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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 19
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:33 pm 
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Yes that's our Wanda!! I got a bad feeling that the turnamaner is going to be used anyway and hopefully it will fail spectacularly ageist Wanda but not ageist Ansom. Now can we get this battle started. It will be a big battle as Jillian must deal with Wanda's choice in fate.

Side note I feel that everyone who was saying that the tools where exerting their will over their wielders was correct. Could the tools hold grudges ageist each other? This could be one reason that Stanly and Charlie hate each other, though I doubt either one would admit it, their items dislike each other. Great up date, was well worth the wait.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 19
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:41 pm 
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    oslecamo2 wrote:

    On the other hand, GK winning now doesn't exactly mean they auto-win. Perhaps it means that the other sides finally start geting serious about them.

    After all, from all we've seen untill now, the royals made the big big mistake of thinking that GK wasn't much of a threat. They still tought about backstabbing each other. They still seek to manipulate, lie and betrayal to try to squeeze self-profit.

    But Hamster, Stanley and the rest of the crew have showed them that they're not to be triffled with. They're not just some mindless horde of decrypted wich you can hold off at a chokepoint. They're not a bunch of aristrocats whose feelings you can manipulate. They' didn't come to play at wars. They came to win wars. And if you don't face them with all your power and wits, you're gonna be crushed whitout mercy.

    No sir, what we've seen untill now are but the initial skirmishes. Introduction is almost over. True war starts now.


    Not all the other sides are royals. Apparently, Jitterati isn't (based on Duncan's comments in the written update) so they'd might ally with GK. Carpool might ally with GK as well since they are at war with RCC II member TV. Additionally, with the fall of Jetstone, the lesser partners in the RCC II (Foxmud, Hobbitm, etc) may choose survival over Royalty and ally with GK. Even if no one allies with GK, the Haggar force is probably toast as they would get attacked next turn by a bunch of dwagons, megalos, and gwiffons). This would add a couple more thousand to the decrypted ranks. Plus, GK is in perfect position to take over all of Jetstone's cities. After a small bit of consolidation, they'd have full control over:

    1) GK's original cities
    2) Cities of the milquetoast clan
    3) UniRoyal's cities
    4) Jetstone's cities

    Plus, they have thousands of units that don't require support at all.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 19
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:45 pm 
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    Salvage wrote:
    Also If Jillian popped a Turnamancer now of all times that means the Titans intend for her to use this turnamancer. Jillian is not going to be defeated and she will not leave peacefully, she will also not join GK. She can turn Jack still. Jack even loves her and is from FAQ originally.


    She didn't pop a Turnamancer, she hired Vanna, formerly of Unaroyal. We learned this during the summer updates.

    And I just want to ask one question for everyone who was so insistent a few weeks ago that Faq's 'mystery caster' was not, in fact, Vanna: why, it looks like your daily rations popped with some Apples today. How do you like 'em?


    Last edited by Angband on Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 19
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:46 pm 
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    That was very interesting. I really thought Jillian was pulling a con, and that she was trying to get Wanda to turn so that she could have the decrypted units on her side and disband Wanda at that point; keeping the decrypted under her control and removing Wanda from the game, and leaving the Arkenpliers behind for Jillian/Charlie's use and/or safe-guarding.

    But it's obvious Jillian and Wanda care about each other very much, and now I'm not sure if it was a con or not. Both of them seem to sincerely regret that Wanda can't turn to Jillian's side. Even after what happened at GK Jillian still brought a turnamancer in the hope that the only thing binding Wanda to Stanley was loyalty (even after the Archon at GK had told Jillian there were no loyalty spells on Wanda).

    But now Wanda has forced Jillian's hand. Jillian can't abide Stanley, and would never willingly put herself in a position where she'd have to serve him (this includes not willingly accepting decryption as a suitable alternative). Wanda has laid everything on the table believing that she has the upper hand, and is hoping that Jillian's love for her outweighs her (Jillian's) hatred for Stanley. Wanda seems to sincerely be hoping that Jillian will be willing to tell her units to stand-down and save herself. Wanda appears to be willing to spare Jillian from decryption, and doesn't want to force her to join Stanley's side if she doesn't choose to do so.

    Since Jillian now knows that Wanda would never leave Stanley of her own accord, Jillian has no options left but to croak Stanley. For two reasons:

    - I'm sure she can't abide the idea of a world where everyone is under the control of Stanley, even if Jillian herself were allowed to remain 'exempt' from Stanley's side. She won't stand for that reality as long as she can do something about it.
    - If all Wanda truly cares about is the gathering of the Arkentools, then I'm guessing Jillian will convince herself that croaking Stanley and gaining ownership of the Hammer (for her side) is now the best way to achieve Wanda's goal without having to surrender herself to Stanley in the process. It's the only way Jillian and Wanda can be together again.


