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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 20
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:31 pm 
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BLANDCorporatio wrote:
So ... I wonder what Jillian could tell Wanda that may have swayed her. It's not Charlie's support- GK distrusts Charlie and while they'll attack him/her/it/them last, they WILL do so. Charlie cares not for Fate.

It's not an Arkentool that Jillian happened to attune to off-screen; a) that would be weird and b) she wouldn't have needed any preparation "Here, I'm an attuned wielder too and if their Fate is to be brought together so be it. Now join me".


No, it's Charlie. Wanda is sticking with Stanley because she believes the tools need to be together on the same side. Charlescomm and Faq are allied, and that's what Jillian is alluding to. So if Wanda turns to Faq, she's not abandoning bringing the tools together, she's just doing it on Faq's side instead of GK: Both GK and Faq (through Charley) has an attuned tool user. Wanda can change sides and have it be a zero-sum for her: two tools to one side.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 20
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:34 pm 
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    theseus2x wrote:
    Fourth: Its been implied that no one knows where Charlescomm capital is.


    That's only been implied on these forums. There is no canon reason to believe this.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 20
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:34 pm 
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    DoctorJest wrote:
    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    So ... I wonder what Jillian could tell Wanda that may have swayed her. It's not Charlie's support- GK distrusts Charlie and while they'll attack him/her/it/them last, they WILL do so. Charlie cares not for Fate.

    It's not an Arkentool that Jillian happened to attune to off-screen; a) that would be weird and b) she wouldn't have needed any preparation "Here, I'm an attuned wielder too and if their Fate is to be brought together so be it. Now join me".


    No, it's Charlie. Wanda is sticking with Stanley because she believes the tools need to be together on the same side. Charlescomm and Faq are allied, and that's what Jillian is alluding to. So if Wanda turns to Faq, she's not abandoning bringing the tools together, she's just doing it on Faq's side instead of GK: Both GK and Faq (through Charley) has an attuned tool user. Wanda can change sides and have it be a zero-sum for her: two tools to one side.


    But there's no guarantee Charlie will remain allied with Faq if Wanda switches sides. Charlie has never been a fan of the whole 'join the side of the tools willingly or die and do it as a decrypted unit' ideology. I doubt he'd support a side that embraces that directive.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 20
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:39 pm 
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    Menas wrote:
    DoctorJest wrote:
    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    So ... I wonder what Jillian could tell Wanda that may have swayed her. It's not Charlie's support- GK distrusts Charlie and while they'll attack him/her/it/them last, they WILL do so. Charlie cares not for Fate.

    It's not an Arkentool that Jillian happened to attune to off-screen; a) that would be weird and b) she wouldn't have needed any preparation "Here, I'm an attuned wielder too and if their Fate is to be brought together so be it. Now join me".


    No, it's Charlie. Wanda is sticking with Stanley because she believes the tools need to be together on the same side. Charlescomm and Faq are allied, and that's what Jillian is alluding to. So if Wanda turns to Faq, she's not abandoning bringing the tools together, she's just doing it on Faq's side instead of GK: Both GK and Faq (through Charley) has an attuned tool user. Wanda can change sides and have it be a zero-sum for her: two tools to one side.


    But there's no guarantee Charlie will remain allied with Faq if Wanda switches sides. Charlie has never been a fan of the whole 'join the side of the tools willingly or die and do it as a decrypted unit' ideology. I doubt he'd support a side that embraces that directive.


    Maybe, but I doubt it. Charlie is out of customers. No one trusts him anymore, the RCC won't even take his calls. Above all else, Charlie is Mercenary. He's not going to let principle get in the way of buttering his bread.

    Even so, Wanda believes enough in Fate that she may well believe he has no choice. It could be enough of a reason for Wanda to turn.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 20
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:40 pm 
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    Ok, I guess I'll speculate a little after all.

