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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 28
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:29 pm 
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Um.. what you couldn't understand?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 28
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:26 pm 
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    homeosapiens wrote:
    why would Wanda bother picking Webinar?


    Did you see the look on Ansom's face when he saw who it was? Wanda was rubbing his face in it, just like how she treats Ansom as her personal pet to taunt Jillian while she keeps the rest of the Decrypted more or less at arm's length.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 28
     Post Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:33 pm 
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    I don't think we know anywhere near enough about the hard numbers to go shooting down one grand plan in favor of another. One panel detailing a bonus or two could blow all manner of spec right out of the water. As such, I think it's safer to assume that the characters know more than we do in some instances, particularly in regards to the relative strength of stacks and units-- After all, TBFGK took a big turn when the RCC was suddenly able to merely match GK in dance fighting ability. We don't even know for sure how megalogwiffs and dwagons stack up against eachother.

    I will point out one thing though: from a simple logistics angle, yes, the TV Stack o' Doom(bats) strategy is quite powerful, but it's heavily dependent on the warlord leading the bat brigade, which REALLY cuts down on its flexibility relative to other flying units in a kill-the-leader situation. For example, a Donut of Doombats simply wouldn't be as effective as Parson's dwagon based Donut of Doom unless you have warlords to spare. This is because unled doombats are weaker than even basic infantry while dwagons are still dwagons and thus are a credible threat even when they're not tied to the Chief Warlord's apron strings. Caesar can't be everywhere at once and if the bats need someone on the level of a Chief Warlord to be truly dangerous that could spell trouble. For example, what happens if GK engages Caesar while having Wanda bug out with another group? Can TV really split forces into multiple hexes and still have enough oomph to take out Wanda with whatever units they can get to her? That's real hard to guarantee, particularly when you remember that Caesar couldn't pin down and croak Stanley, and Stanley isn't exactly a Parson or even Ansom when it comes to tactics, Jack or no Jack.

    Again, I totally understand why someone's first instinct would be to croak Wanda ASAP. But as I have said before, attacking is only a token gesture if you don't have the horses. In that light, I can totally understand why the RCCII's plan might be to weather the storm from a place of strength and hope for a shot at a later date. A bad hope is better than no hope at all.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 28
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:14 am 
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    homeosapiens wrote:
    Um.. what you couldn't understand?


    Where do I start?

    Basically it read like:

    "Wolves are like dogs, but dogs are like dogs, so therefore: kittens".

    The poor spelling and grammar did nothing to enhance comprehension, either, so maybe it's just a communications issue, but it really seems like there's alot of really weird logical leaps in your argument that make absolutely no sense.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 28
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:07 am 
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    I had a bit of trouble with the post as well, but I believe he was referencing TBFGK #116 and the fact that you can uncroak a unit and get something that still has a semblance of its original properties-- for example, it's been shown that an uncroaked warlord can still function as a Leader, albeit in a somewhat limited capacity. Still, we can't say with any certainty which matters more: the original strength of the unit being uncroaked or the amount of effort the croakamancer put into the uncroaking. For all we know the strength of the original unit mostly just sets an upper limit on how powerful the resulting uncroaked unit can be. That said, it certainly is possible that a level 5 uncroaked warlord would be stronger than a level 3 uncroaked warlord even if the Croakamancer put a minimal amount of time and juice into uncroaking both of them. In the end, we simply aren't in any position to just eyeball the relative strength of many of these units. Uncroaking just introduces yet another variable into the mix.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 28
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:28 am 
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    DoctorJest wrote:
    "Wolves are like dogs, but dogs are like dogs, so therefore: kittens".


    DoctorJest, if I weren't referentially married to my sig I'd use that instead.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 28
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:55 am 
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    Okay... this page is amazing. I can't put my finger on why, but everything about it is just amazing. The dialogue, character interactions, and art are just phenomenal.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 28
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:28 am 
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    homeosapiens wrote:
    http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F116.jpg
    It is not stated strictly. It is said that undead resemble their orginal strenht closer when you pay more attention. Contrary logic is that they resemble their orginal power less when you pay less attention. So weekest kind of undead is the one that resembles orignal power in the least. That's rather a valid theory, but still theory. It fits more than say, every unit is same strenght when you mass animate it, becouse why would Wanda bother picking Webinar?

