Forum    Members    Search    FAQ

Board index » Erfworld Things » Reactions




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 470 posts ] 
 
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 242
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:28 pm 
This user is a Tool! Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
Offline
Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 3:52 am
Posts: 234
Astelan wrote:
Depends on how quickly they can get that temple back up. Retconjuration seems out of the question, but although the thinkamancers weren't particulary liked, they seemed to be ok with the dirtamancers. This might be another thing that closes the bonds between the different groups of casters.

That seems highly unlikely to me. Those Who Matter are a rival political faction who just received significant concessions from the Great Minds the very night before their Temple was destroyed in an obvious Dirtamancy attack. And now they have to take the Dirties' at their word regarding their innocence after scrying was shut down? Fingers will be pointed and shots will be fired.

_________________
Image

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 242
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:35 pm 
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:56 am
    Posts: 881
    Morsious wrote:
    DVL wrote:
    EDIT: My bad, I'm actually apparently agreeing with Morsius.



    I have no idea what you originally said, but yay! Agreement! I hope it wasn't my bad Grammer causing confusion. I need to just stop foruming until my computer works again.


    Mainly that we can't have nice things because of white supremacists.
    Well okay, more that it's a sign that the just universe hypothesis is false.
    Just much snarkier.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 242
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:56 pm 
    User avatar
    Offline
    Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:14 pm
    Posts: 97
    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    Well, I could say that my genetic programming doesn't give me any choice other than to assert that all humans are racist as a result of their genetic programming.

    P.S. If anyone wants to delve into Chinese anger towards Japan, you could just Google it.


    Racism and "race" are cultural concepts. Genetically we are all homo sapiens, the thing you are trying to perform a fallacy of equivocation with is called speciesism. The genetics bullshit you are trying to pull, are pseudoscience, the same kind of pseudoscience that eugenics were based on.

    Only racists try to normalize racism.
    Stop being proud of your racism.

  • Tipped by 2 people!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 242
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:06 pm 
    User avatar
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user has been published! This user posted the comment of the month Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:36 am
    Posts: 3710
    kkdragonlord wrote:
    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    Well, I could say that my genetic programming doesn't give me any choice other than to assert that all humans are racist as a result of their genetic programming.

    P.S. If anyone wants to delve into Chinese anger towards Japan, you could just Google it.


    Racism and "race" are cultural concepts. Genetically we are all homo sapiens, the thing you are trying to perform a fallacy of equivocation with is called speciesism. The genetics bullshit you are trying to pull, are pseudoscience, the same kind of pseudoscience that eugenics were based on.

    Only racists try to normalize racism.
    Stop being proud of your racism.

    How ironic would his avatar be if he got banned?

    _________________
    I'm writing a fan fiction. It's called Murder in the Magic Kingdom. Check it out, if you'd like. Completed May 5th, 2015

    I'm writing a sequel! It's called Finding Sanctuary. Please do give it a look. Last updated December 1st, 2016.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 242
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:13 pm 
    Offline
    Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:50 am
    Posts: 14
    Well didn't this turn into a shitshow.

    Um.

    SO THAT IVAN + CLAUD BROMANCE, YOU GUYS. PRETTY AWESOME, RIGHT?

    Spin-off fan comic? About their early adventures? Any takers? Huh? Huh?

  • Tipped by 6 people!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 242
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:27 pm 
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 10:05 pm
    Posts: 497
    Website: http://lateralbreakdown.blogspot.com.au/
    Dante wrote:
    Astelan wrote:
    Depends on how quickly they can get that temple back up. Retconjuration seems out of the question, but although the thinkamancers weren't particulary liked, they seemed to be ok with the dirtamancers. This might be another thing that closes the bonds between the different groups of casters.

    That seems highly unlikely to me. Those Who Matter are a rival political faction who just received significant concessions from the Great Minds the very night before their Temple was destroyed in an obvious Dirtamancy attack. And now they have to take the Dirties' at their word regarding their innocence after scrying was shut down? Fingers will be pointed and shots will be fired.


    I thought the Minds were apart of Those Who Matter.

