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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 268
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:53 am 
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Malady wrote:
Er.. Ahgggh... That's like saying all pastries are the same 'cause they're made of sugar and bread?


No, that's like saying "Pastries are made of sugar and bread and I've had and enjoyed many many many variations thereof and thus I'm tired of pastries, and a new pastry shop opened next door but I'm not excited because they just have the same old pastries."


Malady wrote:
There's appealing ways of doing things, and unappealing ways of doing things, (not saying 'good' and 'bad' 'cause that's a bit more subjective than I'm wanting...)


I never said all sci-fi is bad. I said I don't read it anymore because it's all the same.

Malady wrote:
And while they might share some things, it's the differences that make or break appeal...


True, but in my experience the differences became minimal and thus have lost their appeal to me.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 268
     Post Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:39 am 
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    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    True, but in my experience the differences became minimal and thus have lost their appeal to me.


    OOOOOOH, I understand, how silly of me, I thought you were serious, but you are just being all cool and sophisticated 'n shit.

    Why don't you tell us how Dickens is so over-rated and unimportant, that will make you seem really cool bro. And really grown up too.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 268
     Post Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:10 pm 
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    Tonot wrote:
    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    True, but in my experience the differences became minimal and thus have lost their appeal to me.


    OOOOOOH, I understand, how silly of me, I thought you were serious, but you are just being all cool and sophisticated 'n shit.

    Why don't you tell us how Dickens is so over-rated and unimportant, that will make you seem really cool bro. And really grown up too.


    LOL what? That doesn't even make sense.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 268
     Post Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:58 pm 
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    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    Tonot wrote:
    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    True, but in my experience the differences became minimal and thus have lost their appeal to me.


    OOOOOOH, I understand, how silly of me, I thought you were serious, but you are just being all cool and sophisticated 'n shit.

    Why don't you tell us how Dickens is so over-rated and unimportant, that will make you seem really cool bro. And really grown up too.


    LOL what? That doesn't even make sense.


    Well... What I think Tonot's trying to say, in his... pointed and roundabout way, is that you don't seem to be seeing the differences between books that he finds seemingly obvious.

    Like... Here's a quote from you, on the last page:

    viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13865&start=180#p223305

    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    "On a remote, icy planet, the soldier known as Breq is drawing closer to completing her quest. Once, she was the Justice of Toren - a colossal starship with an artificial intelligence linking thousands of soldiers in the service of the Radch, the empire that conquered the galaxy. Now, an act of treachery has ripped it all away, leaving her with one fragile human body, unanswered questions, and a burning desire for vengeance."

    Fallen/demoted hero on a quest on a high tech space ship/army (belonging to the galaxy conquering empire!), and betrayal, and a desire for vengence.

    Tell me one original thing about that setup.


    What's original isn't the setup, a.k.a the basic skeleton, it's the dimensions of the bones, is it a child's skeleton? How did they eat? How did they die, etc. ... Am I stretching the metaphor too far?

    And then there might be twists and things that aren't revealed just from the description... ... Could you tell me where the story's gonna go, just from that blurb? ... Now I'm wondering if she's gonna get allies...

    ... Actually, given that description, she actually doesn't have a ship? She was a ship. Now she just has her knowledge and questions to answer, with that, and vengeance to motivate her. And she's not used to being human... Can you find another story like that, actually? I'm serious. I'm not familiar with a lot of sci-fi, so having a 'hero' with such a lack of resources is a new scenario to me...

    This was wrong:
    Spoiler: show
    What capabilities does the ship have? Is it just a craft, and they have to operate via super-stealth? Do they only have the one ship?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 268
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:34 am 
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    Malady wrote:
    She was a ship. Now she just has her knowledge and questions to answer, with that, and vengeance to motivate her.

    Actually, I chose that story in particular because it proved the abject paucity of the claim that "all sci fi has become derivative" in an inarguable way. The story isn't about a ship, or a thinking component of one, or revenge, justice, or even folkwisdom-as-stored-in-song, though it contains all those things.
    It is a masterwork about identity, both self asserted and imposed. It totally stunned critics and readers alike, won hands down all the awards, and is the most humane and GOOD work you might read in a month of sundays. While also being stirring, adventurous, funny, moving, and moral.

    The long way around to a small angry planet is a cry from the heart for tolerance, compassion, and equality. While also being a neat adventure story.

    The person claiming works like these are derivative is actually just making clear two things. That they have a lot to learn about literature, and that they have tried to learn by visiting tvtropes and come down with a case of ignorant-cynicism poisoning, which it is entirely made of.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 268
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:58 am 
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    I get the feeling she's already done something weird. She's been learning from Parson.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 268
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:40 am 
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    Tonot wrote:
    Malady wrote:
    She was a ship. Now she just has her knowledge and questions to answer, with that, and vengeance to motivate her.

