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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 205
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:30 am 
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eras10 wrote:
The only other reason to have sided with parson would be if a plan by Charlie to exterminate TV was already, unstoppably in motion. But DK has learned that it isn't.

Not at this very moment, at least. But Parson could argue that Charlie's still planning to conquer the entire world, and the only way for TV to survive long-term is to make sure Charlie gets taken out before he's ready to put his plan into motion. Who knows - it might even be true.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 205
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:44 am 
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    Ozamataz Buckshank wrote:
    and prisoners can't be Thinkagrammed.

    While I agree with your larger point, when Olive Branch was a prisoner, Jack and Jillian were worried about her receiving Thinkagrams. Jillian ordered her to sit up so her face could be seen, so that she could be sure Olive wasn't talking to Charlie.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 205
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:50 am 
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    There is a very good reason for Charlie to take out TV once Parson is gone. To get his money and guns back.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 205
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:26 am 
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    TV doesn't have any of Charlie's money. Don King didn't ask for money.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 205
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:36 am 
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    Free Radical wrote:
    Ozamataz Buckshank wrote:
    and prisoners can't be Thinkagrammed.

    While I agree with your larger point, when Olive Branch was a prisoner, Jack and Jillian were worried about her receiving Thinkagrams. Jillian ordered her to sit up so her face could be seen, so that she could be sure Olive wasn't talking to Charlie.

    Prisoners definitely can't receive Thinkagrams, because it's come up several times recently for obvious reasons, most recently when Bunny wasn't able to communicate with Parson during tea. Olive doesn't actually receive a Thinkagram, anyway, the characters just thought she might, and they might have just not known, since Faq didn't have a Thinkamancer. That or Rob just had a brain fart.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 205
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:55 am 
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    Ozamataz Buckshank wrote:
    Free Radical wrote:
    Ozamataz Buckshank wrote:
    and prisoners can't be Thinkagrammed.

    While I agree with your larger point, when Olive Branch was a prisoner, Jack and Jillian were worried about her receiving Thinkagrams. Jillian ordered her to sit up so her face could be seen, so that she could be sure Olive wasn't talking to Charlie.

    Prisoners definitely can't receive Thinkagrams, because it's come up several times recently for obvious reasons, most recently when Bunny wasn't able to communicate with Parson during tea. Olive doesn't actually receive a Thinkagram, anyway, the characters just thought she might, and they might have just not known, since Faq didn't have a Thinkamancer. That or Rob just had a brain fart.


    There was that time with the Archon that had been captured by Haggar, and could still transmit a Thinkagram to/from Charlie, but that could be 'dish hackery.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 205
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:59 am 
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    wih wrote:
    Ozamataz Buckshank wrote:
    Free Radical wrote:
    While I agree with your larger point, when Olive Branch was a prisoner, Jack and Jillian were worried about her receiving Thinkagrams. Jillian ordered her to sit up so her face could be seen, so that she could be sure Olive wasn't talking to Charlie.

    Prisoners definitely can't receive Thinkagrams, because it's come up several times recently for obvious reasons, most recently when Bunny wasn't able to communicate with Parson during tea. Olive doesn't actually receive a Thinkagram, anyway, the characters just thought she might, and they might have just not known, since Faq didn't have a Thinkamancer. That or Rob just had a brain fart.

    There was that time with the Archon that had been captured by Haggar, and could still transmit a Thinkagram to/from Charlie, but that could be 'dish hackery.

    They might not have captured her, just incapacitated her. There's also been at least two instances in this book where they've been able to get around that rule by using G-strings between units that created other units (Jed talking to Maggie, and the Maggie-Wanda link talking to Ansom); if Charlie's got something like that between him and his archons (which seems likely), he'd be able to get around it, too.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 205
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:03 am 
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    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    TV doesn't have any of Charlie's money. Don King didn't ask for money.


    Exactly. Don asked for Charlie to not do something that Charlie never had any intention of doing anyway. In return, Don gives Charlie exactly what Charlie wanted.

    Good trade, Don. Good trade.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 205
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:36 am 
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    Ozamataz Buckshank wrote:
    Free Radical wrote:
    Ozamataz Buckshank wrote:
    and prisoners can't be Thinkagrammed.

    While I agree with your larger point, when Olive Branch was a prisoner, Jack and Jillian were worried about her receiving Thinkagrams. Jillian ordered her to sit up so her face could be seen, so that she could be sure Olive wasn't talking to Charlie.