    I don't think there's any way Jillian can go for Wanda's deal. So I think she's going to attack Wanda's forces with Charlie, and try to capture Wanda and turn her. If Wanda truly only cares about getting the tools together, then she shouldn't have a problem with that. And I expect that's what Jillian will tell Wanda if she succeeds in capturing her.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 20
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:43 pm 
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    DoctorJest wrote:
    Menas wrote:
    But there's no guarantee Charlie will remain allied with Faq if Wanda switches sides. Charlie has never been a fan of the whole 'join the side of the tools willingly or die and do it as a decrypted unit' ideology. I doubt he'd support a side that embraces that directive.


    Maybe, but I doubt it. Charlie is out of customers. No one trusts him anymore, the RCC won't even take his calls. Above all else, Charlie is Mercenary. He's not going to let principle get in the way of buttering his bread.

    Even so, Wanda believes enough in Fate that she may well believe he has no choice. It could be enough of a reason for Wanda to turn.


    >>Maybe, but I doubt it. Charlie is out of customers. No one trusts him anymore, the RCC won't even take his calls. Above all else, Charlie is Mercenary. He's not going to let principle get in the way of buttering his bread.<<

    I'm pretty sure the Royals will be willing to enlist Charlie's help once they see he is unwilling to remain allied with a side simply because Wanda is on it. Wanda's philosophy is 'join my side or die and then join my side anyway'. So if Wanda gets her way, Charlie's business will die, as there will only be one side. A side which he doesn't like, to boot.

    I think the chances of Charlies remaining allied with Wanda of his own accord are approximately zero.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 20
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:10 pm 
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    Menas wrote:
    I think the chances of Charlies remaining allied with Wanda of his own accord are approximately zero.


    I don't agree, but again, it doesn't really matter for the purposes of this particular page. It only matters if Jillian things she can sell Wanda on the idea. Which I believe she does. Jillian's alliance with Charlie is her Big Secret, because no one on either side knows about it. That's what she's alluding to in this update, and that's the card she's going to try to play to get Wanda to turn.

    In fact, she's not telling Wanda in advance that this is what the case is, just asking her to trust her and turn on her word. She's not even selling Wanda on the idea of "ally with Charlie", she's selling her on "Ally with me, trust me that it won't impact your destiny mission". Any reaction Charlie may have will be after the deal is done.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 20
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:24 pm 
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    DoctorJest wrote:
    {snip} zero sum game for Wanda {snip}

    It only matters if Jillian things she can sell Wanda on the idea. Which I believe she does. Jillian's alliance with Charlie is her Big Secret, because no one on either side knows about it. That's what she's alluding to in this update, and that's the card she's going to try to play to get Wanda to turn.

    In fact, she's not telling Wanda in advance that this is what the case is, just asking her to trust her and turn on her word. She's not even selling Wanda on the idea of "ally with Charlie", she's selling her on "Ally with me, trust me that it won't impact your destiny mission". Any reaction Charlie may have will be after the deal is done.


    There's two parts to the argument about why Wanda and Charlie would not ally. Wanda wouldn't agree to this, because like I've kept saying and didn't see a good reply to, Charlie cares not about Fate; he/she/it/they just want(s) his/her/its/their bread buttered. Charlie is nobody's Tool. Wanda values this appreciation of Fate, which she sees in Stanley, enough to turn down Jillian's offer. The lack of "Fate awareness" in Charlie is a deal-breaker.

    And Charlie wouldn't agree to this, because it's bad for business and adds (or keeps, as you like) a weird unpredictable element in the mix, Wanda and her Decrypted.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 20
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:31 pm 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    DoctorJest wrote:
    {snip} zero sum game for Wanda {snip}

    It only matters if Jillian things she can sell Wanda on the idea. Which I believe she does. Jillian's alliance with Charlie is her Big Secret, because no one on either side knows about it. That's what she's alluding to in this update, and that's the card she's going to try to play to get Wanda to turn.

    In fact, she's not telling Wanda in advance that this is what the case is, just asking her to trust her and turn on her word. She's not even selling Wanda on the idea of "ally with Charlie", she's selling her on "Ally with me, trust me that it won't impact your destiny mission". Any reaction Charlie may have will be after the deal is done.