    Actually, I chose that story in particular because it proved the abject paucity of the claim that "all sci fi has become derivative" in an inarguable way. The story isn't about a ship, or a thinking component of one, or revenge, justice, or even folkwisdom-as-stored-in-song, though it contains all those things.
    It is a masterwork about identity, both self asserted and imposed. It totally stunned critics and readers alike, won hands down all the awards, and is the most humane and GOOD work you might read in a month of sundays. While also being stirring, adventurous, funny, moving, and moral.

    The long way around to a small angry planet is a cry from the heart for tolerance, compassion, and equality. While also being a neat adventure story.

    The person claiming works like these are derivative is actually just making clear two things. That they have a lot to learn about literature, and that they have tried to learn by visiting tvtropes and come down with a case of ignorant-cynicism poisoning, which it is entirely made of.


    Uhh... We wouldn't and won't have any way to get what you got out of it, unless you provide quotes, 'cause I'm not up to shelling out cash to prove / disprove your point, right now... Not that invested in it... (Pun!)

    ... So she takes over a planet (clarifying edit: like, as an AI)? Or the planet is made of people and the people are angry... Intriguing if it's the first one, if it's the second... Not as much...

    You might have had some mis-attributation there... And don't tar us all with the same brush! ... I was the one speaking in Troperese, and as a writer, I'm taking the site really positively! Seeing what I haven't done, and possibly incorporating that, or finding new tropes to play around with...

    TVTropes hasn't ruined my life...

    I said Erfworld was a Munchkin SummonEverymanHero in a RPGMechanicsVerse, so that OneBigTuck, or whatever, would respond with why he likes Erfworld, so we could show him how to find differences, or at least some more insight into his viewpoint...

    Edit: "is drawing closer to completing her quest. " ... I missed that part, 'cause it was at the beginning of the summary, instead of the end...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 268
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:42 pm 
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    Tonot wrote:
    The person claiming works like these are derivative is actually just making clear two things. That they have a lot to learn about literature, and that they have tried to learn by visiting tvtropes and come down with a case of ignorant-cynicism poisoning, which it is entirely made of.


    LOL. OK.

    Sorry, not 'inarguable'. There's more than a few 'girl who is a spaceship with identity issues (and revenge and space adventure etc)' stories out there. So whether derivitave or the birth of the derivitaves, yes, derivative and repetitive (yes obviously with some variation in the storylines, duh) to me.

    And regardless of whether it's a girl or a boy, who is or is not a space ship (or computer or battlemech droid (equivalent) or slave to alien king or or or or....) sci-fi novels have and do cover the big picture themes of identity, angst, etc, etc, etc. Adding identity anything to a space adventure doesn't make it not derivative, because there's straight space adventures, and there's space adventures built around bigger picture 'personal' narratives, etc. Been there done that.

    Also, never been to a tvtropes website. Nice ad hom though.


    Tonot wrote:
    ...so we could show him how to find differences..


    Right...because I'm retarded and don't know how to 'find differences' in sci fi. Puh-lease.


    If I personally no longer find sci-fi enjoyable, you (Tonot specifically) should DEFINITELY get your panties in a bunch over it.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 268
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:43 am 
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    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    Tonot wrote:


    ...so we could show him how to find differences..


    Right...because I'm retarded and don't know how to 'find differences' in sci fi. Puh-lease.


    I didn't say you are retarded. You are inexperienced though. And a liar. The fact that you would make such an obvious lie, as I have highlighted above by capturing it, shows you to be also simple minded, because when people read you lying, they learn to distrust you.
    Someone who can not maintain their own side of an argument without lying to misrepresent their opponent, is weak and knows they are weak.

    Your being prepared to lie about something I said, also exposes you to justified doubt as to the truth in everything you write. So I will be straight forward and say I think you lie, like a dog, when you say you have never been to tvtropes.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 268
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:46 am 
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    Tonot wrote:
    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    [

    Right...because I'm retarded and don't know how to 'find differences' in sci fi. Puh-lease.


    I didn't say you are retarded.


    LOL. I didn't say you said I'm retarded. It wasn't even you that said the thing I was responding to with that line.

    Update: Upon review, maybe it was you that said it, it looks like perhaps Malady's quoting was messed up? Regardless, I didnt say you stated I was retarded, so get over yourself.

    Tonot wrote:
    You are inexperienced though. And a liar. The fact that you would make such an obvious lie, as I have highlighted above by capturing it, shows you to be also simple minded, because when people read you lying, they learn to distrust you.
    Someone who can not maintain their own side of an argument without lying to misrepresent their opponent, is weak and knows they are weak.

    Your being prepared to lie about something I said, also exposes you to justified doubt as to the truth in everything you write.


    LOL (again, but louder).

    I'm inexperienced because I was a hard core scii-fi/fantasy reader from 3rd grade till I was 30 or so?

    Sure man, sure. Your logic unassailable.

    And you're upset/offended/whatever because -I- am bored with the genre? Heh....have fun with that.

    Tonot wrote:
    So I will be straight forward and say I think you lie, like a dog, when you say you have never been to tvtropes.