    Prisoners definitely can't receive Thinkagrams, because it's come up several times recently for obvious reasons, most recently when Bunny wasn't able to communicate with Parson during tea. Olive doesn't actually receive a Thinkagram, anyway, the characters just thought she might, and they might have just not known, since Faq didn't have a Thinkamancer. That or Rob just had a brain fart.

    Bunny's a special case. She's a baddie.

    Also Parson likely couldn't hear Bunny since, as a non-Transilvitian unit, he wasn't on the same channel as everyone else.
    Bunny never spoke to Vanna, even back when she wasn't a prisoner.
    Zeal wrote:
    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    TV doesn't have any of Charlie's money. Don King didn't ask for money.


    Exactly. Don asked for Charlie to not do something that Charlie never had any intention of doing anyway. In return, Don gives Charlie exactly what Charlie wanted.

    Good trade, Don. Good trade.

    It was a good trade. Don still has his neck, and his low low prices has garnered customer loyalty from Charlie.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 205
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:43 am 
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    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    Ozamataz Buckshank wrote:
    Prisoners definitely can't receive Thinkagrams, because it's come up several times recently for obvious reasons, most recently when Bunny wasn't able to communicate with Parson during tea. Olive doesn't actually receive a Thinkagram, anyway, the characters just thought she might, and they might have just not known, since Faq didn't have a Thinkamancer. That or Rob just had a brain fart.

    Bunny's a special case. She's a baddie.

    Also Parson likely couldn't hear Bunny since, as a non-Transilvitian unit, he wasn't on the same channel as everyone else.
    Bunny never spoke to Vanna, even back when she wasn't a prisoner.

    It says right on the page Parson's prisoner status was the problem. "Gotti glanced over at Bunny, which was something he did a little too much for Caesar's liking. The thing was, Bunny couldn't say anything back. She could send to the table, but with Gotti being a prisoner, he couldn't receive it."

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 205
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:27 am 
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    I think Don is mistaking temptation for a reward here.
    He already admitted that Vanna was a perfect poisoned apple to give him, but here he is, taking another bite.

    It might work out, in the end, and i really want to see Vanna try to turn Parson (been waiting for it from the moment Vanna arrived in TV), but i suspect it will all go horribly wrong, and end with Jillian attacking TV.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 205
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:39 am 
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    the_fire_brigade wrote:
    Count_to_10 wrote:
    Ozamataz Buckshank wrote:
    I think Loyalty is probably not a stat at all, and in fact is exactly the same as it is in real life. Parson's Klog on the matter says it's a stat, but he had that explained to him by Erfworld units, who have their whole worldview contextualized by stats. They wouldn't be able to conceive of it not being a stat, and his information even says it's unknowable.

    I wouldn't rule out Loyalty actually being a hidden stat -- combat results are determined by attack and defense stats and die roles, not the normal physical mechanics that they would be in our world, so loyalty may be the same.


    Remember how Clay Dice described probabilities and die rolls in Book 0. To quote, “The dice describe the world. They don‘t determine it. A Mathamancer can tell you how many dice will be rolled, how many points‘ll be lost when you‘re wounded. He‘ll tell you what‘ll probably happen, and possibly happen, and what can‘t happen. But your choices still make it happen.” He seems to suggest that stats are like stupidworld characteristics/traits, simplified versions of complex organic processes (though usually with more accuracy and reliability it seems). If you take Loyalty and Combat as analogous, like you did, then loyalty is the complex and personal thing that it is in real life, represented by a stat.

    If that was the way it worked, then Luckamancy wouldn't do anything, and Fate wouldn't be screwing around with odds. If the stats were only descriptive, then the base stat numbers would be bouncing up and down all the time depending on circumstance, or Mathemancy predictions would be simply false. No, it is very clear that the physics of the world conform to results dictated by their simplified game-like mechanics.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 205
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:40 am 
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    Count_to_10 wrote:
    the_fire_brigade wrote:
    Count_to_10 wrote:
    I wouldn't rule out Loyalty actually being a hidden stat -- combat results are determined by attack and defense stats and die roles, not the normal physical mechanics that they would be in our world, so loyalty may be the same.


    Remember how Clay Dice described probabilities and die rolls in Book 0. To quote, “The dice describe the world. They don‘t determine it. A Mathamancer can tell you how many dice will be rolled, how many points‘ll be lost when you‘re wounded. He‘ll tell you what‘ll probably happen, and possibly happen, and what can‘t happen. But your choices still make it happen.” He seems to suggest that stats are like stupidworld characteristics/traits, simplified versions of complex organic processes (though usually with more accuracy and reliability it seems). If you take Loyalty and Combat as analogous, like you did, then loyalty is the complex and personal thing that it is in real life, represented by a stat.