    I think what he's trying to propose is that all uncroaked possess strength based on the original unit, but the before/after ratio grows more favorable when more attention is spent. IE, Webinar and a Piker from the tunnel forces may both be at only 40% of their original strength, but if Webinar was as strong as three pikers before uncroaking he's as strong as three pikers now (although the absolute difference would have shrunk).

    What it sounds like he's saying, though, is that original power grows less relevant when less attention is spent - this would be the case if uncroaked are created with strength in a spectrum between a basic generic zombie at worst and the original unit at best (rather than 1% of original strength at worst and 100% at best). Also possible, but a slightly more complex formula. These may come down to the same thing at lower values of attention spent if there's a fundamental stat minimum in erfworld.

    I think the more important reason for picking him is that he's a warlord, though. Wanda gave her stack a caster type bonus, Webinar gave it a leadership bonus, much like Wanda and Ansom stacked bonuses in that one text update.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 28
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:02 am 
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    Reclaimer wrote:
    Did you see the look on Ansom's face when he saw who it was? Wanda was rubbing his face in it, just like how she treats Ansom as her personal pet to taunt Jillian while she keeps the rest of the Decrypted more or less at arm's length.


    WhileWanda's use of Webinar was clearly psyops, I don't think Wanda's treatment of Ansom is. Ansom was the FIRST decrypted and you never forget your first. Also Wanda knows that Ansom is good in a fight. Lastly Jillian has not been around to be taunted by Wanda. In fact Wanda left Ansom behind (A better decision than it first apeared) when she found out Jillian was in the area.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 28
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:25 am 
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    DoctorJest wrote:
    "Wolves are like dogs, but dogs are like dogs, so therefore: kittens".


    I understood what he said pretty well, and it was nothing like that.

    It's more like this:

    Let's say that you're scavenging on a modern-day battlefield, looking for weapons, vehicles, anything you can use, and you come across a fairly large group of disabled vehicles. Not complete wrecks by any means - they can be fixed, after all - but by no means intact.

    Let's also assume that you have a limited amount of time to effect whatever repairs you need to make in order to get these vehicles up and running again.

    Sure, you could spend a lot of time doing semi-proper repair work and have a handful of vehicles that would run for a good long time . . . or you could do a slapdash, duct-tape-chewing-gum-and-baling-wire job on a lot more vehicles (just barely enough to get them up and running again - and they'd probably start breaking down again fifty or so miles down the road).

    That's essentially the situation Wanda was facing, albeit with croaked RCC troops instead of disabled vehicles:

    "Do I go for quality work and get a small group of long-lasting units, or do I go for quantity work and get a boopton more units that will fall apart on me?"

    Obviously, she went for quantity over quality - GK didn't need a few good-quality units, they needed a boopton of cannon fodder.

    (As for uncroaking Webinar? I actually doubt that was a conscious choice on Wanda's part - he was just affected by her Trioxin mass-uncroaking spell, though putting uncroaked!Webinar on the front lines might have been her choice.)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 28
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:26 pm 
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    DoctorJest wrote:

    The poor spelling and grammar did nothing to enhance comprehension, either, so maybe it's just a communications issue, but it really seems like there's alot of really weird logical leaps in your argument that make absolutely no sense.

    Thank you very much for that. I ll try better next time.

    So you rather believe all trioxin uncroaked are same strenght? Than is your right.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 28
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:03 pm 
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    Perhaps the two warlords were still level 5 and a level 2 warlord even if they were as weak as every other thing in the tunnels.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 28
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:13 pm 
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    In TBFGK Stanley used uncroaked warlords as warlords, so the bonus probably stays on. And given this, Webinar was probably the better unit among the trioxin mass uncroaked units. (at 5% of his initial strenght maybe, but anytime better than a 5% of a random uncroaked piker)

    and again, I can't wait to see what's next. ...Will Ansom turn into a pile of dust?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 28
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:51 pm 
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    HandofShadows wrote:
    WhileWanda's use of Webinar was clearly psyops, I don't think Wanda's treatment of Ansom is. Ansom was the FIRST decrypted and you never forget your first. Also Wanda knows that Ansom is good in a fight. Lastly Jillian has not been around to be taunted by Wanda. In fact Wanda left Ansom behind (A better decision than it first apeared) when she found out Jillian was in the area.


