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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 33
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 12:46 pm 
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effataigus wrote:
but I'm still curious why she thinks this.


Maybe, she has some visibility at the loyalty stat. Even if she can't see it directly, she might be able to sense their love for Wanda and other indicators.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 33
     Post Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:22 pm 
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    To my mind, there's plenty of reasons for Wanda to fear a decrypted chief warlord, first and foremost because their allegiance is to Wanda and not to GK. Wanda, don't forget, is apparently allied with GK by entirely choice even if she thinks of it in terms of destiny — unless her offer to turn to Faq was a bluff.

    Maggie may also fear that a decrypted warlord would be too deferential to Wanda. We've seen this is true: while Ansom strenuously disagreed with Wanda, he would not even go around her to appeal to Stanley.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 33
     Post Posted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:01 pm 
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    DevilDan wrote:
    Maggie may also fear that a decrypted warlord would be too deferential to Wanda. We've seen this is true: while Ansom strenuously disagreed with Wanda, he would not even go around her to appeal to Stanley.


    This is the crux of the matter. Making a decrypted CW means making Wanda the defacto CW, and that's how they got into the mess they're in now. Wanda went off book and now GK's former CW is in enemy hands. A decrypted as CW only offers a bonus, because Wanda is still the one forming strategies and calling the shots.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 33
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:09 am 
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    Several good points but Parson is still correct. They need the bonus. Decisions can be made by someone other than the chief. As far as we know Parson's rank or status does not effect his ability to think about strategy/tactics. Scarlet could be assigned CW and then Maggie could provide the mental link. Maggie could have "suggested" linking Parson with the new CW and tool leaving the room instead of "suggesting" that Parson become the new CW.

    It is still possible that Wanda and company are going to defect in mass to FAQ. Slatley might break the effect of the kingworld spell if he break his alliance with FAQ. Wanda and Jack have the problem that they are riding on Gobwin Knob dwagons. A chief warlord could form an alliance with FAQ. Maggie has been linked with both Jack and Wanda and probably knows a lot about how they think.

    I am not sure if we know detailed rules about forming alliances or what happens to mounts when alliances change or riders turn.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 33
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 3:40 am 
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    pSycHOtic chICkeN wrote:
    As far as we know Parson's rank or status does not effect his ability to think about strategy/tactics.

    This is the case in our world. In Erf, it might or might not change his ability to think, but it does change his obligation to think - the Chief Warlord has heightened duty.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 33
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:56 am 
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    pSycHOtic chICkeN wrote:
    Several good points but Parson is still correct. They need the bonus. Decisions can be made by someone other than the chief.


    This is true, in theory. However, it would require Stanley to be smart enough to order his new CW (and all other units) to act as if Parson was CW.

    Making Parson CW means that he will stay in charge, even if only through inertia. This gives a long term benefit, even if for this particular battle, it might be better to have Parson thinking of strategy only with another unit as CW.

    Also, any suggestions he makes would be formally considered advice. If Parson gave an order to a decrypted CW, it is quite possible that the CW would disregard it, if Wanda objected. At least with Parson as CW, his orders will be obeyed by the non-decrypted GK units.

    Quote:
    As far as we know Parson's rank or status does not effect his ability to think about strategy/tactics.


    It increases his duty to Stanley. This might increase his willingness to put effort into strategy.

    Quote:
    Maggie could have "suggested" linking Parson with the new CW and tool leaving the room instead of "suggesting" that Parson become the new CW.


    Maggie got 1 "nudge" (and even that is risky), making Parson CW gets the most bang for the buck.

    Stanley just isn't going to be able to handle non-traditional organisational structures.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 33
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:22 am 
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    Besides, I would guess Parson comes up with a new trick, that makes the CW bonus irrelevant, because they won't have to fight (for whatever reason). Most likely the strategy will be so shrewd that any conventional warlord would not allow it, like the Bogroll-surrender-trick, only nastier. I can't wait to see what it is.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 33
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:47 pm 
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    Maggie is balancing a lot of factors; long term vs. short term benefits, the increased time and effort it takes Parson to convince Stanley of something, the risk to her (and she is a valuable asset, so it's not just about her survival), and the loss of chief warlord bonus. The point is clear, though: an unfettered Parson means a fighting chance for Wanda and her troops, while a chief warlord bonus wouldn't. Parson as chief warlord is a game-changer. if troop numbers are additive and bonuses are multiplicative, let's just say that the Parson bonus is potentially off the charts.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 33
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:39 pm 
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    One really ugly choice would be to allow Jack to be decrypted to boost his juice.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 33
     Post Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:53 pm 
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    Parsons bonus isn't best described in numbers as compared to anyone else. It's best described in strategies. No one else would have thought of the idea of sniping siege with Dwagons, because losing battles is "bad". No one else would have thought of using Sizemore to turn the tunnels into a slaughter house because casters aren't used for combat, or played Ansom well enough to get him to commit his own troops down there. Then there is Parsons crowning moment of awesome, uncroaking the volcano. Parson is "the perfect warlord", not because he's got a bigger bonus then anyone else, but because tactically he's the most brilliant mind in Erf. He's the one that's going to think of using bubblegum and cwap as a shield, or uncroaking Dwagons through city zones (if possible), and causing mass destruction and chaos as a small horde of Dwagons suddenly get up in the middle of the enemy leadership/archers. These tactics (if they work) are going to be what wins this for GK.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 33
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:48 am 
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    Numbers are additive, bonuses are multiplicative, but Parson just reaches over and punches the other player in the face and steals his dice.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 33
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:10 pm 
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    Parson doesn't want to be Chief Warlord, because of Duty. Parson didn't want to uncroak the Volcano, but Duty compelled him to do it.
    Maggie on the other hand was compelled by Duty to mind control Stanly even though if she were wrong or failed she would disband.
    Parson is correct that the best chance Wanda's forces survive is if that stack has the Chief Warlord bonus...
    Maggie is also correct that having Parson as Chief Warlord makes the bonus obsolete. They may never have ended up in this position if Parson had still been chief warlord.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 33
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:17 pm 
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    robak wrote:
    Numbers are additive, bonuses are multiplicative, but Parson just reaches over and punches the other player in the face and steals his dice.