    If that was the way it worked, then Luckamancy wouldn't do anything, and Fate wouldn't be screwing around with odds. If the stats were only descriptive, then the base stat numbers would be bouncing up and down all the time depending on circumstance, or Mathemancy predictions would be simply false. No, it is very clear that the physics of the world conform to results dictated by their simplified game-like mechanics.

    Here's the thing, the "base stat numbers" do infact, bounce around depending on circumstances.

    At the start of a race, a certain horse has 20 to 1 odds of crossing the finish-line in first. Halfway through the race, all the other horses die in a freak car crash (it happens... in horse races). That one particular horse now has its chances of crossing the finish line first boosted to 1 to 19, meaning if you had entered the wager mid-way through the race on that horse's side you wouldn't make nearly as much money.
    But, 60 feet before it can reach the finish line, the four horsemen of the apocalypse arrive on the scene bringing doom and despair to all, while also taking the first four positions in the race. Should you be a betting man (I won't judge... the apocalypse is happening in this scenario), that one particular horse will have no chance of crossing the finish line first, since the race is already over.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 205
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:55 am 
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    Anomynous 167 wrote:

    Here's the thing, the "base stat numbers" do infact, bounce around depending on circumstances.

    In Erfworld, though, they don't. Each unit has an exact attack, defense, and number of hits. In the absence of things that specifically give them bonuses, the odds of one beating the other are always the same, regardless of all kinds of real-world differences that would otherwise change the odds. More over, things that have no physical baring, such as which of several warlords is designated as chief far away in a capital you are out of communication with, effect the odds of which of two identical stabbers wins a fight.
    The material world in Erfworld clearly acts as an effect of an underlying casual physics of stats and rolls, not the other way around.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 205
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:33 am 
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    Ozamataz Buckshank wrote:
    Now come on. This is epilectic trees territory. For Charlie to do that, first he'd have to be capable of long-range Foolamancy. No indication he can do something like that. Second, he'd have to know Vanna is being offered a position in Transylvito. No way for him to know that, since the offer came over meatspeech, not Thinkagrams, Don wouldn't tell Charlie, and prisoners can't be Thinkagrammed. And lastly, he doesn't not sense her with his ruler sense. What he doesn't know is why she's running away, at least not immediately.


    Minor nitpick, but Charlie has already thinkagrammed a prisoner before. Even if Charlie didn't contact her after Don asked her to turn (we aren't really told how long it took... in fact, we don't know if prisoners can "get Charlie's attention" the way they would with a regular thinkamancer) he certainly could have given her a few contingency plans sometime beforehand. Heck, in the time Don and Caesar were arguing Vanna could have contacted Charlie from her cell!

    And yes, this is a distinct possibility, especially if, as a unit of FAQ (unit under FAQ anyway) Jillian could sense her upkeep and thus sense it disappear as Vanna turned. Jillian then, in a panic and/or rage (take your pick) calls Charlie and Charlie then does his thing.

    You are right about the first and third points, especially the third, I suspect/hope that Bunny will be able to clear this up a bit, even if Turnamancers can "turn on a dime" that doesn't mean that they can hide their true motives... from a master class thinkamancer.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 205
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:41 am 
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    Count_to_10 wrote:
    Anomynous 167 wrote:

    Here's the thing, the "base stat numbers" do infact, bounce around depending on circumstances.

    In Erfworld, though, they don't. Each unit has an exact attack, defense, and number of hits. In the absence of things that specifically give them bonuses, the odds of one beating the other are always the same, regardless of all kinds of real-world differences that would otherwise change the odds. More over, things that have no physical baring, such as which of several warlords is designated as chief far away in a capital you are out of communication with, effect the odds of which of two identical stabbers wins a fight.
    The material world in Erfworld clearly acts as an effect of an underlying casual physics of stats and rolls, not the other way around.

    "No physical baring", I beg to differ. Depending on their level, the chief warlord can make a huge difference in that fight.
    Count to 10 wrote:
    Anomynous 167 wrote:

    Here's the thing, the "base stat numbers" do infact, bounce around depending on circumstances.

    In Erfworld, though, they don't. Each unit has an exact attack, defense, and number of hits. In the absence of things that specifically give them bonuses, the odds of one beating the other are always the same, regardless of all kinds of real-world differences that would otherwise change the odds.

