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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 158
 Post Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 8:38 pm 
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CarniDollMancer wrote:
Yeah, it is definitely not cut and dry, that's why I was so insistent that I may not be right, but this is how I see it. And with the guns v traps, I think of it like this: A gun is something that, even if Charlie made them to kill things, is subject to the will of who holds it. A mine, on the other hand, is a trap. Once set, it is part of the terrain and you cannot pretend you set it with any intention other than it going 'boom' eventually. It is set meaning to do harm eventually and unless you disarm it, then the intent it was set with remains. Again, not a certainty, but definitely how I would run the game if it were mine.


Didn't they expressly say that a hit with a gun is an auto-croak? It's hard to imagine how an auto-croak effect is subject to any will but one that intends to croak someone.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 158
     Post Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 9:00 pm 
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    Godzfirefly wrote:
    CarniDollMancer wrote:
    Yeah, it is definitely not cut and dry, that's why I was so insistent that I may not be right, but this is how I see it. And with the guns v traps, I think of it like this: A gun is something that, even if Charlie made them to kill things, is subject to the will of who holds it. A mine, on the other hand, is a trap. Once set, it is part of the terrain and you cannot pretend you set it with any intention other than it going 'boom' eventually. It is set meaning to do harm eventually and unless you disarm it, then the intent it was set with remains. Again, not a certainty, but definitely how I would run the game if it were mine.


    Didn't they expressly say that a hit with a gun is an auto-croak? It's hard to imagine how an auto-croak effect is subject to any will but one that intends to croak someone.

    If a gun hit were an auto-croak, how do you explain Parson and Lilith surviving multiple bullets?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 158
     Post Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 11:52 pm 
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    CarniDollMancer wrote:
    Godzfirefly wrote:
    Didn't they expressly say that a hit with a gun is an auto-croak? It's hard to imagine how an auto-croak effect is subject to any will but one that intends to croak someone.

    If a gun hit were an auto-croak, how do you explain Parson and Lilith surviving multiple bullets?


    Exactly. Claiming the guns instantly croak was a misunderstanding, or perhaps an exaggeration. I'm still not sure there's another purpose to be had with a rifle than shooting to cause damage though, and I think that's the point you were aiming for there(pun intended).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 158
     Post Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 12:09 am 
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    Belrodes wrote:
    CarniDollMancer wrote:
    Godzfirefly wrote:
    Didn't they expressly say that a hit with a gun is an auto-croak? It's hard to imagine how an auto-croak effect is subject to any will but one that intends to croak someone.

    If a gun hit were an auto-croak, how do you explain Parson and Lilith surviving multiple bullets?


    Exactly. Claiming the guns instantly croak was a misunderstanding, or perhaps an exaggeration. I'm still not sure there's another purpose to be had with a rifle than shooting to cause damage though, and I think that's the point you were aiming for there(pun intended).


    Guns look cool and make everything look more cool... so a Signamancy boost? :D

    /EDIT: Everything, except the things that the guns are used on, but otherwise, yeah, cool.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 158
     Post Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 12:44 am 
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    Belrodes wrote:
    CarniDollMancer wrote:
    Godzfirefly wrote:
    Didn't they expressly say that a hit with a gun is an auto-croak? It's hard to imagine how an auto-croak effect is subject to any will but one that intends to croak someone.

    If a gun hit were an auto-croak, how do you explain Parson and Lilith surviving multiple bullets?


    Exactly. Claiming the guns instantly croak was a misunderstanding, or perhaps an exaggeration. I'm still not sure there's another purpose to be had with a rifle than shooting to cause damage though, and I think that's the point you were aiming for there(pun intended).

    My point was to argue against your claim that Lilith shooting herself in the foot with Charlie's gun would be material harm on Charlie's part... Even though the gun is meant to cause damage, the intent to damage in that case would not be his, but Lilith's because she possessed the gun. A trap is made and used by the person who sets it even if set off intentionally, but the gun is made by someone, then used by whoever holds it, and their intent in wielding is what matters, not the fact that it is for damage. A gun's intent can change, whereas a trap cannot. Once more, this is just how it makes sense to me, even though it may not be true on Erf. If a trap is set by CC and triggered by GK, then that is CC's fault. If a gun is made by CC but used by GK to shoot a GK unit, how can that be CC's fault?

    EDIT 2 (which comes before EDIT 1 because I thought of it after, but wanted it to be read right after the end of my initial post.): I mean, the GK unit in question could just choose not to shoot their self (which would pretty much be the required choice anyway cuz of Duty), so if they she had shot herself, it would not have been through intent of Charlie, but intent of Lilith.
    EDIT: well, unless he made that specific gun and left it somewhere intending it to be found and used in a self damaging maneuver... which wouldn't even make tactical sense in any way, but would be a trap.

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    C: Starting a theory from the point of view that characters have given false information (knowingly or unknowingly) is not a valid way to build an argument.