    She definitely used Ansom as a "carrot" during the beginning of their parley ("If you'd care to surrender, I can certainly arrange to reunite you."), she's just prudent enough not to wave that particular carrot in Jillian's face, as that's a very good way to lose a hand. Unlike Jillian, though, Ansom's strength is finesse rather than unchained aggression, so making him angry made him make mistakes, or at the very least forced his hand.

    If you make Jillian angry, she just beats you down with a buster sword.

    randomstar wrote:
    In TBFGK Stanley used uncroaked warlords as warlords, so the bonus probably stays on.


    The other Uncroaked Warlords were made with a lot of juice; they lasted many, many turns and probably retained close to their full Leadership bonus, yeah. I dunno if her Dollar Store Zombies would retain such abilities as Leadership though considering they needed to have their hands held by Maggie during their fighting retreat, rather than leaving it up to the bunch of Uncroaked Jetstone warlords among their ranks.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 28
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:03 pm 
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    homeosapiens wrote:
    Why Charlie's archons are this powerfull? Cause they get to fight all the time and they level a lot. And Charlie can pop them really fast.
    Let's get the last sentence out of the way first: Popping them fast doesn't make them powerful, that just makes Charlie powerful.

    What makes Archons powerful is that they seem to have any ability needed at the time. At least this was the way they were portrayed in TBfGK. In TBfGK Archons were nigh invincible except against uncroaked volcanoes. In LiaB we have seen one crushing defeat for a small force of Archons, 4 Archons against a Chief Warlord and a hex full of Warlords, archers, and other troops.

    In TBfGK, however, Archons demonstrated the following powers:
    Flight;
    Power Beams of differing types;
    Thinkagrams;
    The uncanny ability to arrive where they were needed exactly when they were needed (We saw two examples of this: Ansom decides to contract with Charlie, and Archons shown in mountainous terrain are suddenly above Ansom's forces; Charlie asks Parson how many Archons he'd need to take out the GK garrison and the next turn that many fly into GK airspace.)
    More than enough potency to blast a Master Class Croakamancer and a stack of flying uncroaked, killing all of the uncroaked and critically wounding the caster. When it's not their turn, by the way;
    The ability to see magical compulsions (on Jillian);
    The ability to dispel those compulsions via a pep-talk;
    The ability to see through veils (on Bogroll);
    The ability to grant dance fight capabilities to forces who were described as being incapable of dance fighting;
    And they can fetch you your carpet even when they have zero move.

    I may have missed some, since the list is so long. But in short, the Archons in TBfGK had the power of plot: They had whatever ability was needed at the time, regardless of whether the readers had been given any inclination that they possessed this capability. They were in essence a flying Deus ex machina, capable of solving any plot issue which needed solving.

    The Archons have been less of a spoiler in this Book, which is a very good thing. But then again, Charlie has been trying very hard to operate only through puppets in order to keep his involvement a secret. Now that he has been revealed to both Jetstone and Haggar this may change.

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    So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 28
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:21 pm 
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    Alexei P wrote:
    Also: "WISH"? Another great sound effect!
    Not much discussion about this. My take was that is was Jillian's wish to cut Stanley in two, as she does to his face on the banner.

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    Zeroberon wrote:
    So we know with 100% certainty that THIS IS HOW TRI-LINKS WORK, PERIOD END OF STORY.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 28
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:11 pm 
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    Oberon wrote:
    homeosapiens wrote:
    Why Charlie's archons are this powerfull? Cause they get to fight all the time and they level a lot. And Charlie can pop them really fast.
    Let's get the last sentence out of the way first: Popping them fast doesn't make them powerful, that just makes Charlie powerful.

    What makes Archons powerful is that they seem to have any ability needed at the time. At least this was the way they were portrayed in TBfGK. In TBfGK Archons were nigh invincible except against uncroaked volcanoes. In LiaB we have seen one crushing defeat for a small force of Archons, 4 Archons against a Chief Warlord and a hex full of Warlords, archers, and other troops.