    But isn't that the same in real life though?

    Two stabbers, Jim and Bean are equally matched. The odds of Jim beating Bean at the start of the fight is 1:1.
    Time passes, Bean manages to get the first strike. The odds of Jim winning is now lower, since conditions within the fight have changed. The dramatic condition in this case being the number of hits Jim has.

    I think I'm getting my realities mixed up.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 205
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:15 am 
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    Ozamataz Buckshank wrote:
    It says right on the page Parson's prisoner status was the problem. "Gotti glanced over at Bunny, which was something he did a little too much for Caesar's liking. The thing was, Bunny couldn't say anything back. She could send to the table, but with Gotti being a prisoner, he couldn't receive it."

    We've got counterexamples mentioned already where prisoners are able or expected to be able to receive Thinkagrams, so Bunny not being able to casually send them to Parson could be explained by restrictions caused by being a baddie that wouldn't normally apply.

    From that quote, it could also just be sending "to the table" that didn't include Parson because he's a prisoner, with casual phrasing by Caesar that she "couldn't say anything back", when he meant "couldn't say anything back without sending a full Thinkagram to the prisoner", which is possibly a bit more juice-intensive than strictly necessary for small-talk with Parson.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 205
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:16 pm 
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    J wrote:
    I can't be the only one that sees something wrong with Vanna's face in the last panel.

    Image

    HER EYES TURNED WHITE. Why is nobody freaking out!?


    Art error. It's corrected. :stanley:

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 205
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:26 pm 
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    Free Radical wrote:
    Ozamataz Buckshank wrote:
    It says right on the page Parson's prisoner status was the problem. "Gotti glanced over at Bunny, which was something he did a little too much for Caesar's liking. The thing was, Bunny couldn't say anything back. She could send to the table, but with Gotti being a prisoner, he couldn't receive it."

    We've got counterexamples mentioned already where prisoners are able or expected to be able to receive Thinkagrams, so Bunny not being able to casually send them to Parson could be explained by restrictions caused by being a baddie that wouldn't normally apply.

    From that quote, it could also just be sending "to the table" that didn't include Parson because he's a prisoner, with casual phrasing by Caesar that she "couldn't say anything back", when he meant "couldn't say anything back without sending a full Thinkagram to the prisoner", which is possibly a bit more juice-intensive than strictly necessary for small-talk with Parson.

    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book+3/7

    The entire reason Maggie links with Wanda is to communicate with Ansom, because he can't receive thinkagrams as a prisoner.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 205
     Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:37 pm 
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    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    Count_to_10 wrote:
    Anomynous 167 wrote:

    Here's the thing, the "base stat numbers" do infact, bounce around depending on circumstances.

    In Erfworld, though, they don't. Each unit has an exact attack, defense, and number of hits. In the absence of things that specifically give them bonuses, the odds of one beating the other are always the same, regardless of all kinds of real-world differences that would otherwise change the odds. More over, things that have no physical baring, such as which of several warlords is designated as chief far away in a capital you are out of communication with, effect the odds of which of two identical stabbers wins a fight.
    The material world in Erfworld clearly acts as an effect of an underlying casual physics of stats and rolls, not the other way around.

    "No physical baring", I beg to differ. Depending on their level, the chief warlord can make a huge difference in that fight.
    Count to 10 wrote:
    Anomynous 167 wrote:

    Here's the thing, the "base stat numbers" do infact, bounce around depending on circumstances.

    In Erfworld, though, they don't. Each unit has an exact attack, defense, and number of hits. In the absence of things that specifically give them bonuses, the odds of one beating the other are always the same, regardless of all kinds of real-world differences that would otherwise change the odds.

    But isn't that the same in real life though?

    Two stabbers, Jim and Bean are equally matched. The odds of Jim beating Bean at the start of the fight is 1:1.
    Time passes, Bean manages to get the first strike. The odds of Jim winning is now lower, since conditions within the fight have changed. The dramatic condition in this case being the number of hits Jim has.

    I think I'm getting my realities mixed up.

    On Warlords, that's the point: even though they have no communication with the units in question, and thus no material effect on how they fight, weather the Chief Warlord is level 1 or level 10 has a large effect on the odds of who wins the fight between Jim and Bean.

    On the other hand, you can name all kinds of thing that you would expect to affect the odds of a real world fight (down to what each ate for breakfast) that will not affect an Erfworld fight, simply because there is no bonus attached to them.

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