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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 25
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:27 pm 
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SteveMB wrote:

Sammy also revealed much more than Charlie wanted (unless there's a deeper level of his agenda yet to be seen) -- directly mentioning Charlie's involvement, and making it obvious that Charlie was coercing Haggar. That may serve to reinforce the Royal side's distrust: though it's convenient now to send somebody else into the meatgrinder, the fact that Charlie did that to one Royal side raises the question of who's next.


Charlie's concern is not letting GK, (by inference Parson) know he's involved in this fight, getting Sammy to do his fighting meets his needs. However p'd off Sammy is he's not likely to go charging into battle yelling "Charlie's making me do this, sorry" now is he?
As I said before, Sammy is just too dumb to take credit for doing something he has no choice in. Haggarians better hope King Dickie has a long reign, because their chances of continued independence under King Sammy are severely limited.

Also Charlie will not try to grab Ansom. After going to all these lengths to hide is role the sudden appearance of a squadron of Archons would be a dead giveaway, and for what? a Zombie Warlord you suspect your main ally has a crush on? not worth it.

I understand that many see Charlie as the Bad Guy, but can someone explain to me when Charlie lied to or cheated any of his clients?
He may be economical with the truth but when has he flat out lied? Someone in his business cannot afford to cheat clients, but he will abide absolutely to the letter of his contact, and if that leaves a loophole, well, they should have read the fine print. e.g. Ansom getting croaked because he didn't buy spell detection
(Ever seen the movie Bedazzled - the Peter Cook, Dudley Moore original is better - man sells his soul to the devil in exchange for 10 wishes which never quite work out the way he wants because he is never specific enough)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 25
     Post Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:33 pm 
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    gazes_also wrote:
    I understand that many see Charlie as the Bad Guy, but can someone explain to me when Charlie lied to or cheated any of his clients?
    He may be economical with the truth but when has he flat out lied? Someone in his business cannot afford to cheat clients, but he will abide absolutely to the letter of his contact, and if that leaves a loophole, well, they should have read the fine print. e.g. Ansom getting croaked because he didn't buy spell detection.


    Similar logic all but destroyed the US economy. He creates situations and forces people to sign before they have a chance to read. He's a dirty opportunist and although not a liar, he's crooked as they come, gleefully disregarding the spirit of the contract, using intimidation to guarantee service and strategically price-gouging when he wants out of a commitment.


    Last edited by Reclaimer on Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 25
     Post Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:37 pm 
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    How Parson saves the day (assumes Charlie is bluffing)

    Parson to Sammy: Why don't you break coalition and join us.

    Sammy to Parson: Because Charlie will take my Capital

    Parson to Sammy: No he is bluffing- I just checked my bracer and he has a 0.04% chance of taking your capital next turn

    Sammy to Parson: Well why should I- I could just croak your side here

    Parson to Sammy: Because if you turn to my side everyone will think Charlie arranged it and turn against him

    ---

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 25
     Post Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:45 pm 
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    Reclaimer wrote:
    gazes_also wrote:
    The Decrypted Archons treat GK as Full-service clients - not as if they were Charlie. If push comes to shove, I suspect Charlie could still assert control over them


    Correction: The decrypted Archons treat Parson and all other GK warlords as full-service clients*. The conversation in which this was revealed was purely in reference to the fact that they'd never served beneath a warlord (AKA middle management); nothing is stated on how they feel towards Wanda (A caster, and their own personal Jesus) or Stanley. They certainly don't seem to long for Wanda's touch or anything but I suspect she's replaced Charlie by and large, and the fact that they view most of GK's command structure as clients is somewhat ominous in regards to Wanda's rather ambiguous goals. Since they are prone to screwing over their own clients as much as possible.

    *Edit: This also implies that anyone who has paid for Full Service could get all of the information from an Archon that Parson also received. Food for thought, to those who think Charlie's so concerned about an information leak that he'd throw so much into closing it up so late in the game.