    Last edited by CarniDollMancer on Fri May 13, 2016 1:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 158
     Post Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 12:45 am 
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    illrede wrote:
    Carl wrote:
    Quote:
    Don King also probably would've tried to talk her out of committing suicide. I doubt she could've explained why she was giving away all her shmuckers without revealing her intentions, and then Don would've tried to stop her (probably by having Bunny call everyone near Bea). She might not even have had the resolve to do it, if she'd let a loved one reach out to her. Duty, she must've believed, required her to croak herself without giving anyone the chance to intervene.


    I think you hit the nail on the head. Slately or Don would probably have tried to talk her out of it. Especially Slately, the calendar text with her pinup implies but dosen;t state they may have been involved in a long distance relationship. They were definitely closer personally than any two others in the coalition.


    I think taking the criticism as valid and throws off the perception of something that ought to be clear. We've been told that Bea was as Royalist as anyone was, and we know the situation.

    The treasury went into promoting garrison units to field units, so they would be mass-disbanded in the field when the side fell. Bea was in the middle of her side's last turn, she had just found out that cascade-decryption even existed, and she set out to turn Unaroyal into a fire break, with certainty (serial disbanding of that many sapient units you share a hex with seems uncertain). She did that. It was a scorched earth strategy, implemented to achieve a specific result (firebreak GK's increasing momentum on it's march to victory against the RCC)- and which is more, it worked. She knew what she was doing, she meant to do it, and she got what she wanted out it, and what she wanted to get out of it was assessed as worth the cost (and not just by her- her allies and enemies both). Positing how she could have done it better should not detract that she did it well enough. Stating that she shouldn't have done it requires the situation not to be what it was and the parties involved not to be who they were.

    Well enough?

    Spacerock burned to the ground, Slatley died twice, GK got a shiny new caster, Jack got free of his contract for Charlie, the rocker prince bited it, and Charlie himself ended up forced to make a contract to save the Queen of FAQ's head that ended up filling GK's treasury with thirty million smuckers plus guns, while Charlie lost most of his top archons and his dish connection got severly crippled.

    If Bea had been willing to talk it out, instead of "EVERYBODY DIES", GK would not have millions on the bank, neither guns nor the means the mass-produce them.

    And Trems the new ruler of Jetstone is now negotiating peace/alliance with GK. Yeah, totally worth sacrificing all those lifes to try to stop toolism just for the next royal in the line to decide GK isn't that bad after all.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 158
     Post Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 1:04 am 
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    I've been thinking about this page all week.

    Charlie's "discovery theater" plan is based on keeping his secrets. So, either Vanna knows why she's really there, which kind of spoils the whole plan since she could be captured and interrogated, or she doesn't know.

    If she doesn't know, what's the whole point of the "tee hee, Your Majesty!" routine?

    I think it's a pun.

    She's turning Don King to her side. In the way that stupidworlders would use that phrase.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 158
     Post Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 1:15 am 
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    oslecamo2 temp wrote:
    illrede wrote:
    I think taking the criticism as valid and throws off the perception of something that ought to be clear. We've been told that Bea was as Royalist as anyone was, and we know the situation.

    The treasury went into promoting garrison units to field units, so they would be mass-disbanded in the field when the side fell. Bea was in the middle of her side's last turn, she had just found out that cascade-decryption even existed, and she set out to turn Unaroyal into a fire break, with certainty (serial disbanding of that many sapient units you share a hex with seems uncertain). She did that. It was a scorched earth strategy, implemented to achieve a specific result (firebreak GK's increasing momentum on it's march to victory against the RCC)- and which is more, it worked. She knew what she was doing, she meant to do it, and she got what she wanted out it, and what she wanted to get out of it was assessed as worth the cost (and not just by her- her allies and enemies both). Positing how she could have done it better should not detract that she did it well enough. Stating that she shouldn't have done it requires the situation not to be what it was and the parties involved not to be who they were.

    Well enough?

    Spacerock burned to the ground, Slatley died twice, GK got a shiny new caster, Jack got free of his contract for Charlie, the rocker prince bited it, and Charlie himself ended up forced to make a contract to save the Queen of FAQ's head that ended up filling GK's treasury with thirty million smuckers plus guns, while Charlie lost most of his top archons and his dish connection got severly crippled.

    If Bea had been willing to talk it out, instead of "EVERYBODY DIES", GK would not have millions on the bank, neither guns nor the means the mass-produce them.

    And Trems the new ruler of Jetstone is now negotiating peace/alliance with GK. Yeah, totally worth sacrificing all those lifes to try to stop toolism just for the next royal in the line to decide GK isn't that bad after all.

    That was the result, and I don't think anyone will deny it was bad, but it still could have been a lot worse if she had done otherwise. With Ansom and Wanda on the front, it is entirely possible that nothing she said would have saved her from being steamrolled, resulting in a GK gain of a Carny, a Turner, and a Findamancer (and maybe RVC), plus the troops (including Leadership and Heavies and stuff)... Which they would have then taken to Spacerock, against a Slately who is just as pissed as the first time, but now has no hope without Charlie's full intervention. A scenario which also has massive fallout.

