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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 243
 Post Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:47 am 
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Holy gambits, Fatman!

- Charlie and the GMTTA have been battling for some time.
- Charlie has had the capacity to undermine the temple for as long as the Wonky Wrench has existed.
- Charlie has not been able to exercise this capacity, because the GMs could spy below the bedrock.
- The GMs negotiated away that capacity, thinking they were striking a great blow against Charlie (in making the Dish OP).

Congratulations, GMTTA, you played yourself.

How long has this been a gambit for Charlie? Did he have this as a possible outcome in instigating/escalating the Battle of Portal Park? In the "interrogation" of Lilith? In writing the Truce Contract?
How deep do Charlie's plans go?


Last edited by Pete on Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 243
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:48 am 
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    I don't think the "second survivor" necessarily survived, given the posture she's propped up in. Limp looking, and her right arm appears unnaturally bent to me. Could be incap or croak.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 243
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:49 am 
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    RaidAurora wrote:
    I don't think the "second survivor" necessarily survived, given the posture she's propped up in. Limp looking, and her right arm appears unnaturally bent to me. Could be incap or croak.

    Maybe she has a half-life.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 243
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:50 am 
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    Isaac's eyes is similar to someone in a linkup. Just something to note.
    JelloTool wrote:
    Wait. This means something is going to happen to Wanda or the Pliers this turn. Decrypting so many GMs would be insanely OP. That would be very sad for Bunny, if that was the case. I kinda wanted her to come back to be the Greatest Mind.

    Of course, it could be possible they're just not reunited until after they leave the MK. Here's hoping!

    Does the story require that GK constantly be hobbled so that they remain at the same strength? It's honestly annoying when people use this type of logic (bad things must happen so that there remains an antagonist so the story can continue, AKA the Erfworld war continues.) By this point in the story, war on Erf is meant to end permanently. The story has to conclude at some point, if that happens by using the power of the GMs, then so it happens.

    Although some of the GMs are buried in the rubble, which might make decrypting them in a living state problematic.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 243
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:51 am 
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    Oh boy. Oh yes. They really took the very hard way.
    Interjection Games wrote:
    Oof, that's going to leave a mark on the Hungry Jungle fanfics.

    Don't worry, it can just be set a sufficiently long time before the current events.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 243
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:53 am 
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    Pete wrote:
    Holy gambits, Fatman!

    - Charlie and the GMTTA have been battling for some time.
    - Charlie has had the capacity to undermine the temple for as long as the Wonky Wrench has existed.
    - Charlie has not been able to exercise this capacity, because the GMs could spy below the bedrock.
    - The GMs negotiated away that capacity, thinking they were striking a great blow against Charlie (in making the Dish OP).

    Congratulations, GMTTA, you played yourself.

    How long has this been a gambit for Charlie? Did he have this as a possible outcome in instigating/escalating the Battle of Portal Park? In the "interrogation" of Lilith? In writing the Truce Contract?
    How deep do his plans go?

    I doubt Charlie can plan that far. I suspect that the GMs didn't know that Charlie could cast through dolls, which is an ability demonstrated by absolutely nobody through Erf. Although they should have suspected such, due to their knowledge of Archon-extended casting.. which is probably Dollamancy, actually.

    I think they just didn't know that there a spy doll there - Isaac mentioned them being difficult to observe, even with Lookamancy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 243
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:55 am 
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    Shard wrote:
    It's the little things that make a difference, really..


    Did you do that on purpose? 8-)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 243
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:55 am 
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    The main temple is toast, but panel 1 shows four ancillary structures still intact. I wonder if any of them might still have Thinkamancy functions; possibly one or more were prototypes?

    That said, definitelyat least one casualty and multiple incapacitations, with maybe more of the former and only one guaranteed survivor. However, I doubt that Wanda will get the Arkenpliers in time to be helpful; the Great Minds seemed to verge on "Plot Device" OP, and that's generally not the level of know-how you willy-nilly hand over to a Protagonist.

    On the other hand, if it turns out that Charlie has an arsenal of every sort of OP that's been discovered in the last 50000 turns... maybe.

    Shard wrote:
    3) Isaac just rolled well on string backlash. He is one of the brightest Great Minds.