    _________________
    Save money, Pop an Heir! - My first ever fanfic attempt.

    My blog

  • Tipped by 1 person!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 242
     Post Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:48 pm 
    User avatar
    Offline
    Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:14 pm
    Posts: 97
    Morsious wrote:
    Some things get ruined by the association with negative things. The Nazi symbol was also a traditional good luck symbol of native americans. They don't use it anymore... the Hitler mustache was popular in the 20s. Before Columbine, you could wear trench coats to schools. I could go on.


    The Svastika is a good luck Indian symbol, from India, indian religions. Not native americans.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 242
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:19 am 
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:53 pm
    Posts: 34
    kkdragonlord wrote:
    Morsious wrote:
    Some things get ruined by the association with negative things. The Nazi symbol was also a traditional good luck symbol of native americans. They don't use it anymore... the Hitler mustache was popular in the 20s. Before Columbine, you could wear trench coats to schools. I could go on.


    The Svastika is a good luck Indian symbol, from India, indian religions. Not native americans.


    Its actually a symbol of many different religions, including, but not limited to, Buddism. It turns out that a very simple, common geometric shape can be used by more than 1 society at a time.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 242
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:21 am 
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2016 12:53 pm
    Posts: 34
    kkdragonlord wrote:
    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    Well, I could say that my genetic programming doesn't give me any choice other than to assert that all humans are racist as a result of their genetic programming.

    P.S. If anyone wants to delve into Chinese anger towards Japan, you could just Google it.


    Racism and "race" are cultural concepts. Genetically we are all homo sapiens, the thing you are trying to perform a fallacy of equivocation with is called speciesism. The genetics bullshit you are trying to pull, are pseudoscience, the same kind of pseudoscience that eugenics were based on.

    Only racists try to normalize racism.
    Stop being proud of your racism.


    As much as rebuttles to the troll disguised as Chiu ChunLing are welcome, try to be factual. Eugenics were based on real genetic science, nothing pseudo about it. It's immoral and horrifying, but scientifically correct. Think of it like this, a viable solution to wiping out HIV would be to kill everyone who is HIV+. Would it work? Yes. Should it be done? No. SCIENCE!

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 242
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:31 am 
    User avatar
    This user is a Tool! This user was a Tool before it was cool This user is a member of Team Erfworld IRC Quote of the Moment This user got funny with a rodent This user has been published! Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:30 pm
    Posts: 361
    Okay, with three reported posts by three different reporters in the last few hours, it's pretty clear this thread has gone way too far into dickery.

    You can talk about racism here. You absolutely can not be this ugly to one another. So everybody grab a Snickers. Re-establish a respectful tone of discussion, or I'm gonna start assigning month-off bans here, without individual warnings. :think:

  • Tipped by 3 people!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 242
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:37 am 
    User avatar
    Offline
    Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:20 pm
    Posts: 891
    My avatar already works on so many levels of irony that nobody would be able to comprehend how ironic it was if I got banned.

    It would be extra ironic if it got banned for a comment about how ironic it would be to get banned, though.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 242
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:38 am 
    Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit This user is a Tool! Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 4:35 am
    Posts: 15
    good lord I feel like my dad yelled at the noisy backseat of a long road trip. We'll be good.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 242
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:47 am 
    Has collected at least one unit Here for the 10th Anniversary
    Offline
    Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:59 pm
    Posts: 443
    OK Forum, what have we done that Rob is now debating the contract in comic? :-)

    (And is it really page 10 of the wonky trio already? :-)

    _________________
    (Bet limit: -180, Aug '16. Bal: 0.)
    "We will fire the unhappy until morale improves!"
    It really speaks to how awful RVC's plan is that immolating himself first would improve the odds of success.

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 242
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:47 am 
    User avatar
    This user posted the comment of the month Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
    Offline
    Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:33 am
    Posts: 519
    Location: Earth, Sol System
    kkdragonlord wrote:
    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    Well, I could say that my genetic programming doesn't give me any choice other than to assert that all humans are racist as a result of their genetic programming.

    P.S. If anyone wants to delve into Chinese anger towards Japan, you could just Google it.


