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 Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 18
 Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:27 pm 
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DO EET NOW, capture Trammenis, Parson and the GK casters later, be the awesomest side ever, conquer the world then chill out and wear cool shades.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 18
     Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:10 pm 
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    AMEN!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 18
     Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:31 pm 
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    Huh. If Wanda accepts, then it's close to what I had expected; I had expected another update or two of negotiation, with Wanda trying to convince Jillian to join her, to finally offer Ansome to Jillian in desperation. Didn't expect Jillian to make the offer so soon.

    If Wanda accepts, it would be fascinating to see the remnants of the RCC go over, ironically, to Stanley, as they realize that Parson is the only hope they have of beating Wanda. (would love to see Tremmenis, Parson and Stanley all trying to talk battle plans at once.) And to see just where Charlie stands in all of this, since I have no clue where he would be; could be on either side, on both sides, be a 3rd side...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 18
     Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:37 pm 
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    I could see Wanda turn, I suppose. It'd be great to see the RCCII and GK have to work together. It would also create some dramatic tension between Jillian and Vinny. Charlie... he'd turn on Jillian, I think. Remember, although he wants to croak a tool, his real goal is to prevent one world side.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 18
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:08 am 
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    Just realized that Wanda's expression in Panel 4 is my favorite ever in erfworld.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 18
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:59 am 
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    Hmmm... if my speculation here is right, then Charlie's plan is absolutely brilliant.

    Remember Charlie's current dilemma - "Everyone is treating this like the War of the Arkentools." Yes, turning Wanda against Stanley definitely changes that dynamic, makes him hireable again, and - since he's making sure Gobwin Knob gets no actual Gobwin natural allies - sets him up beautifully for the secondary goal of capturing Parson. He may not want one world side (since that would mean no one to hire him to be against someone else), but that's a long term goal easily handled by accepting commissions from Faq's enemies later on, especially since they have no knowledge of him helping Faq get to this point. It's brilliant.

    This also certainly fits in with the prophecy, as Parson would definitely need to get a grip on the disarray that will ensue when every single city under GK's control will erupt into spontaneous civil war between Decrypted and Hobgobwin/Dwagon units.

    It's also perfectly in line for Wanda to do. Remember, last time Jillian asked her to turn, she was still with Stanley because she was still craving the Arkentool that she was destined to have. Now that that is fulfilled, she doesn't need him anymore.

    The only problem I have is a simple logistical one, which I hope isn't a brewing mistake on the author's part - it's not Faq's turn. It's still GK's turn, and that means that Faq's current forces would be as useless in hitting Jetstone's garrison as Charlie's forces were in hitting Gobwin Knob's, since they can't cross into the garrison when it's not their turn. Likewise, if Wanda and Co. flip to Faq, it will no longer be their turn either, which will make Jetstone's garrison completely safe, at least until Gobwin Knob ends turn. Then it's basically a toss up - if Faq's turn comes before Jetstone's, they're good to go, but if Jetstone's turn comes first, the column and casters pull back to the city and take on the Faq/Decrypted Alliance. So Jillian's offer to take the city "right now" is a technical impossibility.


    Last edited by arin on Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 18
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:22 am 
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    arin wrote:
    The only problem I have is a simple logistical one, which I hope isn't a brewing mistake on the author's part - it's not Faq's turn. It's still GK's turn, and that means that Faq's current forces would be as useless in hitting Jetstone's garrison as Charlie's forces were in hitting Gobwin Knob's, since they can't cross into the garrison when it's not their turn. Likewise, if Wanda and Co. flip to Faq, it will no longer be their turn either, which will make Jetstone's garrison completely safe, at least until Gobwin Knob ends turn. Then it's basically a toss up - if Faq's turn comes before Jetstone's, they're good to go, but if Jetstone's turn comes first, the column and casters pull back to the city and take on the Faq/Decrypted Alliance. So Jillian's offer to take the city "right now" is a technical impossibility.
    Given that Jillian made the offer, it seems likely to me that Faq's turn comes before Jetstone's and she knows it.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 18
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:31 am 
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    Regarding the question of whether this is Charlie's plan, I think it's noteworthy that what Jillian is suggesting to Wanda is almost exactly like the plan Charlie gave Jillian for dealing with Jitterati and the Western Giants. In that plan, Jillian called for a parley. She pretended she was parleying with Jitterati, when in fact she was parleying with the Western Giants. While Parleying, she had the Western Giants change sides from Jitterati to Faq. Then the Giants attacked Jitterati forces throughout Jitterati territory. So I think this development can't come as a total shock to Charlie, since he knows he has already given Jillian the basic idea.