    There's two parts to the argument about why Wanda and Charlie would not ally. Wanda wouldn't agree to this, because like I've kept saying and didn't see a good reply to, Charlie cares not about Fate; he/she/it/they just want(s) his/her/its/their bread buttered. Charlie is nobody's Tool. Wanda values this appreciation of Fate, which she sees in Stanley, enough to turn down Jillian's offer. The lack of "Fate awareness" in Charlie is a deal-breaker.


    Since Wanda believes Fate is inevitable and isn't a matter of choice, this is not a deal breaker. If Fate required consent, you'd have a point. But since Wanda believes Charlie has a role to play laid out for him (as she bluntly stated) I doubt she'd balk about Charlie. Wanda feels as if none of them have any choice. What Charlie wants wouldn't matter one whit to her.

    Quote:
    And Charlie wouldn't agree to this, because it's bad for business and adds (or keeps, as you like) a weird unpredictable element in the mix, Wanda and her Decrypted.


    First, we don't know the details of the deal between Charlie and Jillian.
    Second, Jillian may not use the decrypted in the same manner as GK has been. Jillian doesn't want to conquer the world. She might agree to do so for Wanda's sake, but it's not a driving goal with her like it is with Stanley.

    There's too many unknowns, including Charlie himself (who the narrative keeps beating into us is an "enigma" yet everyone here seems to think they've got his number) to say that.

    Finally, what Charlie will or will not agree to doesn't matter in this instance. It's if Wanda will agree to ally with Jillian on trust alone. Because, once more, Jillian isn't saying to Wanda "Hey Charlie has a Tool too, so if you change to my side, it's not violating your Fate!" she's saying "If you change to my side it's not violating your Fate Mission Thing, but I can't tell you how. You just have to trust me and turn".

    So all this speculation of "Wanda wouldn't agree to ally with Charlie!" or vice versa is irrelevant, because that's not the dilemma being presented here. The question is, will Wanda trust Jillian and turn sight unseen.

    If she won't then this has been an awful lot of set up for nothing, so I suspect she will. The widening rift between Wanda and Stanley's authority is being brought to it's final conclusion, whatever that might be.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 20
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:53 pm 
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    DoctorJest wrote:
    Since Wanda believes Fate is inevitable and isn't a matter of choice, this is not a deal breaker. If Fate required consent, you'd have a point. But since Wanda believes Charlie has a role to play laid out for him (as she bluntly stated) I doubt she'd balk about Charlie. Wanda feels as if none of them have any choice. What Charlie wants wouldn't matter one whit to her.


    Ditch a willing follower of Fate for one that does not, and has proven time and again as manipulative, unreliable and enigmatic? Sure Fate has a part for Charlie, but I seriously doubt Wanda sees that part as her ally; imo it would make no sense. Charlie can and will be approached, later.

    DoctorJest wrote:
    First, we don't know the details of the deal between Charlie and Jillian.
    Second, Jillian may not use the decrypted in the same manner as GK has been. Jillian doesn't want to conquer the world. She might agree to do so for Wanda's sake, but it's not a driving goal with her like it is with Stanley.


    First, that is irrelevant; we're not discussing any Jillian/Charlie contract we're discussing a putative Wanda-Charlie alliance by way of Faq. Second, Wanda is a dangerous caster. Period. She wants the world, because the world contains the Arkentools and possible unattuned opposition to getting them. That will be bad for Charlie. And also->

    DoctorJest wrote:
    Finally, what Charlie will or will not agree to doesn't matter in this instance.


    Huh? If Charlie breaks off alliance with Faq, then the whole point of Wanda's turning to Faq (attuned wielder) is lost. Supposedly, Wanda is smart enough to know that.

    DoctorJest wrote:
    It's if Wanda will agree to ally with Jillian on trust alone. Because, once more, Jillian isn't saying to Wanda "Hey Charlie has a Tool too, so if you change to my side, it's not violating your Fate!" she's saying "If you change to my side it's not violating your Fate Mission Thing, but I can't tell you how. You just have to trust me and turn".


    About that, why ISN'T she saying directly that she's allied to Charlie? It would spare everyone (I mean Jillian and Wanda) grief by getting this over with quickly .... that is if it had a chance of working. If Charlie was a juicy enough incentive to get Wanda to turn, Jillian probably would have said so.