    Racism and "race" are cultural concepts. Genetically we are all homo sapiens, the thing you are trying to perform a fallacy of equivocation with is called speciesism. The genetics bullshit you are trying to pull, are pseudoscience, the same kind of pseudoscience that eugenics were based on.

    Only racists try to normalize racism.
    Stop being proud of your racism.


    As much as I'm opposed to racism... you're wrong. There is a genetic component to the human behavior of being afraid of people that are different from one's self. That we haven't isolated exactly which gene or set of genes it is doesn't change that there is a large amount of evidence that the behavior is not cultural at all. But it is notable that this behavior is only the foundation of racism and in fact is also the foundation of many other -isms. Racism is one of the ways we humans try to justify our fear of people who are different by making it seem much more complicated and rational than it really is... just like we do with all our other instincts.

    That doesn't make racism a good, okay, or even tolerable thing. The argument that if something is natural it is automatically okay is one of those extremely ignorant "feel good" ideas that doesn't survive two minutes of critical thinking. Every time someone manages not to run some one off the road for cutting them off in traffic it proves that humans don't have to give into "natural" impulses.

  • Tipped by 4 people!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 242
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:18 am 
    User avatar
    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit This user is a Tool!
    Offline
    Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:35 am
    Posts: 1731
    Location: Wales... New South Wales
    greyknight wrote:
    elecampane wrote:
    At the very least he should be able to make a new raiment to make them not instantly recognizable as decrypted.

    <caster 1> "Hey! Decrypted casterrrrr!"
    <caster 2> "Can't be. She's wearing a white and yellow robe."
    <caster 1> "Oh. My mistake. Carry on."

    ManaCaster wrote:
    greyknight wrote:
    Oh, he just pokes them out again. Every morning for the past five hundredturns. It's a small price to pay.

    Decryption should have healed them, so not having natural eyes is probably his factory setting.

    He poked them out REALLY quickly in-between panels after being decrypted.

    (I can keep this up all day!)

    Now that you mentioned it, we do see him putting his glasses on post-poking.

    Axiom wrote:
    atteSmythe wrote:
    qualiyah wrote:
    One thing that struck me is, why is Charlie attacking the GMTTA now? Given that GK is his enemy, and Wanda is a huge part of what makes that enemy so powerful, wouldn't it make more sense for him to wait until after Wanda had been executed before causing chaos in the MK? After all, blowing up the temple surely risks giving her an opportunity to escape in the chaos. Even if he wanted to pin this incident on GK, it would make more sense to wait until after Wanda was dead before causing that much chaos.

    So the fact that he is attacking now seems like a point in favor of the theory that Charlie's plan is to get Wanda and all the decrypted on his team.

    Brilliant. Yes, the timing of this bothered me a bit, but I think you've hit the nail on the head: This is a victory gambit.

    It also ties up nicely another thing that's been bothering me: Why leave Ivan and Claud's bodies around? Because Charlie was planning on capturing Wanda and (somehow?!) the Pliers, and was going to decrypt them himself. He was leaving the units in play because he thought they'd be his again.

    It's still a long shot, but probably (before the fact anyway) a more certain possibility than GK sneaking the Pliers to Wanda while she was still a prisoner, then decrypting them early.

    Yeah, I like that a lot.


    The smart thing to do in this case would have been to have the golem push Claud and Ivan's bodies through the portal fragments before doing anything else. That would have removed any possibility of Wanda decrypting them before she's on your side.

    It's definitely a power move by Charlie, but I think it's extremely rushed and not overall his brightest plan.

    Has it occurred that Ivan and Claud are very heavy, and that the golem has scrawny tiny muscles incapable of lifting something twenty times its size?

    Freederick wrote:
    The contract language is "bodily harm". Immobilization, while it might cause psychological trauma, is very obviously not "bodily harm". Any lawyer would see it that way.

    So where did the penalty come from? It came from material harm, because the Wonky Wrench was, er, wrenched from the action figure and thus taken from CC.