    Because we don't know what Charlie really wants, besides a bigger Archon fleet, it's hard to say how he will react if Wanda turns. But I suspect that in order to conquer Erfworld, a side needs Royalty AND all of the Arkentools. If Wanda joined Jillian, and Charlie maintained his alliance with Jillian, then two of the Arkentools would be aligned against Stanley's Arkenhammer, which might be attractive to both Wanda and Charlie.
    If Wanda agrees to it, I expect the Decrypted forces in Gobwin Knob will immediately try to kill Stanley. Stanley is somewhat prepared for this, since he has hobgobwins guarding the council chamber he's in. But Parson may find himself suddenly back in combat.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 18
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:44 am 
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    dan2178 wrote:
    Jeivar wrote:

    I think you've overlooked the fact that Erf is a very morally screwed-up place with no traditional heroes or real life-like ethics. Don King and Charley didn't support Jillian out of kindness, but because it served their best interests. The closest thing to a "good guy" is Parson, and only because he comes from a world that isn't designed for constant warfare. As for Stanley's rant, I don't put much stock in the opinion of a mental five-year old with delusions of greatness.


    Are you referring to the Parson who assassinated Ansom under a flag of truce? :)

    Erfworld is a game and the point of the game is to have your side survive.


    I did say "closest thing". Erf is a VERY gray place. I'm never all that upset by anyone doing something that would be evil in real life. Except that Stanley's pathetic childishness bugs me and I want to see him burn.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 18
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:50 am 
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    Quote:
    And what would the point be in your view, hmm?


    Please don't be arbitrarily antagonistic. When you give your opinion, someone will disagree.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 18
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:55 am 
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    arin wrote:
    The only problem I have is a simple logistical one, which I hope isn't a brewing mistake on the author's part - it's not Faq's turn. It's still GK's turn, and that means that Faq's current forces would be as useless in hitting Jetstone's garrison as Charlie's forces were in hitting Gobwin Knob's, since they can't cross into the garrison when it's not their turn. Likewise, if Wanda and Co. flip to Faq, it will no longer be their turn either, which will make Jetstone's garrison completely safe, at least until Gobwin Knob ends turn. Then it's basically a toss up - if Faq's turn comes before Jetstone's, they're good to go, but if Jetstone's turn comes first, the column and casters pull back to the city and take on the Faq/Decrypted Alliance. So Jillian's offer to take the city "right now" is a technical impossibility.


    Why would Slately break alliance with Faq just because he sees Wanda turning? The Faq forces could simply enter the tower on the mutual Faq/Jetstone turn and not reveal Jillian's betrayal until they're face-to-face with Slately.

    Heck, they could probably capture Slately without much of a fight. Then Vanna & Wanda might play good cop / bad cop to "convince" Slately to appoint Ossomer as Heir Designate. Croak/decrypt Slately (or convince him to abdicate, if such a thing is possible) and you have Erfworld's first decrypted Ruler, King Ossomer, and Jetstone would be under Jillian's control by way of Wanda. Presumably Tremmenis would split off a new side, but he'd be facing a situation where his brother might have free will if he could croak Wanda, so he might be hesitant to war with Jetstone.

    I wonder, if Faq is allied with Jetstone by way of the transitivity of Faq's alliance with TV and TV's alliance with Jetstone, would Jetstone have to break alliance with TV, or convince Don King to break alliance with Faq, in order for Jetstone to break alliance with Faq? After all, how can TV's bat have the same turn as both Faq and Jetstone if Faq and Jetstone break alliance with each other but neither breaks alliance with TV? Or maybe when Faq joined the RCC it had to give up its individual alliance with TV, but that's less fun.

    Edit 1: By the way, Wanda doesn't seem to have long-distance telepathic communications with the decrypted, so I doubt the ones outside of earshot would turn away from GK until they hear from her via archonic thinkagram. I wonder, if she sent a thinkagram to a decrypted warlord telling him to turn, and he relayed the order to decrypted infantry, would that really be sufficient? Also, could she order some decrypted to do specific sabotage-y things without immediately leaving GK's side? Sure, Stanley could disband any decrypted that don't turn, but I suspect he would at least have to have Maggie track them down individually and may not be able to disband them long-distance at all.

    Edit 2: If Charlie can mess with thinkamancy, perhaps especially with archonic thinkamancy, Wanda's ability to recruit the scattered decrypted to Faq might be impaired.

    Edit 3: If Vurp natural thinkamancies all the living hobgobwins to attack decrypted troops, how effectively will the decrypted defend themselves if they have not heard from Wanda and are taken by surprise? Maybe Jillian will try to make a deal with Vurp? Yikes!