    Last edited by Menas on Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 19
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:53 pm 
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    A couple more points I'd like to add quickly:

    - I believe Charlie and Jillian's plans are still in place minus the turning of Wanda. I believe they're still ready to wipe the floor with Wanda's forces. But after the last panel with Jillian/Wanda, I'm also guessing that Jillian will do everything she can to protect Wanda. It looks like Jillian won't settle for anything less than attempting to capture Wanda rather than kill her. Jillian might be willing to try and turn Wanda whether Wanda likes it not, to 'save Wanda from herself'.
    - Wanda and Stanley are now more of a threat to Charlie than ever before. If Charlie knows why Wanda is truly loyal to Stanley, then he also knows that neither Wanda nor Stanley are going to rest until they have his Arkendish. He's not going to willingly join Stanley's side, so he'll now want Stanley crippled and/or dead more than ever before. Which means he might try to have Wanda killed during this fight even if Jillian is against it. It strategically makes sense as it could potentially take the decrypted out of the fight, and it would remove the risk of her decrypting any more units during and after the battle.


    Last edited by Menas on Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 19
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:54 pm 
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    Knight13 wrote:
    Why do you think she plans to take the Arkendish away from Charlie? He's attuned to it and therefore, according to Wanda's logic, he's one of the Chosen of the Titans. I think she wants to gather both the Tools and their attuned wielders. If her plan was just to gather all the Arkentools under her personal control, I think she would have simply croaked Stanley by now and taken the Hammer for herself.



    hrm, I wonder if Jillian will be smart enough to point that out - that there's at least one attuned arkentool out there that's NOT on the Stanley-Wanda axis. I wonder what response Wanda would have to that...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 19
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:00 pm 
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    build6 wrote:
    hrm, I wonder if Jillian will be smart enough to point that out - that there's at least one attuned arkentool out there that's NOT on the Stanley-Wanda axis. I wonder what response Wanda would have to that...


    Based on what she just said to Jillian it looks like Wanda's response would be 'Charlie can either join us willingly, or we'll take the Arkendish out of his cold, dead, and possibly decrypted hands'.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 19
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:01 pm 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    Good suggestion; we might then see a variant of the Sistine Chapel ceiling


    ... are you trying to kill the artist??? :-P

    Menas wrote:
    Based on what she just said to Jillian it looks like Wanda's response would be 'Charlie can either join us willingly, or we'll take the Arkendish out of his cold, dead, and possibly decrypted hands'.


    hrm, but if it's ok to kill a Charlie who is Tool-attuned, then why not kill Stanley? (or... both?)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 19
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:05 pm 
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    dan2178 wrote:
    I'm curious to see how this plays out. The apparent outcome is that GK will capture Spacerock, decrypt the FAQ and garrison forces, and have the outside Jetstone forces disband. This will allow them to bring in Ansom's forces into Spacerock and withstand any attack by the Haggar force. However, this raises plot issues in that GK could become too powerful. Thus, there is a sort of paradox in that GK losing is not very plausible but GK winning is also not very plausible due to plot.



    Not necessarily. Ossomer commented on this in the previous update.

    Ossomer wrote:
    Should Faq stand aside, their victory over Jetstone would also proceed relatively smoothly. But to fight his way through the forces before him, Ossomer knew he would expend too large a portion of his own force to take the garrison without destroying it.


    So it's possible that he means that an easy victory does not croak Slately and does not disband Jetstone's field forces. Maybe they capture Slately, and there is some rule about an Overlord submitting when captured. That might force Jetstone to ally with GK, which would leave Tramennis alive (yay!) and also allow Ansom's column to advance into the city unopposed.

    Just a thought, we'll see what happens. Charlie's Archons (which I'm *sure* are around somewhere) are still a big unknown in all of this.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 19
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:10 pm 
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    build6 wrote:

    hrm, but if it's ok to kill a Charlie who is Tool-attuned, then why not kill Stanley? (or... both?)


    Stanley is already willingly on her side. There's no reason to do anything to him - he's already a tool wielder, and he's already on her side. And I don't believe she can harm him in any way as long as he's her overlord. Leaving the side of a tool that's already on her side would go against her purpose.

    The point about killing is fair. Maybe she wouldn't want the Arkendish without Charlie wielding it. But Wanda has already shown that she's willing to decrypt pretty much anyone, including Jack, with the exception of Jillian. So I don't think she'd have any qualms with decrypting Charlie if he wouldn't come over to her side willingly.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 19
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:34 pm 
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    Damn! I was so sure that Wanda would turn. I feel like an idiot now.

    This is probably the most plot-heavy page in Book 2, maybe in all of erfworld (excepting Parson's summoning and Wanda's attuning pages). It raises several issues:

    1) The Siege of Spacerock: Who's gonna win? Ossomer and Wanda seem rather confident, but so does Duncan. There are a few possibilities that spring to mind:
    1A) Jillian refuses to stand down and her forces get obliterated. Strikes me as unlikely.
    1B) Jillian refuses to stand down and Charlie's forces defeat Wanda. Seems most likely from a plot standpoint.
    1C) Jillian refuses to stand down and her forces alone defeat Wanda. I don't see how this could happen.
    1D) Jillian stands down and Wanda destroys Spacerock. No way, there's too much foreshadowing against this.
    1E) Jillian stands down and Charlie fights Wanda. No idea who would win, but this seems credible.