    (why are we talking about the contract again?)
    The contract only refers to BODILY HARM in the case of JILLIAN. Also some would consider paralysis to be a form of bodily harm

    DVL wrote:
    Ansan Gotti wrote:
    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    It's far more important to me, at a genetically determined level, to get angry about whatever the Japanese and Koreans are doing than to care what European or African primitives think.


    "African primitives"??? Are you KIDDING?

    What in the booping world.

    Yep. Ever notice how he gets up into Jasper3rd's grill by trying to paint him as a hypocritic racist, promptly plays the "the racists are the real victims here card" and then promptly says racist things about himself and other people?

    Yeah. I just thought he was an uncharitable dick. He's also racist too. And he's too arrogant to ever change his ways.

    Putting it simply. Do not ever dignify him with a response. Do not entertain him or talk to him. He is unworthy of any respect. If he tries to make himself relevant, put him back down in his place.

    This is just some prime grade hot garbage.

    Isn't it lovely watching DVL and Ansom deliberitely misconstrue Chunling's comment?

    The answer is no. They're being twats.
    Zippy the Squirrel wrote:
    Edit: And yes, I agree with others in that there's a huge likelihood that Roger Clarence has survived this attack, and further predict that he will show his true colors (pun somewhat intended?) soon.

    Yes. Having an alibi qualifies as a "Huge likelihood" when it comes to surviving an attack.

    Vorteks wrote:
    What I want to know is: how did Claude and Ivan even know about the truce? Charlie shouldn't have been able to tell them, in just the same way that Parson is incapable of telling Transylvito; the contract requires non-disclosure. We know that becoming Gobwin Knob units doesn't automatically impart this information, because Lillith didn't know. Charlie could have told them when they were Charlescomm units, but that period was so brief I don't think he would have had a chance.

    The only explanations I can think of are either:

    1. Charlie did indeed tell them quickly after the turned to Charlescomm but before the Great Minds croaked them.

    2. Commander units with a sense of the treasury automagically know about truces their side signs, but other units don't. This would explain why Claude and Ivan know about the truce but Lillith didn't. But it then would raise the question of why Ansom didn't know Gobwin Knob and Transylvito were allies.

    Bonnie informed them.

    kkdragonlord wrote:
    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    Well, I could say that my genetic programming doesn't give me any choice other than to assert that all humans are racist as a result of their genetic programming.

    P.S. If anyone wants to delve into Chinese anger towards Japan, you could just Google it.


    Racism and "race" are cultural concepts. Genetically we are all homo sapiens, the thing you are trying to perform a fallacy of equivocation with is called speciesism. The genetics bullshit you are trying to pull, are pseudoscience, the same kind of pseudoscience that eugenics were based on.

    Only racists try to normalize racism.
    Stop being proud of your racism.

    And only Sith believe in Absolutes. Fight me.
    YOU QUIT BEING UNAUSTRALIAN! Foight me.


    And then Rob goes into moderator mode. Le sigh. I really shouldn't of waided through an additional ten pages of posts before anything. By the time I finished responding, some of this crap I say gets too hot.


    Last edited by Anomynous 167 on Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 242
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:24 am 
    User avatar
    Offline
    Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:20 pm
    Posts: 891
    It's true that "racism" is one of those words that has distinct meanings. Technically, it should only refer to an ideology in which one assigns significantly different attributes to different races. But that meaning has dropped mostly out of use and been replaced by the concept of people having any preference for people of their own 'race', however slight.

    The identification of in-group and out-group status indicators is too instinctive to humans to seriously call it cultural, but the idea of "race" applying to groups of people larger than the natural social group size of humans (about 150 primary adults) definitely cannot occur prior to the rise of civilization. So the idea of 'race' is culturally constructed, but the way people actually behave towards out-groups is more often dictated by instinctive tendencies than by formal ideological constraints.

    But the reason that people don't use "racism" to mean only formal ideological convictions about racial differences is because Western Culture largely dropped that before almost any of us were born. Yes, people of every 'race' think their race is the best...that's kinda why they identify as members of that 'race' (or what it means to identify as a member of a race). And plenty of other ideological categorizations of racial classes still exist.