    He goes all the way up to 11.

    Shard wrote:
    Although they should have suspected such, due to their knowledge of Archon-extended casting.. which is probably Dollamancy, actually.

    So, the Archons are Charlie's love dolls? Ewwww....

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 243
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:57 am 
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    Shard wrote:
    Honestly this feels sad, really.

    Is Isaac speaking, or is he subvocalizing?

    Given the style of speech bubbles and how they remind me of Bunnies (who was banned from using her actual voice due to being judged 'bad'), I'd say he's think-speaking.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 243
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:04 am 
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    Noobamancer wrote:
    1.Plan to rescue Wanda.

    2. Pliers in friendly(ish) hands.

    3. Lots of dead thinkamancers.

    4. PROFIT!!!


    I suspect that decrypting a body currently crushed beneath a boulder might only result in a pile of dust.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 243
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:07 am 
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    So this clears the way for Marie to make her assault on the Emm Kay.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 243
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:08 am 
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    abb3w wrote:
    Shard wrote:
    Although they should have suspected such, due to their knowledge of Archon-extended casting.. which is probably Dollamancy, actually.

    So, the Archons are Charlie's love dolls? Ewwww....


    Honestly, that's be "ewwww...." for a while.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 243
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:10 am 
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    Pete wrote:
    Noobamancer wrote:
    1.Plan to rescue Wanda.

    2. Pliers in friendly(ish) hands.

    3. Lots of dead thinkamancers.

    4. PROFIT!!!


    I suspect that decrypting a body currently crushed beneath a boulder might only result in a pile of dust.


    That's why you get Sizemore to remove the rubble first. And then make a rubble golem named Barney.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 243
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:11 am 
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    Boy, GMs. Sure would be convenient to have an ally who could bring all these dead of yours back to life. Alas no such person with that capability exis-... WAIT STOP THE EXECUTIONS

    It'll be amusing if it's Charlie who ends up saving Wanda this way. The whole 5 mil thing for extracting the wrench might turn out juuust that tiny bit even more of a bad call.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 243
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:11 am 
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    Pete wrote:
    I suspect that decrypting a body currently crushed beneath a boulder might only result in a pile of dust.

    That's why you need some decrypted Dirtamancers too.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 243
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:13 am 
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    Oh, Isaac's eyes look similar to Maggie's from http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%202/100.
    Templar wrote:
    Shard wrote:
    It's the little things that make a difference, really..


    Did you do that on purpose? 8-)

    They're Arc Words - They come up there, and also when Zhopa speaks to Stanley, then again when Don speaks to Vanna. And if you notice, a lot of the big events in the story is due to 'The Little Things'.

    The 1 gem that led to Stanley buying the Summon Perfect Warlord spell.
    The Predictamancer (presumably Marie) that advised King Slately, leading to Wanda getting the Arkenpliers.
    Parson's chats with Zhopa, eventually leading to the troll (with Fatey assistance, possibly) convincing Stanley to swap capitals.
    Parson's idea to make the smallest possible unit... that is mentioned by Isaac to be difficult to spot even with Lookamancy... that gets copied by Claude.. that is then used to demolish the Temple... not getting destroyed because the Minds didn't notice it!
    Charlie's obsession with Fate that leads to.. the contract.. which make assasinating Stanley dubious.
    Parson's (again) idea to make a tower.. that leads to Maggie.. that leads to TV being brought to a decisive point.. that leads.. to Bunny croaking King Don.. that leads to a Badness spell activation.. that leads to the Great Minds deciding to hold off orderly disjunction of their State 7.. that leads to them mostly getting croaked when their Temple is sapped!


    I like stories to have callbacks. Erfworld needs all this buildup to make events like this believable.

    It's my opinion that Fate is really affected by 'The Little Things' most, and Predictamancers strive to alter those 'Little Things' to guide Fate.
    abb3w wrote:
    The main temple is toast, but panel 1 shows four ancillary structures still intact. I wonder if any of them might still have Thinkamancy functions; possibly one or more were prototypes?