    So maybe they do see Wanda the same way they used to see Charlie. But Wanda is so focused and narrow-minded it would never occur to her ask them the right questions even if they did know anything and would be compelled to tell her. So Parson doesn't have the leverage, and Wanda doesn't have the curiosity: after all, she sees Charlie as a longterm ally, so she can't know of some Terrible Secret. There is no leak because the decrypted Archons have nothing to leak.

    He is curious as to what happened to them because of the risk of it happening to others and the need for countermeasures to protect his assets

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 25
     Post Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:52 pm 
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    gazes_also wrote:
    He is curious as to what happened to them because of the risk of it happening to others and the need for countermeasures to protect his assets


    The best countermeasure would be to croak Wanda and lock the 'Pliers up in a vault that even Danny Ocean can't get into. And we do know he wants to do at least one of those things for sure.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 25
     Post Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:01 pm 
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    Charlie can't attack Haggar for a simple reason. he is a mercenary, who is going to hire him if he start to attack sides on his own initiative rather than because someone paid him to do it?

    If you are a mercenary start to fight for yourself is bad for business.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 25
     Post Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:31 pm 
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    why is sammy going along with this?

    if haggar is in a bad position now, how is throwing away their main force against GK going to help them? i don't think sammy would trust charlies word that he won't attack haggars capital if his stack does what he says.

    then again, there's always the possibility that his orders arne't to attack gk, but to reinforce them

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 25
     Post Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:35 pm 
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    Thydron wrote:
    why is sammy going along with this?

    if haggar is in a bad position now, how is throwing away their main force against GK going to help them? i don't think sammy would trust charlies word that he won't attack haggars capital if his stack does what he says.

    then again, there's always the possibility that his orders arne't to attack gk, but to reinforce them


    ...No. Just no. Whether or not Sammy believes that Charlie will hold off, he doesn't have much choice. If he obeys then all of Haggar might disband, if he disobeys then all of Haggar will certainly disband. And sending Haggar to reinforce GK is going against everything that Charlie has been working for.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 25
     Post Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:36 pm 
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    sebastian wrote:
    Charlie can't attack Haggar for a simple reason. he is a mercenary, who is going to hire him if he start to attack sides on his own initiative rather than because someone paid him to do it?

    If you are a mercenary start to fight for yourself is bad for business.


    True, but if you're Haggar do you want to take that risk? It's easy for us to metagame based on all the aspects of the story that we've seen & know about, but if you're Prince Sammy and you call Charlie's bluff and Charlie actually makes good on his threat...you're booped in the booper.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 25
     Post Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:08 pm 
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    Thydron wrote:
    why is sammy going along with this?

    if haggar is in a bad position now, how is throwing away their main force against GK going to help them? i don't think sammy would trust charlies word that he won't attack haggars capital if his stack does what he says.

    then again, there's always the possibility that his orders arne't to attack gk, but to reinforce them


    Charlie could have made an explicit contract, as legally binding as any of Charlie's contracts. "Do what I say and I won't capture your capital, sign here."

    Quote:
    I understand that many see Charlie as the Bad Guy, but can someone explain to me when Charlie lied to or cheated any of his clients?
    He may be economical with the truth but when has he flat out lied? Someone in his business cannot afford to cheat clients, but he will abide absolutely to the letter of his contact, and if that leaves a loophole, well, they should have read the fine print. e.g. Ansom getting croaked because he didn't buy spell detection
    (Ever seen the movie Bedazzled - the Peter Cook, Dudley Moore original is better - man sells his soul to the devil in exchange for 10 wishes which never quite work out the way he wants because he is never specific enough)


    You made the analogy yourself - Charlie is like the devil, he'll do exactly what he says but that won't necessarily be what you THOUGHT he said.

    Charlie's the classic example of lawful evil. He never breaks his contracts and always keeps his word, and never lies to or cheats his clients. He just finds ways of screwing them over without actually lying. That's still being a bad guy.