    I think "Well enough" is meant to say that things could have gone worse and she probably significantly decreased the speed of GK's ascent to power, by denying them tons of troops, some sweet Casters, and a lot of extra Leadership (with no upkeep), right before they marched on Jetstone's capital. Is there something you think Bea could have done that would have hindered GK in any better way? (besides submit to Toolism, which would not have made sense for her character)

    EDIT: Not to mention that if Bea doesn't cede the Kingdom and send her Casters to the EmKay, there is no Vanna to cast Kingworld, and GeeKay just curbstomps Jetstone and takes their 'shiny new casters.' Unless Charlie steps in with a contract to save someone.

    That would have left them with the following (all in various states of First/Second Popping):

    Shittons of troops, including various Heavies (Dwagons, Gumps, Golems of a couple types, whatever Unaroyal used) and Fliers (Dwagons, Unipegataurs, Archons from TBfGK, Orlies, whtever Unaroyal used)
    Casters: Think, Dirt, Fool, Croak, Find, Turn, Carny, Heal, Doll, Hat, Ditto (And possibly RVC)
    All the Leadership.
    'Pliers
    'Hammer

    GK does lose Parson gaining knowledge of Charlie in this situation, cuz no dead Jack (although they may still get it cuz of a possible dead Jillian). They also probably miss out on the Juggles because they are way too powerful to be in a position where losing a stack of Knights could end the side (then again Stanley is always a Wild Card and could just go out underequipped anyway, I suppose).

    In terms of Linkups, which we all know Parson would then be toying with all over the place, that would give them this number of Casters in each axis and element, not counting those who may be talented across disciplines (Added RVC, and Janis and Marie (cuz at least Marie would be on their side either way, and she seems to have Janis convinced too) in parenthesis, for a true view of how bad it could have gotten if Bea had done something else and it went sideways cuz... Wanda. For the purpose of counting access to each axis, Janis and RVC each count on all three for having cross discipline training that we are positive of):

    Life:5(8)
    Motion:7(8)
    Matter:5(6)
    (Plus Pierce, with no Elemental Alignment)
    Erf:4(6)
    Fate:5(7)
    Numbers:2(3)
    (Plus Parson's Bracer to help with the deficit of Numbers Casters)

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    C: Starting a theory from the point of view that characters have given false information (knowingly or unknowingly) is not a valid way to build an argument.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 158
     Post Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 3:26 am 
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    Also, if GK stomped Bea AND took the casters, there isn't Jo Jo the carnymancer messing up GK's position in MK. In fact Parson needn't have entered MK at all. Also, Parson would learn that Decrypted casters can cast much earlier.

    (Also, if they straight-crush Jetstone, Ossomer might not have had the opportunity to turn, leaving GK with that much more Archons.)

    Which leaves GK these additional casters:
    Changemancer, Carnymancer, Turnamancer, Hat-a-mancer, Healomancer, Dittomancer

    In addition, Jillian would not have a Turnamancer to convert that Warlord. Even if he turned anyway, there'd be no Vanna to turn Vurp, so Jillian dies. Or Charlie's deal with Parson would be much more tilted towards GK, which has more knock-off effects..

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 158
     Post Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 5:00 am 
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    Belrodes wrote:
    CarniDollMancer wrote:
    Godzfirefly wrote:
    Didn't they expressly say that a hit with a gun is an auto-croak? It's hard to imagine how an auto-croak effect is subject to any will but one that intends to croak someone.

    If a gun hit were an auto-croak, how do you explain Parson and Lilith surviving multiple bullets?


    Exactly. Claiming the guns instantly croak was a misunderstanding, or perhaps an exaggeration. I'm still not sure there's another purpose to be had with a rifle than shooting to cause damage though, and I think that's the point you were aiming for there(pun intended).

    What it meant by instantly croak, is that the bullets travel really fast. Not that "these things kill hit 1 hit"

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 158
     Post Posted: Fri May 13, 2016 11:52 am 
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    There's all these NDA. Is Parson allowed to tell Don King that he is fated to kill Charlie (whether it's true or not or even if he believes it or not) ?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 158
     Post Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:16 pm 
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    The guy on the far left is performing an unauthorised Charlie Chaplin routine (The Oceana Roll Dance).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZGHR7J1lUQ

    Would have brought this up earlier, but I assumed wrongly that TheCommander's post had already mentioned it on page 2.
    Thecommander236 wrote:
    Spoiler: show
    kaylasdad99 wrote:
    Slayorious wrote:
    I'm so happy that I get to be the first one to point out Kiss-shot Acerola-orion Heart-under-blade is one of the Transylvitian vampires.

    And I'm happy for you.

    Also, Bwuhhh? Translation: No clue what you're talking about.


    I had to look it up, but that's what you get if you look up "Kiss-shot Acerola-orion Heart-under-blade". Appartently the name is Shinobu Oshino. Honestly, I don't think he's right. That vampire already has a name. It's Cheri. Plus she looks more like Princess Peach here with that necklace and dress.

    Spoiler: show
    Image

    I mean just look at all these links! You'd expect with so many that there'd be at least one leading to the Simpsons or Charlie Chaplin, but no!

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