    All this "trust me" business feels fishy, and for once it's not the tinfoil hat speaking as other posters here have had the same comment.

    DoctorJest wrote:
    So all this speculation of "Wanda wouldn't agree to ally with Charlie!" or vice versa is irrelevant, because that's not the dilemma being presented here. The question is, will Wanda trust Jillian and turn sight unseen.

    If she won't then this has been an awful lot of set up for nothing, so I suspect she will. The widening rift between Wanda and Stanley's authority is being brought to it's final conclusion, whatever that might be.


    Oh, but it is very relevant. We want to guess what Jillian has up her sleeve. This discussion was meant, from the very beginning, to show that whatever it is, it's not Charlie's allied status as incentive for Wanda.

    PS: so let's assume that Wanda turns "sight unseen". Jillian reveals the contents of the surprise- Charlie! Attuned wielder, everything's fine ... except that the whole issue of whether Charlie or Wanda would like to be allies pops up with even more relevance. And if Wanda could just turn to Faq on Jillian's request, why not immediately desert back to GK when the surprise offer happens to be underwhelming?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 20
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:07 pm 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    Oh, but it is very relevant. We want to guess what Jillian has up her sleeve. This discussion was meant, from the very beginning, to show that whatever it is, it's not Charlie's allied status as incentive for Wanda.


    I'd put money on the assertion that it is, in fact, the alliance with Charlescomm that Jillian's alluding to. This is why Jillian bringing up Charley to Wanda was so very relevant and why Wanda's comments about Charlie immediately led to Jillian's new bid.

    Quote:
    PS: so let's assume that Wanda turns "sight unseen". Jillian reveals the contents of the surprise- Charlie! Attuned wielder, everything's fine ... except that the whole issue of whether Charlie or Wanda would like to be allies pops up with even more relevance. And if Wanda could just turn to Faq on Jillian's request, why not immediately desert back to GK when the surprise offer happens to be underwhelming?


    Yeah, but this is the basis of our fundamental disagreement. I don't think there'd necessarily be an foregone conclusion that both Wanda and Charlie would quit just because the other is involved. Not right away anyways.

    And you also underestimate Wanda's Faith in her Destiny. Nor her love for Jillian.

    Finally, I don't think Wanda can just choose to go "Oh I'm now with GK" once the deed is done. I think someone from GK needs to extend that offer, and knowing Stanley, his ego, and his already growing distrust of Wanda, that doesn't seem very likely.

    Regardless what Wanda thinks of Charlie, if she turns to Faq, she's not going to have GK waiting with open arms to welcome her back any time soon. If she turns, she's not coming back to GK as anything but an enemy.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 20
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:21 pm 
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    atteSmythe wrote:
    davesnothere wrote:
    Why is there a *roll* next to Wanda's ear in the second panel?

    I believe Wanda's rolling her eyes at Stanley. Or rather, the thought of him.


    I read it as being Wanda's hair settling into place when she tilts her head up.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 20
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:53 pm 
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    Surtt wrote:
    Quote:
    I wonder what Jillian is going to tell her - that she has an Arkentool perhaps, discovered during her turns as a merc? And why can't she tell her there and then? Or maybe try and tell her that Jillian's relationship with Charlescomm could be an out from GK but an in with an arkentool...


    For some reason I have the impression that Jillian is going to tell Wanda that Charlescomm is about to attack GK.
    So if she turns they will have gathered 3 of the arkentools.


    that was certainly my impression.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 20
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:01 pm 
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    Menas wrote:
    Ok, I guess I'll speculate a little after all.

    I don't think there's any way Jillian can go for Wanda's deal. So I think she's going to attack Wanda's forces with Charlie, and try to capture Wanda and turn her. If Wanda truly only cares about getting the tools together, then she shouldn't have a problem with that. And I expect that's what Jillian will tell Wanda if she succeeds in capturing her.
    I think this is all a setup by Jillian. And a way for her to think "I gave Wanda a chance to turn", before she treacherously stabs Wanda.