    ("Charlie's rule number something: We are in the business of solving problems for our customers. Corollary: Creating problems for our customers creates business.") The archons have explicitly been told to find ways to screw over their customers without actually breaking any contracts.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 25
     Post Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:08 pm 
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    I still put more faith in a LE character than a NE/CE character. Or a CN character for that matter.

    I think there may be one more motive that Charlie might be looking at. Lets say Ansom is brought to join FAQ. Is he still a decrypted unit? If so, there's no cost and all that jazz. in which case, the archons that have been turned are possible gold mines for Charlie (who uses almost all of his money on them). Even if he does have an upkeep cost, this still means its possible to turn decrypted, which is a big question.

    I also don't think Charlie's orders are a move made in anger. Sure torture is horrible, but in Erfworld it heals next turn. This move reminds me of a friend of mine. He enjoys doing this sorta thing, where once someone thinks they are more powerful than him, he likes to show them exactly how wrong they are and turn the tables. Charlie is a business man first and knows that he'll lose Haggar's money. but he got Haggar to work for him, now and its not like they were using him now anyways. How much worse can business get for him? His main buyers are nations at war. GK won't hire him and the Royal side also won't hire him. His only income would be from neither side. If he pisses off the Royals because they think he supports toolism, then oh well, nothing has changed. If they decide he's supporting them, then he might get offers, which he won't accept cause that would reveal to Parson that he's working against them

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 25
     Post Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:33 pm 
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    I just noticed that those two warlords look a bit like Wolfgang and Eddie Van Halen. Looked back a few pages I see that sure enough the drummer...er, warlord in the back looks a bit like Alex. I wonder if the new non-heir royal warlord is named David Lee. Would be a bad omen. For Sammy.

    I think the warband might need a new front man soon.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 25
     Post Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:50 pm 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Battle Crest Pins Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
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    Reclaimer wrote:
    The best countermeasure would be to croak Wanda and lock the 'Pliers up in a vault that even Danny Ocean can't get into. And we do know he wants to do at least one of those things for sure.


    I am sorry this does not exist we all know that Danny would take it down on principal. Never disrespect Mr. Ocean he knows everyone you know and they like him better.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 25
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:04 am 
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    Hey, Just noticed the Haggar symbol on one of the background infantry's shirts in panel 4...
    now is it just me, or is that tower suggestive of something?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 25
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:16 am 
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    First wave. Wonder why?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 25
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:26 am 
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    Charlie seems to be slipping up here. Jillian might have well said, "I'm totally working with Charlie!", when she said no comment; oh, and she somehow knew that Charlie wanted to hit the ground column. And probably every unit of Haggar knows who is directing the battle, if they don't get a wipe of GK here Charlie's "secret" will be revealed; assuming Sammy doesn't say something like, "Sorry, we can't accept the alliance offer because Charlie made us a deal we can't refuse, but we would really like one after all this nastiness is resolved."

    So Parson will soon have confirmed pretty soon Charlie is heavily working against GK, and he is hiding it.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 25
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:53 am 
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    After a bit of thought I don't think Sammy will have a chance to join GK because they won't let him through out of fear that he will break alliance and join GK. Look at the shock on the Jetstone warlords when Sammy tells them he is working for Charlie . . .to them Charlie is the enemy. They will assume this is a trick and that he will cross the bridge and break treaty- reinforcing GK enough to help them survive and possibly take the capital on their next turn.

    I think jetstone won't let Sammy through and this will harm their efforts to croak Wanda. Some of them will reinforce their capital and damage Wanda's stack somewhat but leave GK in a perilous position form which they can nonetheless rebound and threaten to take the capital.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 25
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:38 am 
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    Fug wrote:
    After a bit of thought I don't think Sammy will have a chance to join GK because they won't let him through out of fear that he will break alliance and join GK.

    Who ended GK's turn to save the royal bacon? Jetstone knows enough to put 2 and 2 together now - Charlie.