    That's an apt description.

    He already did the "tip the board over and throw all the pieces to the floor" move at the end of TBFGK.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 33
     Post Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:58 pm 
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    I think the most important thing at this point is that Parson is in complete command of the troops. He was able to help in an advisory role, but working through Stanley (as we've seen, he can make stupid decisions and disregard/reject parson's advice), Wanda (who is loyal to Fate magic and the Arkenpliars as we've seen, as well as loving one of the enemy commanders), and Ansomn (who is not only loyal to Wanda, but also, as described by Vinnie, has a Gump lodged up his keister :D ), his unique strategical style can be and was mangled. The benefit of this total control, as well as increased Duty as others have pointed out, is quite probably more valuable than having a +8 or so bonus to the Dwagon Riders.
    In summary, Maggie made the right choice.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 33
     Post Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:28 am 
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    I generally agree with the sentiments about Parson. Wanda is terribly competent, but often too smart for her own good. She got into trouble when she started acting like the Chief Warlord, doing major strategy herself instead of asking Parson, like she had been up to that point.

    She got into trouble in similar way when she cast that suggestion on Jillian in Book 1. Wanda cast the spell "Quite competently", in Maggie's words. But Wanda, not being trained as a thinkamancer, failed to shield herself from the shock when the link was broken.

    Being an academic, I get to work with a lot of really smart people, who produce the most exquisite ways to get themselves into terrible trouble.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 33
     Post Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:59 am 
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    Hmmm *thinking cap on*.... we've already determined that units with leadership can retreat from a battle. I would assume this applies to when it is not that side's turn. They are, I believe, one hex outside of Jetstone. Now, I would imagine that normally a unit with leadership doesn't bother retreating on its turn because the enemy would chase them down. However, it does not appear that in Erfworld's timestream that battles go on in multiple hexes at the same time; they are resolved automatically. So if Wanda's unit were to be attacked, if they were to retreat, say, into the city itself, a new combat would start that the previous attackers, i.e. Tramennis and Jillian, could not take part in. I don't think a lot of warlords would think of retreating INTO another enemy force. And Wanda has enough to curbstomp the capital. Even if they were going to sack the city and kill the king, they could instead hold it hostage until it was their turn and then fly away with a bunch of full-move dwagons, which would successfully save the entire leadership and caster group for Gobwin Knob. They'd have lost their entire decrypted army, but they'd have saved their dwagons and their warlords and casters, which I believe is the strategic goal at this point. The king is far too easy for Parson to manipulate to actually kill him at this point, not when he can be tricked into throwing away another couple coalition armies.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 33
     Post Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:17 pm 
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    Dwagon_Cwoaker wrote:
    Hmmm *thinking cap on*.... we've already determined that units with leadership can retreat from a battle. I would assume this applies to when it is not that side's turn.


    When it's not that side's turn, the units can't cross hex boundaries - sure, they're allowed to not fight units that enter their hex, they still can't leave though.

    Quote:
    They are, I believe, one hex outside of Jetstone.


    No, I think they're already over the city, in the airspace of Spacerock.

    Quote:
    And Wanda has enough to curbstomp the capital.


    She would have enough to sack the tower and kill the king... but she's stuck in the airspace zone and not the tower zone.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 33
     Post Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:39 pm 
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    Goshen wrote:
    I generally agree with the sentiments about Parson. Wanda is terribly competent, but often too smart for her own good. She got into trouble when she started acting like the Chief Warlord, doing major strategy herself instead of asking Parson, like she had been up to that point.

    She got into trouble in similar way when she cast that suggestion on Jillian in Book 1. Wanda cast the spell "Quite competently", in Maggie's words. But Wanda, not being trained as a thinkamancer, failed to shield herself from the shock when the link was broken.

    Being an academic, I get to work with a lot of really smart people, who produce the most exquisite ways to get themselves into terrible trouble.


    Old gamer saying: The intelligent person is able to get themselves out of situations that the wise person would never have gotten into in the first place.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 33
     Post Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:34 pm 
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    You know, why aren't they still using the eyebooks? I know Charlie has shown an ability to hack the eyebooks, but that would just make me suspicious of the security of plain ol' Thinkagrams with regards to Charlie. If I were in Parson's shoes, I would be introducing the magic of cryptography to Erf, or at least discuss the possibility.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 33
     Post Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:33 pm 
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    multilis wrote:
    One really ugly choice would be to allow Jack to be decrypted to boost his juice.
    Good, (or ugly), line of thinking.

    But if Jack gets that kind of re-charge from decryption, better to let him use up his juice as a living unit, then decrypt him once he's croaked.

    Aaaand we still don't know if a decrypted caster can still cast. :|

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