    That said, definitelyat least one casualty and multiple incapacitations, with maybe more of the former and only one guaranteed survivor. However, I doubt that Wanda will get the Arkenpliers in time to be helpful; the Great Minds seemed to verge on "Plot Device" OP, and that's generally not the level of know-how you willy-nilly hand over to a Protagonist.

    On the other hand, if it turns out that Charlie has an arsenal of every sort of OP that's been discovered in the last 50000 turns... maybe.

    Shard wrote:
    3) Isaac just rolled well on string backlash. He is one of the brightest Great Minds.

    He goes all the way up to 11.

    Shard wrote:
    Although they should have suspected such, due to their knowledge of Archon-extended casting.. which is probably Dollamancy, actually.

    So, the Archons are Charlie's love dolls? Ewwww....

    Archons have Dollamancy abilities. It honestly seemed a bit odd at the time they were revealed, but.. yeah.

    Giving OP abilities to protaganists is generally fine if the story is ending. For example, TNO's name, the Rune of Torment, the Mac Guffin's ultimate power unleashed.. they can all occur at the tail end of a story.

    Also Charlie has the Arkendish, Wanda has the Arkenpliers for much of the story.

    And Charlie had to deal with the Arkendish and Arkenshoes with just Flower Power and Carnymancy. It was only when he got Thinkamancy then we won.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 243
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:16 am 
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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    Gathrun wrote:
    Lower right corner looks like roller hair girl. Tisha is smooshed, in the black dress. And Jintao. Not sure about the blue dress.


    From the jacket and jeans combo combined with the hair I was thinking that was "Alex". Or A.V. Club as the wiki calls her.


    Sorry, I mean the one under the rubble. Wasn't clear.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 243
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:19 am 
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    Gathrun wrote:
    JadedDragoon wrote:
    Gathrun wrote:
    Lower right corner looks like roller hair girl. Tisha is smooshed, in the black dress. And Jintao. Not sure about the blue dress.


    From the jacket and jeans combo combined with the hair I was thinking that was "Alex". Or A.V. Club as the wiki calls her.


    Sorry, I mean the one under the rubble. Wasn't clear.


    Ah. Upon re-reading, my mistake actually, I think

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 243
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:21 am 
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    Interjection Games wrote:
    Oof, that's going to leave a mark on the Hungry Jungle fanfics.


    I think it's going to leave a mark period myself. In fact i'd say the GM's have just discovered they've been fighting an Outside Context Problem.

    Ian.M.Banks Excession wrote:
    "An Outside Context Problem was the sort of thing most civilisations encountered just once, and which they tended to encounter rather in the same way a sentence encountered a full stop."


    Yeah there's survivors, but with the question of what if anything the temple did besides protect, and with their ability to do state 7 links ruined by the lack of adequate protection, they're powerbase and importance is smashed. They're going to have a lot of trouble recovering from this.

    Ironically though this removes one of the biggest hurdles in Parsons way. GG Charlie, well played.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 243
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:24 am 
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    kkdragonlord wrote:
    The GMTTA have been punished at last.
    The destruction of the Temple became the only appropriate response after the croaking of Ivan and Claude, the TGTTA showed their hand prematurely and revealed themselves to be a much greater imediate threat to CC than Parson, because the first chance they got to Remote Sever Charlie's string, they would take it.


    But that proves that as long as Charlie keeps his current strategy there won't be a chance to sever his string or else they would have already done it. It makes it seem that they can only remote-sever in the MK and Charlie ain't in the habit of going there.

    I think what moved him to action was the collection of: The new deal not allowing GM to scry under bedrock, Charlie's invasion of the MK and his following deceleration as OP which means his relations with (unaligned) free casters can't get any worse, and the Wonky Wrench being revealed by Ivan's escape which means he isn't tipping his hand with any new information.
    So it's a lot a small details that made this move very cheap for him.

    Shard wrote:
    I doubt Charlie can plan that far. I suspect that the GMs didn't know that Charlie could cast through dolls, which is an ability demonstrated by absolutely nobody through Erf. Although they should have suspected such, due to their knowledge of Archon-extended casting.. which is probably Dollamancy, actually.


    He didn't have to use a doll though, a proper Caster would have sufficed.

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