    IMO the biggest danger to Charlie is he may become seen as even bigger threat than GK, and Parson seen as valuable to fight against Charlie. Charlie has managed to alienate almost every royal side at one time, eg Jetstone charged through nose, TV offer they couldn't accept and now Hagar.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 25
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:08 am 
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    multilis wrote:
    Fug wrote:
    After a bit of thought I don't think Sammy will have a chance to join GK because they won't let him through out of fear that he will break alliance and join GK.

    Who ended GK's turn to save the royal bacon? Jetstone knows enough to put 2 and 2 together now - Charlie.

    IMO the biggest danger to Charlie is he may become seen as even bigger threat than GK, and Parson seen as valuable to fight against Charlie. Charlie has managed to alienate almost every royal side at one time, eg Jetstone charged through nose, TV offer they couldn't accept and now Hagar.


    I think if Tremmenis was in charge of Jetstone you might be correct but he is not- Slately is, and he seems like a paranoid pompous idiot who is currently angry at Jillian for showing him up and then being difficult and will want to put her in her place to compensate for nearly getting dusted without her help. Thats just my take on how he is and how people like that react. Also they have no idea who Parson is; the idea that they would work with Parson, an unknown warlord from an enemy side who just made an abomination of their chief warlord also seems unlikely.

    Of course we know Charlie is worried about the new titanic mandate and wants GK to get hurt but they do not, and remember they really think Charlie is on GK's side- they already knew they couldn't trust Sammy and they may see this as his move to get them after they fight Wanda's forces. I don't see that changing no matter what Jillian tells them and would not be surprised if they turn on her.

    I think this also makes sense from a plot point of view- we know their is some predictomancered chaos on the way for this battle and Parson may end up taking part in it (which would be facilitated if Jillian absconds with Ansom either after battle with GK or getting thrown out of the RCC for fraternizing with the enemy) it took a long time to build up to this battle-too long to resolve in a few pages- and think it will occupy most of the current book. That has been a problem with most of our previous predictions- we thought this battle would be resolved in a few strips but it seems more like it will be the major event in book 2.

    Anyhow those are my ideas for how this will resolve and I look forward to reading others.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 25
     Post Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:11 am 
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    Quote:
    I think if Tremmenis was in charge of Jetstone you might be correct but he is not- Slately is, and he seems like a paranoid pompous idiot who is currently angry at Jillian for showing him up and then being difficult and will want to put her in her place to compensate for nearly getting dusted without her help.


    Honestly, I don't see why people are so hard on Slately. Alright, so he does appear a bit pompous and not the most likable of characters, but near as I can tell all he did to earn everyone's ire was accuse Jillian of trying to sell him out-which she did! Seems his biggest crime so far is being a good judge of character.

    Well, you can count me among those mystified by the supposed significance of this page. I've been skipping the text updates for two reasons: One, I find it simply jarring reading about the characters and story from a third-person narration (reminds me of fan fiction), and two because the text updates seem to deal a lot with character's thoughts and inner monologue, which, though theoretically interesting, I actually think weakens the story overall. Reading only the comics, we rarely know what anyone is thinking and must make judgments about them based solely on their words and actions. This is particularly important here in Book 2, where trust and loyalty are major themes.

    But now apparently I'm missing something (not quite sure what, although the chat here more or less fills me in). I could be annoyed, but in all I'll simply trust that in the end it'll probably turn out to be not terribly important after all. Even if that's not the case, well, it is my decision to skip the text, so I can hardly demand that the writer cater solely to my preferences, even if I do think it would make for a better comic.

    On a side note, Tramennis is starting to grow on me, I like his general tone of being very aware that he's in over his head but trying to weather it all.

    I wonder a bit about the level of power that Charlie apparently wields. Between manipulation and outright intimidation he seems to be able to push virtually anyone around that he wants, and neither he nor his forces have any obvious vulnerabilities. The fact that he's not the supreme ruling power in Erfworld when it seems like he could be suggests either A) That he's somehow not as tough as he seems, B) That he has some much more subtle plan in action, or C) That he's a narrative tool for the writer to use whenever something improbable needs to happen.

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