    But my guesses here are usually wrong. :P


    Krennson wrote:
    Surtt wrote:
    Quote:
    I wonder what Jillian is going to tell her - that she has an Arkentool perhaps, discovered during her turns as a merc? And why can't she tell her there and then? Or maybe try and tell her that Jillian's relationship with Charlescomm could be an out from GK but an in with an arkentool...


    For some reason I have the impression that Jillian is going to tell Wanda that Charlescomm is about to attack GK.
    So if she turns they will have gathered 3 of the arkentools.


    that was certainly my impression.
    Hoo boy. Looking forward to yet another big battle involving Dwagons! Lots and lots of Dwagons!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 20
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:50 pm 
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter This user is a Tool! Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user was a Tool before it was cool This user is a part of Erfworld canon! Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    theseus2x wrote:
    Besides : If Spacerock falls, then we lose Trammenis. :(

    Not necessarily, quoting Parson after Wanda had decrypted Ossomer.
    "Hit the tower and take out Slately. You have Jetstones's heir, so the whole side should fall. Or possibly convert we don't know."
    I take that to mean that Ossomer might become the overlord of the Spacerock forces after his father dies, even though he is decrypted. What that would do to his mind is an even bigger guess.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 20
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:34 pm 
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    I think they are both going to backstab the other one but Wanda's the more reckless of the two...

    Perhaps plotomancy demands an unexpected outcome, and that'd likely be Jillian saving the day once again.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 20
     Post Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:40 am 
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    The last 2-3 pages have been *epic*. Ditto what everyone's saying about the artwork - while it was good before, it's better now. Expressive expressions, nice vistas.

    All this speculation is rather pointless, but it's fun, so here's my theory (which, of course, someone already mostly theorized):
    Charlie is about to attack Gobwin Knob, like next turn. Jillian knows this... she's waiting for the attack to happen. She may fight Wanda this turn, but only to delay until Charlie captures Stanley (as if it will be that easy). Then she tells Wanda, "See? Charlie now controls two arkentools, join *me* and be in *alliance* with Charlie." Wanda doesn't have to work for Charlie. In a way, Charlie and Wanda will both work for Queen Jillian.

    Maybe Jillian convinces Wanda to order the decrypted out of the city, in exchange for Jillian abandoning Space Rock. Even trade, win-win for Jillian and Wanda.

    Of course, Gobwin Knob is a high-level fortress. Maybe even tougher than it was before? And of course Parson is defending it. Gobwin Knob will not fall easily. I don't think Parson will meet Charlie just yet, so either the attack is more of an abduction, or Jillian's plan will fail.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 20
     Post Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:04 am 
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    Charlescomm is not out of customers. Charlescomm just has no customers in this section of Erfworld which while it concerns him it is not leaving him without a source of cash.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 20
     Post Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:55 am 
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    Undead Prince wrote:
    Wanda's just explained how she shouldn't, won't and doesn't need to betray Stanley for FAQ. And yet, merely a couple of panels later, she makes the promise to turn, Jillian seems to accept it, and Wanda seems to believe Jillian's acceptance (what with the victory smirk on her face). Wanda notes that Stanley has only a dim awareness of the Arkentool destiny; he definitely doesn't brim over with trust towards Wanda, as we know from previous installments. In these circumstances, Wanda's turning would definitely seem like a betrayal to Stanley, making an enemy of him, and therefore a major step back in Wanda's unification plans; yet, again, Wanda makes the proposal which Jillian accepts, and Wanda believes the acceptance. It does not add up.

    IMHO, Jill's after Ansom and revenge first, with Wanda only second; now that Wanda didn't go the "easy way", i.e. turning immediately, Jill will show her the "hard way". Again, it all comes back full circle to Wanda being overconfident and Jillian betraying her misplaced trust.


    Ah but Wanda hasn't actually commited to do anything more than "negotiate".

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 20
     Post Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:35 am 
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    I've (constructively) criticised the new artwork previously for the characterisation of the female characters being too bland and generic, but all is forgiven. This strip has outstanding detail. Three thumbs up.

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