    Last edited by Chit Rule Railroad on Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:23 am, edited 3 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 18
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:08 am 
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    Fun theory: What happens if the decrypted in Gobwin Knob DO kill stanley?

    Parson and the rest of the garrison would freeze in time, right? but they can still defend if attacked, which presumably means that if the attack begins with a parley, they also TURN if attacked....

    If tremmenis goes barbarian, notices that gobwin knob field units were suddenly disbanding, and figures that stanley must be dead... If tremmenis can win through to to Gobwin Knob, he might be able to ressurrect that side as the new king, and have Parson as chief warlord.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 18
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:41 am 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter This user has been published! Armored Dwagon Monthly Winner Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    Zeku wrote:
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    And what would the point be in your view, hmm?


    Please don't be arbitrarily antagonistic. When you give your opinion, someone will disagree.


    You dismiss people without explanation and I'M the one being antagonistic? Wow.

    I'm asking you an honest question. You dismissively claimed that people who didn't like panel 4 were missing the point. So I would appreciate it if you would explain what you mean, and what you think that point was.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 18
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:03 am 
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    What do you think it is?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 18
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:12 am 
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    Wanda is kinda stuck right now. I'm sure she wants to turn, but she's riding one of Stanley's dwagons. Wanda's head is only a turn of the neck away from a big, scary red dwagon's teeth and fire breath. And she's a caster, not a warlord. I doubt she has the hits to survive even 1 attack from the dwagon, especially considering she's probably riding the strongest one. Maybe if she climbs onto the megalogwiff and then says the magic words...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 18
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:27 am 
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    Niii! I have to butt in because no one has said it!!! Aren't you guys all thinking... what if Wanda turns to Jillian's side, and Ansom turns to GK's? Crazy, but why else would we be seeing the stress in Ansom's relationship with Wanda? And he's not near them, not with them, right now.... it's the perfect time for him to turn.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 18
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:42 am 
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    MonteCristo wrote:
    You're a poor judge of character...


    :P Well one of us has to be wrong.

    I guess we'll have to wait and see; there's little left to say on this topic before falling into repetition. One closing statement from me.

    Capturing Wanda, and wiping out Spacerock, are two different things. Jillian would have no problem with the former whatever her deals, but the latter ... nah. Even with all the education she received from Charlie about how to keep people like Vinnie in the dark, she probably won't go that far. If she did, she'd be no better than Stanley.

    And even decrypted Ansom has issues with his family geting croakrypted.

    BillMcD wrote:
    But even then, she didn't have 'total control'... she didn't even claim she did. She had influence. Subtle manipulation. And that was likely only done out of insecurity with Jillian 'escaping' (more than once, no less) away from her. If not for a fluke situation where the two impulses were put into direct opposition, the spell likely never would've gotten broken. Remember, Jillian told Jaqueline, "I like it."

    Likely, she knew about the spell - hell, it probably turned her on to have that 'even out here, I can't escape her' angle, knowing that in most situations, it wouldn't matter whatsoever, as long as Wanda wasn't around.


    She only had subtle control, because that was what she wanted? Or because it was all that was available, apart from the option of Zombie-Jillian?

    As for that famous line, well the story is murkier ... First Jillian reacts with surprise when a control spell is mentioned; some back-and-forth with archons, the "I like it line" follows but THEN Jillian makes her free spirit speech and choses Ansom. Wanda is pissed, and the next time these characters meet Jillian explains that Wanda went too far, whereas Ansom was not trying to bend Jillian to his will (and this was implied to be preferrable to Jillian).

    So yeah, some limits were breeched.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 18
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:58 am 
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    Honestly, I am completely unsurprised by Jillian's offer. I think everyone saw it coming the moment Wanda and Jillian chose to parley.

    Still, props to the creators for such a nice build-up, and the artwork is kinda starting to grow on me.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 18
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:01 am 
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    I kinda hope Jill croaks soon so I can stop making avatars of her.

    ...not really.

    ...kinda.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 2 – Page 18
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:28 am 
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    Chit Rule Railroad wrote:
    Edit 1: By the way, Wanda doesn't seem to have long-distance telepathic communications with the decrypted, so I doubt the ones outside of earshot would turn away from GK until they hear from her via archonic thinkagram. I wonder, if she sent a thinkagram to a decrypted warlord telling him to turn, and he relayed the order to decrypted infantry, would that really be sufficient? Also, could she order some decrypted to do specific sabotage-y things without immediately leaving GK's side? Sure, Stanley could disband any decrypted that don't turn, but I suspect he would at least have to have Maggie track them down individually and may not be able to disband them long-distance at all.


    Oh please PLEASE let it be called "Order 66" :twisted:
    Would fit perfectly with the Archon's hand-thinkogram.

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