    They're your thoughts, you can think whatever you want. Do know, however, that you are wrong about this particular opinion, as I have never been to a tvtropes site.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 268
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:57 am 
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    OneHugeTuck wrote:

    I'm not saying any particular book isn't good, but at this point it's like wine tasting....might be some subtle variation to enjoy, but it's just another bottle of wine.


    I'm certainly not getting into the shitfest you guys are having, because in my opinion, whatever someone reads or doesn't read is their own choice, and there's no reason to insult people over that choice.

    But I'm honestly curious; in my experience, the above is true for pretty much any genre once you read a certain amount; are there any genres you still enjoy? Or have you stopped reading fiction altogether?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 268
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:25 am 
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    Morgaln wrote:

    I'm certainly not getting into the shitfest you guys are having, because in my opinion, whatever someone reads or doesn't read is their own choice, and there's no reason to insult people over that choice.


    That's very civilized of you, thank you.

    Morgaln wrote:
    But I'm honestly curious; in my experience, the above is true for pretty much any genre once you read a certain amount; are there any genres you still enjoy? Or have you stopped reading fiction altogether?


    That's also very civilized of you. Again, thank you.

    It probably is true for any genre. The brain craves newness. The brain is also wired to become (extremely) jaded.

    I've read....a lot, in my younger life. One summer in high school I laid around and read so much that when I figured out it might be smart to get in shape a little bit to try out for sport, I went out to the road to go for a jog/run, and my brain/body had literally forgotten how to run.

    That's a weird experience....trying to run and literally not being able to. It took me like 2 hours to figure it out/get back to being able to run down the road.

    Point being, I've read A LOT of sci-fi and fantasy. The Sword of Shannara in 3rd grade, for instance.

    I just sort of hit a point about age 30 where I wasn't interested any more. With a correlate to that I changed my focus from living in a fantasy world to going out and living real life.


    Erfworld and a couple other webcomics (erfworld tops the list by far) fill/feed my fantasy hunger now, without the investment of hours and days of reading through a novel (that has minimal returns for me nowadays).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 268
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:48 am 
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    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    Tonot wrote:
    So I will be straight forward and say I think you lie, like a dog, when you say you have never been to tvtropes.


    They're your thoughts, you can think whatever you want. Do know, however, that you are wrong about this particular opinion, as I have never been to a tvtropes site.

    I can confirm OneHugeTuck has never been to TVTropes. No one who has ever been there would have such a low density of blue links in their posts.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 268
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:23 am 
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    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    Malady wrote:
    ...so we could show him how to find differences..


    Right...because I'm retarded and don't know how to 'find differences' in sci fi. Puh-lease.


    Update: Upon review, maybe it was you that said it, it looks like perhaps Malady's quoting was messed up?


    ... Uh, No... I was the one that said that stuff about "finding differences"... Can't embed more than 3 quotes... I get it, but still, annoying...

    And I may have been inaccurate with my purpose... Maybe. ... It was intended to figure out what you don't like about Sci-Fi, and then Tonot could give something that you would like...

    Mainly, I was annoyed 'cause you're dismissing-ish all the works of one, very broad, genre, however you define it... Under, what I presumed, was a... well... broad, generalization... (Huh. Wordplay...)

    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    Erfworld and a couple other webcomics (erfworld tops the list by far) fill/feed my fantasy hunger now, without the investment of hours and days of reading through a novel (that has minimal returns for me nowadays).


    Huh...

    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    Sorry, not 'inarguable'. There's more than a few 'girl who is a spaceship with identity issues (and revenge and space adventure etc)' stories out there. So whether derivitave or the birth of the derivitaves, yes, derivative and repetitive (yes obviously with some variation in the storylines, duh) to me.

    And regardless of whether it's a girl or a boy, who is or is not a space ship (or computer or battlemech droid (equivalent) or slave to alien king or or or or....) sci-fi novels have and do cover the big picture themes of identity, angst, etc, etc, etc. Adding identity anything to a space adventure doesn't make it not derivative, because there's straight space adventures, and there's space adventures built around bigger picture 'personal' narratives, etc. Been there done that.


    So, fantasy works for you, but Sci-Fi doesn't... Possibly because Fantasy... I think... is usually just straight adventure, instead of the (typical?) identity stuff that Sci-Fi does...?

    Okay.

    ...

    OneHugeTuck wrote:
    I've read....a lot, in my younger life. One summer in high school I laid around and read so much that when I figured out it might be smart to get in shape a little bit to try out for sport, I went out to the road to go for a jog/run, and my brain/body had literally forgotten how to run.

    That's a weird experience....trying to run and literally not being able to. It took me like 2 hours to figure it out/get back to being able to run down the road.


    Woah. I didn't know you could read that much... Or, more accurately, that the body could forget how to run... Wow.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 268
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:02 pm 
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    Malady wrote:
    Woah. I didn't know you could read that much... Or, more accurately, that the body could forget how to run... Wow.
    It's no more difficult than forgetting how to see. Neural Plasticity.

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