    In TBfGK, however, Archons demonstrated the following powers:
    Flight;
    Power Beams of differing types;
    Thinkagrams;
    The uncanny ability to arrive where they were needed exactly when they were needed (We saw two examples of this: Ansom decides to contract with Charlie, and Archons shown in mountainous terrain are suddenly above Ansom's forces; Charlie asks Parson how many Archons he'd need to take out the GK garrison and the next turn that many fly into GK airspace.)
    More than enough potency to blast a Master Class Croakamancer and a stack of flying uncroaked, killing all of the uncroaked and critically wounding the caster. When it's not their turn, by the way;
    The ability to see magical compulsions (on Jillian);
    The ability to dispel those compulsions via a pep-talk;
    The ability to see through veils (on Bogroll);
    The ability to grant dance fight capabilities to forces who were described as being incapable of dance fighting;
    And they can fetch you your carpet even when they have zero move.

    I may have missed some, since the list is so long. But in short, the Archons in TBfGK had the power of plot: They had whatever ability was needed at the time, regardless of whether the readers had been given any inclination that they possessed this capability. They were in essence a flying Deus ex machina, capable of solving any plot issue which needed solving.

    The Archons have been less of a spoiler in this Book, which is a very good thing. But then again, Charlie has been trying very hard to operate only through puppets in order to keep his involvement a secret. Now that he has been revealed to both Jetstone and Haggar this may change.

    In the summer updates, their powers are slightly more constrained - a potential combination of thinkamancy, foolamancy, shockamancy, dollamancy, dance fighting and leadership, as well as natural flight. Presumably the 3 archons intially hired by RCC 1 were high level, and had several "specials" accumulated. They're still extraordinarily powerful, but everything they did is explicable within these constraints:

    Flight - natural flight
    Power Beams of differing types - shockamancy
    Thinkagrams - thinkamancy
    The uncanny ability to arrive where they were needed exactly when they were needed (We saw two examples of this: Ansom decides to contract with Charlie, and Archons shown in mountainous terrain are suddenly above Ansom's forces; Charlie asks Parson how many Archons he'd need to take out the GK garrison and the next turn that many fly into GK airspace.) - they have huge move, their turn comes before RCC 1, and Charlie has them stationed at posts all across Erf. Due to the relative nature of time between hexes, they can appear to have "teleported" in, and there were presumably enough posts within range to allow Charlie to readily concentrate forces at GK
    More than enough potency to blast a Master Class Croakamancer and a stack of flying uncroaked, killing all of the uncroaked and critically wounding the caster. When it's not their turn, by the way; - shockamancy, and Wanda was in their hex and zone - see the "active hex" theory of off-turn casting, discussed elsewhere (any caster could have cast off-turn in a similar situation). Also, there were 30+ archons focusing fire on Wanda's stack, and yet she seemed to be able to shield herself from the brunt of the damage (but not the falling damage)
    The ability to see magical compulsions (on Jillian); - thinkamancy
    The ability to dispel those compulsions via a pep-talk; - it may be thinkamancy, or it may have just been an inherent quality of the spell - the target had to justify their obedience to the spell - if the action was unjustifiable, or, perhaps, if the target was made aware of the spell, it might have been broken
    The ability to see through veils (on Bogroll); - foolamancy
    The ability to grant dance fight capabilities to forces who were described as being incapable of dance fighting; - a combination of dance fighting, foolamancy and leadership, which only a small subset of archons possessed
    And they can fetch you your carpet even when they have zero move. - any flying unit could have done this - the carpet was at one point in the GK airspace zone, and they just moved it to another point in the GK airspace zone - no move required. Presumably Ansom had to expend move when he re-mounted


    Another power that you didn't mention was their wardrobe changing, in preparation for the dance fight battle at the pass - this was presumably dollamancy. I don't know if their dollamancy extends to the manufacture/healing of cloth golems (which comprise a significant portion of Charlie's defenses), or if Charlie contracted out to have them made.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 28
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:42 pm 
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    Even if it's within the constraints, it's still pretty bad that this unit has as much as they do. You have tough, fast, flying, ranged warlords with dollamancy, foolamancy, shockamancy, and thinkamancy. Archons are pretty much the uber-unit, blowing dwagons out of the water in versatility alone. The raw numerical comparison between them and dwagons (attack/defense/hits) is unknown and only guessed to favor the dwagons; because otherwise the dwagons are Erfworld's Worf