    2) The Arkentools are meant to be together? This is the most plot-heavy part of the page.*
    1A) How does Wanda plan on getting the arkendish?
    1Aa) Croak/decrypt Charlie. Possible, but seems unlikely. If that was possible she would have decrypted Stanley when he came back to GK.
    1Ab) Turn Charlie to GK. I don't think so. Charlie probably enjoys his current life way too much.
    1Ac) Croak Charlie and take the dish to somebody else (Maggie?) for them to attune to it and try to be lucky. I don't find this plausible, really.
    1B) Jillian's reaction. How will this effect her plans?
    1Ba) Her first instinct will be to fly to GK and croak Stanley, but I think she'll be talked out of it by Charlie/Duncan.
    1Bb) So then she'll come to the realization that there's another tool out there. I could see her confronting Wanda again with the arkensomething and convincing her to turn.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 19
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:36 pm 
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    I suppose teats refers to manboobs, since we already knew titans had testes. Or are there female elvises?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 19
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:41 pm 
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    Welf von Ehrwald wrote:
    I really enjoy the face expressions. You can see Wanda's regret, that she has to deny, Jillians excitement, Wanda's disgust with the idea of loving Stanley.

    I think Stanley would keep another arkentool for himdelf, if they found one without an attuned wielder, even if he himself can't attune. Wearing two highly divine artefacts is definitly a sign of titanic favour, and he has to re-establish his special position as choosen one of the titans.
    (Although it would be funny to see all GK units in a line and watch try to attune to the new arkentool)


    Not just disgust at the thought of loving Stanley, but disgust at the thought of Jillian thinking that Wanda loved anyone more than she loved Jillian. And a little disgust at Jillian for thinking that too, I think

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 19
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:43 pm 
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    Y'know i am a little disappointed that the mystery caster is Vanna... i wanted to see a new caster and magics in action during combat; see what unexpected twists might come about...
    it did kill some theories on how charlie would take action in the battle
    Also this page killed any theories of Wanda finding some loophole in the mechanics to start her own side

    dan2178 wrote:
    Not all the other sides are royals. Apparently, Jitterati isn't (based on Duncan's comments in the written update) so they'd might ally with GK. Carpool might ally with GK as well since they are at war with RCC II member TV. Additionally, with the fall of Jetstone, the lesser partners in the RCC II (Foxmud, Hobbitm, etc) may choose survival over Royalty and ally with GK.

    Not exactly... while those non-royal sides may not care about royalty they likely do care about their own power... When it comes down to it, Stanely wants everyone to follow the attuned. He's just as bad if not worse than the royalty... What GK wants is less like an alliance and more like putting the other nations under his own power; The nations still rule themselves, but they answer to and follow stanley. As such, many non-royals may find themselves allying with each to form their own collation against GK to protect their own power, and possibly even be willing to combine forses with the royals to destroy a mutual threat.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 19
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:55 pm 
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    teratorn wrote:
    I suppose teats refers to manboobs, since we already knew titans had testes. Or are there female elvises?


    The female Elvises or Elvi are called "Priscillas" :P

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 19
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:05 pm 
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    Wow, this is going to be good. Didn't expect this.

    Well, if Charlie wasn't involved in this plan they would be hard-pressed to win, anyway.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 19
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:10 pm 
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    I believe in the next update Jillian will suggest that Stanley be croaked and his Arkenhammer taken in what she believes to be following Wanda's belief that the Tools should be brought together while carrying out her revenge on the twerp. Wanda will argue that Stanley is attuned to his Tool and therefore should not be croaked. Vanna the Turnamancer will be used to forcibly turn Wanda but that won't work because Wanda carries and is attuned to a Tool. At this point, Mr. Shit will have his appointment with Ms. Fan.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 19
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:50 pm 
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    Sinrus wrote:
    1Aa) Croak/decrypt Charlie. Possible, but seems unlikely. If that was possible she would have decrypted Stanley when he came back to GK.


    >>If that was possible she would have decrypted Stanley when he came back to GK.

    Wanda isn't allowed to harm her ruler as long as she's on her ruler's side, due to Erfworld mechanics. She would have to turn to another side to croak/decrypt Stanley. The fact that she's unwilling to do this causes me to believe that she won't turn against anyone wielding an Arkentool once they're on the same side. I'm not sure what Wanda would do to Charlie if he won't join her side willingly. But she's definitely after the Arkendish.

    And it's clear she's not going to willingly turn on Stanley.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 19
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:29 pm 
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    BLANDCorporatio wrote:
    Sieggy wrote:
    Now, if Wanda were smart, she'd tell Jillian that Stanley has the Tool SHE is destined to wield, and help her get it.


    My thoughts exactly, which I describe in the "Would Wanda turn to Faq" thread. Now Jillian has one more reason to go after Stanley.

    Yes! I hope Jillian is crafty enough to suggest it to Wanda. She seems the type to wield the hammer.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 19
     Post Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:32 pm 
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