    And it is wrong for people to be more concerned with 'race' than who individually does things that help them and those they personally know. Just because I'm Chinese, that doesn't mean I can't see that the murderous democide of tens of millions of Chinese people is more important than the racial identity of those committing it. I might like to see a Chinese face in a movie, all else being equal, but all else being equal is actually pretty rare.

    The 'white' American government did a lot of bad things to my ancestors, and a few things to me personally, but they are nowhere near the Chinese government in doing bad things, so my tiny preference for Chinese faces in charge can't begin to tip those scales.

    But for a lot of people it does. I think that's nuts, but there it is.

    Just like some people would rather berate us all for a reference to the 'controversial' nature of an Uncle Remus story than speculate on which of the GMTTA croaked and what the rest of the GM are going to do about it.

  • Tipped by 1 person!
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 242
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:28 am 
    Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit This user is a Tool!
    Offline
    Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:22 pm
    Posts: 839
    Has anyone considered this is a really clever play by charlie by making GK look like such big threats they have to invite him in to help protect. Does not charlie have a corollary about creating business is their business" or somthing?

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 242
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:35 am 
    Has collected at least one unit Here for the 10th Anniversary This user is a Tool!
    Offline
    Joined: Fri May 27, 2016 3:04 am
    Posts: 34
    I think this is definitely an attempt to pin the destruction of the Temple on GK, for... some reason. That's why the doll watching them was mentioned right before the Temple was destroyed.

    I think this is definitely not an attempt to recruit Wanda, and furthermore it wouldn't work if it was. Charlie doesn't want the Arkentools brought together, Wanda has a rapidly growing list of reasons to hate Charlie with a passion, and it would be easier and serve Charlie's goals better to just off her. The one thing that gives the theory merit is that it would be a payoff for the recent in-comic discussions about the loyalty of the Decrypted.

    _________________
    The End Is Nerf!

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 242
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:38 am 
    This user is a Tool! Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
    Offline
    Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 3:52 am
    Posts: 234
    Knavigator wrote:
    I thought the Minds were apart of Those Who Matter.

    I thought the joke was that their disciplines dealt primarily with the Matter axis. Roger presumably gets in on liaison capacity because of how powerful the Minds are. I guess that doesn't explain Abner, though. I'm still a bit lost as to how Healomancy doesn't cross the Life or Matter axis...

    _________________
    Image

  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 242
     Post Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:44 am 
    User avatar
    Offline
    Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:20 pm
    Posts: 891
    I'm sure that Charlie will try to pin the destruction of the Temple on GK (I mean, he definitely doesn't want to take the blame himself, right?) but the elimination of the GMTTA's ability to do high level trance fusion and remote string cutting and scrying and who knows what else was a primary objective in and of itself.

    Because Charlie had no way of knowing that Janis Stashed the 'pliers to Wanda to decrypt Marie, along with Ivan and Claud. He wouldn't have allowed that otherwise. He's just now finding out that Ivan and Claud got decrypted and are heading to the Dirtamansion to rescue Wanda.

    What would be funny is if his attempt to have Jojo lay the groundwork for another "GK did it" Carny show turns out delaying the Dirtamancers from going down and fetching Wanda just long enough for Ivan and Claud to rescue her first.

    I mean, Tondy wouldn't think that was really funny, but I would.

    P.S. I don't believe that pinning this on anyone else is even close to being a serious possibility. I'm sure Charlie would love to foment some more strife between the Dirtamansion and the GMTTA, but frankly they know they didn't do it and they'll be hell for leather as anyone to find out who did.

    P.S. Clevermancy doesn't alter the life, matter, or motion of things, it only works on what is already there. That's why Luckamancy can't create luck, it only borrows it. Healomancy restores and protects health, it doesn't confer new specials or whatever. Moneymancy lets rulers spend money more effectively, it doesn't seem to create schmuckers out of nothing.


    Last edited by Chiu ChunLing on Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
  • Tip this post

    Make Anonymous
  • Top 
       
    Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
     
    Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 470 posts ] 

    Board index » Erfworld Things » Reactions


    Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests

     
     

     
    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot post attachments in this forum

    Search for:
    Jump to: