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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 22
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:18 pm 
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Again, spending multiple turns' worth of juice is a turnamancer ability. The link-up is what allowed her to cast a big high-level Side-affecting spell.

Nothing says Charlie can't be a caster. Evidence points toward him being a caster, I'd say. 'Unparalleled mastery over thinkamancy' suggests he has *some* command of thinkamancy on his own. Nobody would says Stanley has unparalleled mastery of Shockmancy or Carnymancy or whatever we think the Hammer is tied to, but we could say that about Wanda. Charlie is an overlord, so he could be a caster that ascended. Also, this jives with the 'Charlie freed me' comment since in any link-up it is the thinkamancer who governs the binding and unbinding. At the end of book one, they fetched more thinkamancers to untie Sizemore/Wanda/Maggie.

I really don't understand the non-tinfoilhat speculation about who Jillian wants to turn. There's no question that it is NOT Wanda, Jack, or Ossomer. Jillian doesn't much care about how the battle goes for its own sake, and Ansom is the only person nearby who she has any connection to. Something like turning Vurp - which is admittedly a clever play if it works out and she knew to do so via Charlie's guidance - would only be done as part of a tricky trick to turn the tide of the battle, and she's already spent her major Screw You Wanda card. I think she's fairly satisfied with that & content to let her sort out the rest of her own mess.

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The question is getting Wanda to honor the offer. They could keep going back and forth: offer, honor, offer, honor....
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 22
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:33 pm 
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    Kizmet wrote:
    Predicting that Jillian will try to turn a high level Archon... just to see if it is possible and what effect it has on the decrypted. Then she will know if Ansom can be saved. If the archon goes poof, I expect her to attack/capture the bridge army. If the archon is turned, I expect her to attack/capture the bridge army. Either way, she marches to war at the bridge... which means RCII might lack the brute strength needed to kill Wanda this turn (especially if Jillian refuses to use her troops in the garrison).


    That is interesting however I would think that if you wanted to try that on an unit, you wouldn't necessarily need to do that on a high-level unit. She could try to do that on a lower level decrypted if she wanted and still get the same results presumably.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 22
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:21 pm 
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    I think she's turning the king /B-P

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 22
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:24 pm 
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    The set up is clearly that Jillian is going to try to turn Ansom, anything else would be a huge HUH? and need a lot of explaining.
    She says explicitly it's not Wanda, Jack or Ossomer, she has Tram and his force hold at the bridge, so logically she's going there and wants the back-up.
    The question is if she does turn him, then what? If she does turn him, she turns him back to Jetstone. It gives her closure with him as she feels she owes him but now realizes he was a Royalist snob just like his father and she has out grown him. She gives him to Slately in exchange for the respect due her as queen of Faq.

    I think we will find out in due course that Jillian and Faq are much more significant that they have so far appeared. Faq was a kingdom that stayed hidden for hundreds of turns under Banhammer. This means that Faq, and it's population functioned and thrived without going to war with anyone. If there is to be an end to war on Erf, this has to be significant; what was Banhammer's secret?

    What we don't know is - what's Charlie's angle? He has one, he didn't do the Time Warp out of the goodness of his heart. He still wants Parson, this is an ideal opening for him. I think the next text update is going to be an eyebook chat between Charlie and Parson. Demanding one of his calculations would help throw GK command even further off balance. How many Archons would it take to grab Parson right now anyway?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 22
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:14 pm 
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    I'd just like to remind everybody trying to figure out who else Vanna was linked with that links work with just two casters. Remember last summer? Maggie and Sizemore linked to rebuild Gobwin Knob? We have no reason to believe there was a third person. She didn't reanimate a volcano and croak a few thousand people, she just ended someone else's turn.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 22
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:54 pm 
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    You can't turn a Ruler. That doesn't make the least bit of sense. Turnamancy specifically modifies loyalty. Loyalty is a unit's devotion to its ruler. Rulers have Duty, which is its devotion to the side it governs. If I were a Ruler out and about anywhere and I ever met a Turnamancer, knowing that she could singlehandedly END my ENTIRE SIDE, I would nuke the crap out of her. It's just not gonna work that way.

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    SteveMB wrote:
    The question is getting Wanda to honor the offer. They could keep going back and forth: offer, honor, offer, honor....
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 22
     Post Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:19 pm 
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    gazes_also wrote:
    I think we will find out in due course that Jillian and Faq are much more significant that they have so far appeared. Faq was a kingdom that stayed hidden for hundreds of turns under Banhammer. This means that Faq, and it's population functioned and thrived without going to war with anyone. If there is to be an end to war on Erf, this has to be significant; what was Banhammer's secret?


    No, Faq didn't go to war before. It just offered itself as a mercenary force while hiding its true side. That's how they made money beyond whatever the side got from their sources of income they had (mines, if I remember correctly). It's not like Faq made war with anyone, but it certainly helped itself to the task of carrying out wars started by everyone else for its own profit. That was Banhammer's "secret".

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 22
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:11 am 
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    1. Hopefully Jillian will abduct Ansom, and then offer to trade him back to Wanda if Wanda will get a hair cut.

    2. Somebody somewhere (basically) said that Erfworld sucked because KINGWORLD was a gamebreaker, and that ERFworld has 100 gamebreakers. My response is that if there are 100 gamebreakers, they really aren't game breakers. That's part of the game.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 22
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:13 am 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    If Ansom were an unthinking zombie, that would make perfect sense. And he wouldn't be a character anymore.

    But he is. Although under the control of Wanda (which was gained in battle fair and square), he chaffes at her orders. We're being egged on to believe that this will turn out to matter at some point. And we're also encouraged to believe that at least some of Ansom's attitudes and such are his own. He loves his family still, for one.


    Oh I know, I was just saying units and such in Erfworld often aren't quite as "free" to follow their own motivations and objectives as characters elsewhere, and I just used Ansom since he is the most fleshed out decrypted so far.

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    I guess we'll see what unfolds later on, but I kinda hope for this whole turning thing to fail and get over already so that we can resume proper story.


    I guess we don't have to wait long. I am curious as to how it will work out, thinking on it, since we don't have much info on the mechanics of turning beyond three real examples:

    1. In book one Jillian hopes Jack will turn, which seems to suggest a unit can turn of its own free will.

    2. Duncan Scone being turned, which shows a unit can be turned, in this case through some Turnamancy application and

    3. Jillian asking Wanda to turn. When Wanda says no Jillian misinterprets it as meaning she wants to but can't, thus bringing up the turnamancer, which suggests a unit can want to turn, but can be unable to without help.

    I'm guessing (probably wrong, but oh well), on reflection, a Turnamancer has a spell for turning units, but it only has a reasonable chance of success if the unit already wants to turn/has low loyalty or they are being subjected to unpleasantness in the dungeon to make them more susceptible to turning.

    Of course that doesn't mean it will 100% fail if cast on a unit in battle, but it is highly unlikely it will succeed (factors like the units loyalty/lv making it even less or slightly more likely to succeed). Which begs the question why Jillian wants to give it a try at all...

    Heh, maybe Wanda' talk of fate struck a cord, and Jillian can give something unlikely to succeed (but not impossible) a shot, and then see how Wanda rationalizes it away if it works. Or at the very least it might be worth trying to take away one of the carrots/sticks Wanda can use against Jillian (leaving just Wanda herself).

    davesnothere wrote:
    Parson only spoke to Ansom of RC1 via thinkagram. And by the time he "appeared" and faked the surrender with Bogroll, Vinnie and Jillian were off at the FAQ pass.
    Any RC1 personell present at that battle is either croaked or decrypted.


    After Wanda finished the dungeon session with Jillian we see her telling Jillian about the Ultimate Warlord spell Stanley had her cast... I'd think, unless Wanda wiped he mind or something, Jillian should be aware of Parson's origin (which I imagine is known only to GK-ers and the casters who created/sold the scroll), though not of how successful he was, or even if he is still alive, unless Charlie didn't fill her in. Plus as Raza said Vinnie also knew he existed though he wouldn't know much more then that.

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    Last edited by Dancing Cthulhu on Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 22
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:16 am 
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    Joe Falco wrote:
    No, Faq didn't go to war before. It just offered itself as a mercenary force while hiding its true side. That's how they made money beyond whatever the side got from their sources of income they had (mines, if I remember correctly). It's not like Faq made war with anyone, but it certainly helped itself to the task of carrying out wars started by everyone else for its own profit. That was Banhammer's "secret".

    Similarly, Charlie has probably never technically gone to war with anybody.



    Also, do we really know that Turnamancy affects loyalty? Yes, we know Jillian implied that Vanna could break Stanley's "crazy loyalty hold" over Wanda, but does that necessarily require affecting her loyalty? That seems to bring Turnamancy too close to Thinkamancy, especially since Turnamancy has nothing to do with the Life and Fate axes of magic.

    What if all Turnamancy affects is which side controls you - e.g. let's say Wanda is a GK unit with 10 loyalty to GK and 1 loyalty to Faq (I'm assuming you have loyalty to specific sides - otherwise a unit would just automatically defect at the first enemy encounter the moment it's generalized "loyalty" score dropped low enough), and after being turned she just becomes a Faq unit with 10 loyalty to GK and 1 loyalty to Faq. Of course she would try to return to GK as soon as possible, but if you dragged her out of the hex quickly enough and did some dungeon work on her (probably sped up a bit by the Turnamancer), you could try and shift her loyalty balance.

    Turnamancy wouldn't necessarily seem so overpowered then - it could just be thought of as a tool for efficient capture of units. Unless the turned unit's loyalty to its original side was extremely low, it wouldn't betray its former allies right away - you'd have to quickly take it away and do some work on it to make it truly "yours."

    If Turnamancy actually does affect loyalty, then Turnamancers would operate as slightly slower, more expensive versions of the Arkenpliers - the downside is that the turning is limited by juice, and the turned units cost upkeep, but the upside is that if the turned unit dies, it becomes uncroakable, rather than turning to dust.

    I'm sort of basing this speculation on Sammy's surprise that Ossomer was converted right away. It couldn't have been too surprising if Sammy just rationalized it as using the pliers to mimic Turnamancy.

    Another possibility is that turning only operates on units with low loyalty, but if this were the case, Sammy shouldn't have seemed so surprised. Sammy seems to be a typical royal heir/chief warlord, and he would probably have thought of Ossomer as a typical royal heir/chief warlord - they tend to have incredibly high duty and incredibly low loyalty - e.g. Sammy's arguments with King Dickie, and the coup attempts by Don King's heirs, and what everyone assumes was Stanley's assassination of Saline IV.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 22
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:43 am 
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    gazes_also wrote:
    The set up is clearly that Jillian is going to try to turn Ansom, anything else would be a huge HUH? and need a lot of explaining. She says explicitly it's not Wanda, Jack or Ossomer, she has Tram and his force hold at the bridge, so logically she's going there and wants the back-up.


    Well stated, I agree.

    Quote:
    The question is if she does turn him, then what? If she does turn him, she turns him back to Jetstone. It gives her closure with him as she feels she owes him but now realizes he was a Royalist snob just like his father and she has out grown him. She gives him to Slately in exchange for the respect due her as queen of Faq.


    Huh? Ansom was always a "royalist snob." Jillian was never under any impression otherwise, see page 95 of book 1. Jillian still loved him inspite of this. And if Jillian has done any growing up, which I haven't seen convincing evidence for, it makes her closer to Ansom's rigidity, not further.

    Quote:
    What we don't know is - what's Charlie's angle? He has one, he didn't do the Time Warp out of the goodness of his heart. He still wants Parson, this is an ideal opening for him. I think the next text update is going to be an eyebook chat between Charlie and Parson. Demanding one of his calculations would help throw GK command even further off balance. How many Archons would it take to grab Parson right now anyway?


    Charlie is after the following in order (some of this is personal opinion):
    1) To secure his secrets (whatever they may be), presumably by croaking the decrypted Archons and/or ending GK.
    2) Securing Parson's bracer.
    3) Securing an additional Arkentool.
    4) Capturing or croaking Parson.
    5) Getting back into the good grace's of the RCCII to insure future busines.
    6) A big payday.

    Keeping Jetstone and the RCC2 alive obviously helps any number of these objectives: longterm and shorterm. And thats what the timewarp did, kept Jetstone alive. I have a feeling Charlie and Jillian planned for several possible actions on the part of GK (including Wanda turning), and a massed flier force seperated from the main column was one of them. Now, Jillian and Charlie can piggy back off the RCCII's anti-Stanley crusade. Heck, Charlie now thinks he can get paid by Jetstone to pursue some of the above objectives... which is win-win for him.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 22
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 6:45 am 
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    Lord Kasavin wrote:
    gazes_also wrote:
    The set up is clearly that Jillian is going to try to turn Ansom, anything else would be a huge HUH? and need a lot of explaining. She says explicitly it's not Wanda, Jack or Ossomer, she has Tram and his force hold at the bridge, so logically she's going there and wants the back-up.


    Well stated, I agree.


    Spoiler: show
    Well, duh. It is so obvious that this is the only logical, plotwise correct and whatever else have you, option, that I suspect almost everyone who suggests different theories is just kidding. I certainly am.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 22
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:43 am 
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    Rob probably went to/is a fan of Michigan. Either that or he hates Michigan and Jillian's head is about to explode.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 22
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 8:53 am 
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    Did anyone notice that the "rulers" (Slately and Stanley) are the ones who have no clue what's going on. Stanley carries it even further by not considering what he needs to do now, but rather wallow in the past trying to figure out "HOW DID THEY DO THAT?!??!?!?!???"

    Funny.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 22
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:49 am 
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    I think it's interesting that Jillian's new hat sets her up as a direct rival to Parson, which, in a sense, she is.

    A war between Parson and Charlie, or Parson and Tramennis, would be like a game between two chess grandmasters, with constant brilliant moves and countermoves.

    A war between Parson and Jillian would be like a game between a chess grandmaster and a petulant six-year-old, with constant brilliant moves and unpredictable, random, self-centered countermoves, until she gets so frustrated she can't just take Parson's queen that she knocks all the pieces off the board and stomps away.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 22
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:44 am 
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    So....

    Code:
    The set up is clearly that Jillian is going to try to turn Ansom, anything else would be a huge HUH? and need a lot of explaining. She says explicitly it's not Wanda, Jack or Ossomer, she has Tram and his force hold at the bridge, so logically she's going there and wants the back-up.


    This is absolutey correct.

    BUT if she gos for the airspace instead.... and kills Wanda.....

    Who gets the Arkenpliers?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 22
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:54 am 
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    diggitydug wrote:
    This is absolutey correct.

    BUT if she gos for the airspace instead.... and kills Wanda.....

    Who gets the Arkenpliers?


    We don't actually know if an Arkentool weilder can be croaked or not. Or if croaked would stay that way.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 22
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:52 am 
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    The situation has reversed, with Jillian recognizing Wanda is entirely at her mercy.

    So instead of actually trying to turn anything at the moment, what are the odds that Jillian offers Wanda the join or die ultimatum? If she HAS to turn anyone she will probably try to turn Ansom, but she'd probably prefer everyone. An entire army of encrypted couldn't hurt, either.

    After all, it's not like Jillian wants to recreate FAQ any less than she did during GK's turn.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 22
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:54 am 
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    HandofShadows wrote:
    diggitydug wrote:
    This is absolutey correct.

    BUT if she gos for the airspace instead.... and kills Wanda.....

    Who gets the Arkenpliers?


    We don't actually know if an Arkentool weilder can be croaked or not. Or if croaked would stay that way.


    Oh, c'mon. Even if it turns out to be the case it's a needless caution.

    Of course, Ansom was croaked, but I assume you mean an attuned wielder.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 22
     Post Posted: Sat Feb 27, 2010 12:07 pm 
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    splintermute wrote:
    I think it's interesting that Jillian's new hat sets her up as a direct rival to Parson, which, in a sense, she is.

    A war between Parson and Charlie, or Parson and Tramennis, would be like a game between two chess grandmasters, with constant brilliant moves and countermoves.

    A war between Parson and Jillian would be like a game between a chess grandmaster and a petulant six-year-old, with constant brilliant moves and unpredictable, random, self-centered countermoves, until she gets so frustrated she can't just take Parson's queen that she knocks all the pieces off the board and stomps away.


    :lol: So true.

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