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 28
     Post Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:43 pm 
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    Sonic Screwdriver wrote:
    Even if it's within the constraints, it's still pretty bad that this unit has as much as they do. You have tough, fast, flying, ranged warlords with dollamancy, foolamancy, shockamancy, and thinkamancy. Archons are pretty much the uber-unit, blowing dwagons out of the water in versatility alone. The raw numerical comparison between them and dwagons (attack/defense/hits) is unknown and only guessed to favor the dwagons; because otherwise the dwagons are Erfworld's Worf

    Maybe dwagons were meant to outnumber archons, rather than just overpower them one on one - Charlie can only produce 1 to 1.5 per turn - we don't know if he could produce more if he had more cities, or if, even if he did have more cities, he can only spawn them at the capital. Stanley, now that he's been taught to use his hammer properly, can get 2 to 5 per turn, through the combination of taming and popping dwagons from his lvl 3+ cities, and the more he conquers, the higher his production rate becomes. Also, with his cities presumably producing income, he doesn't need to be as schmuckers-driven as Charlie is to sustain his army (and that's not even considering the potential use of decryption). Higher level archons can probably take down (uninjured?) dwagons one on one, but I doubt they could take on two or more at once.

    Also, does Stanley have control over the color of dwagon his cities pop, or is it determined randomly?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 28
     Post Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:00 am 
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    Oberon wrote:

    Quote:
    In TBfGK, however, Archons demonstrated the following powers:
    Flight;
    They can fly.

    Quote:
    Power Beams of differing types;
    Thats there attack there a ranged unit.

    Quote:
    Thinkagrams;
    A thinkamancy ablity

    Quote:
    The uncanny ability to arrive where they were needed exactly when they were needed (We saw two examples of this: Ansom decides to contract with Charlie, and Archons shown in mountainous terrain are suddenly above Ansom's forces; Charlie asks Parson how many Archons he'd need to take out the GK garrison and the next turn that many fly into GK airspace.)
    Large movement and Charlie had them in position. Doomabts could to the same.
    Quote:
    More than enough potency to blast a Master Class Croakamancer and a stack of flying uncroaked, killing all of the uncroaked and critically wounding the caster. When it's not their turn, by the way;
    They didn't actually hit Wanda, she took falling damage from a head first dive and was probably moving very quickly already. The archons managed to take out three uncroaked fliers, and two of the weakest undead. So with 30 archons thats like nine to a unipegatur and another for each rider. It looks like it takes about 9 archersto croak a dwagon. And since unipegaturs are definitly weaker than dwagons... err... thats not really impressive.

    Quote:
    The ability to see magical compulsions (on Jillian);
    Its an ablity from thinkamancy. Comes with the thinkagrams.

    Quote:
    The ability to dispel those compulsions via a pep-talk;
    I'm pretty sure anyone could do this no magic required. Well if you know about the spell of course.
    Quote:
    The ability to see through veils (on Bogroll);
    Foolamancy; comes with the viels.
    Quote:
    The ability to grant dance fight capabilities to forces who were described as being incapable of dance fighting;
    This is a shiny combination of magic, other casters can do this as well.
    Quote:
    And they can fetch you your carpet even when they have zero move.
    This is a function of flying, nothing special at all.

    Quote:
    I may have missed some, since the list is so long. But in short, the Archons in TBfGK had the power of plot: They had whatever ability was needed at the time, regardless of whether the readers had been given any inclination that they possessed this capability. They were in essence a flying Deus ex machina, capable of solving any plot issue which needed solving.

    The Archons have been less of a spoiler in this Book, which is a very good thing. But then again, Charlie has been trying very hard to operate only through puppets in order to keep his involvement a secret. Now that he has been revealed to both Jetstone and Haggar this may change.
    In the first book we didn't know what they could do. So it seemed like they could do anything. In this one we know their ablities, and we also know most of them can't do everything. Archons also don't get all of the six possible ablities. only a few.

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