mentioned in the Duke Forecastle story.

    As to why that isn't done more often, technically being separate sides also means they have separate overlords and that means internal conflict that can escalate into withdrawing from the alliance.


    They actually do that all the time.
    Parson mentions that Royal sides tend to do this a lot. Don King was sort of doing this with Jillian, on the theory that spreading the cause of Royalism would get him an ally who could be trusted.
    If GK had fallen in the first chapter, the plan was for Ansom to take over as the King of a new side.
    Seaworld is an example but so is Homekey from Digdoug, which has a falling out with its parent side.

    And in point of fact, it's probably why the original 100 Royal sides or so actually fragmented into all these different sides. And even with all their differences, the coalitions of Royal sides are so strong that they actually all collectively curb stomp the little guy.

    It works great until simple genetic divergence or treachery breaks the arrangement.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 270
     Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:15 pm 
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    The last paragraph, the part about using decrypted as cannon fodder... could that be what drives Wanda into the Queen of Faq's embrace?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 270
     Post Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:25 pm 
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    Whispri wrote:
    The last paragraph, the part about using decrypted as cannon fodder... could that be what drives Wanda into the Queen of Faq's embrace?


    Did you see what the Queen of FAQ just did to all the decrypted she captured with the city now known as I'm Coming For You Stanley?

    I've seen no sign Wanda cares about decrypted infantry being used in cannon fodder roles, but even if she did it wouldn't prompt her to sign up with a side which regards decrypted as an abomination to be wiped off the face of Erf.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 270
     Post Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:01 pm 
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    Frank Crow wrote:
    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    Squall83 wrote:
    Haha, I see, I could've thought of that myself, really. I admit I don't see the point of instantly converting gems into shmuckers if you can do it whenever you please anyway.

    Having a bigger treasury lets Stanley feel big and important. It's an ego thing. No one said Stanley was smart.

    Stanley might be losing his mellow now that Parson is causing his treasury to disappear for a third time.

    He'd also have an easier time communicating with Stanley if he chose to use his eyebook instead. Using Jed the Maggie as an emmisary hasn't proved to be very efficient.


    Except Charlie spoke with him using the eyebook. Not useful plans against him.

    Also I am not sure, whether the eyebooks still work, now that the 3—eyemancer linkup is over.

    The eyebooks still work, Gobwin Knob just doesn't use them since Charlie has compromised them. Remember Stanley's talk with Sizemore about him getting promotted to Chief Caster during Aftermathamancy?

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