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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 285
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:35 am 
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Chiu ChunLing wrote:
P.S. The whole "something even worse" mechanic is yet another narrative reason for Roger to succeed in sending Parson back to Stupidworld, only for Parson to return with friends...and maybe a few other things found in Stupidworld.

But we all know that Erfworld's original home was under "Order of the Stick", so Parson will arrive in OOTS world, where he will briefly meet and argue with Miko, but then the Inter-Fiend Cooperation Commission will offer him a portal back for "free" but Miko is "accidently" taken with him back to Erfworld.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 285
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:43 am 
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    MrYar wrote:
    Roger is allowed to be wrong and in fact in a narrative sense he must be so (because he has taken up an antagonistic role to Parson, the protagonist.) You can argue what convictions he holds that may be wrong (that Parson is worse than Charlie, that Thinkamancy is the Purest form of Magic, that the Arkentools would do better in Royalist hands etc.) but you don't get to argue the strength of those convictions. That's something only Roger gets to decide.

    Others have explained why your other points are wrong, but I think this one is you misunderstanding what I'm saying - I don't object to Roger's opinion from a narrative perspective, if that's what you're thinking. He can have whatever opinion is necessary for the story with no objections from me.

    The logic behind that opinion is what I'm talking about, and the implications of that logic being wrong (in the sense that his conclusion could still be either true or false) isn't that the story is badly told, but that Roger could be depending on something which will eventually blow up in his face.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 285
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:01 am 
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    multilis wrote:
    But we all know that Erfworld's original home was under "Order of the Stick", so Parson will arrive in OOTS world, where he will briefly meet and argue with Miko, but then the Inter-Fiend Cooperation Commission will offer him a portal back for "free" but Miko is "accidently" taken with him back to Erfworld.


    Tell me that she dyed her hair blonde and renamed herself as Jillian and I would totally believe you. The titans commands me to slash Stanley, slash, slash!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 285
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:40 am 
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    Does anyone else think Ben looks as though he is casting in that first picture? I'm sure Maggie used to look like that.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 285
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:20 pm 
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    I for one don't buy rogers theory that the predictamancers create the prediction with some kind of construct they don't realize they're making.

    On the other hand, I'm all for the concept of freewill, even in Erfworld. As Parson has displayed the ability of freewill to violate the rules of Erfworld, then freewill must exist. (Remember when he used profanity without getting booped.)
    Of course, if Parson can do it, why can't the Erfworlders? They probably can, but they are so used to following fate and always being under the dominion of the rules, they don't have the insight or experience to overcome it. Still, it's possible that some individual units on a very rare occasion have done so. Rather than opening a door of possibilities to them, it was more likely seen as a bizarre occurrence that they are unable to replicate.

    Still none of this really explains Fate and Predictions, but I think it points us in the right direction.
    Remember that Erfworld is essentially a game created by the Titans. The people in Erfworld aren't the players, they are the units, just pieces of the game itself.
    So the Titans are actually playing the game, or were. I don't think the Titans are Fate, but rather Fate is part of Erfworld itself. It's the referee, the GM, the rules. It enforces the decisions of the players, the Titans, so the game will proceed smoothly. In that aspect it applies a usually subtle set of controls and influence to urge units to move the way they are supposed to. All Erfworlders have been exposed to this their entire lives and know nothing else, so it's influence is just a natural thing to them, and not something they can seriously imagine violating any more than acting out of turn.

    So back to the predictions of the predictamancers. It's possible that the Titans have already played moves, and Erfworld just has to enact them. In which case a predictamencer is essentially reading the to-do list of Erfworld. (Think of a command queue.)
    Or it could be they are units that can do something along the lines of play Fate Cards to influence the game. They do a prediction, draw the card, and they learn what card they drew, in the form of a prediction, and the Fate begins to enforce that new command for the game. This means they may have set it in motion, but they don't get to chose what it is, they just get foreknowledge of what will happen in some form.

    Ok, I used the card example since it's a game reference I'm sure you're probably familiar with. Or at least if you've played something like Hearthstone, Magic the Gathering, or even Fluxx. (Fluxx is a blast and the cards are always changing the rules, which is why it has that name.)

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     Post subject: Character Development?
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:38 pm 
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    Parson of Battle of Gobwin Gnob- Fights an excellent war of attrition, pulls a victory out with last minute rules-breaking from his years as a gamer.

    Parson of the Battle of Spacerock- Turns a near certain defeat into victory by exploiting the grandiose enemy's tendency to gloat/parley and some gravity/Decrypting Tactics he'd given a lot of thought to.

    Parson of the Battle of Portal Park- swept along by Wanda commanding a mighty dance battle. Actually holds a sword, doesn't really contribute all that much, although maybe his impromptu Musicmancy added a +1 or something. Does manage to bilk Charlie for 40 million, but that was Jack's quick thinking and Marie having forseen the need for a really expensive mass healing scroll. Parson gets some points for having the grit to keep talking whats-her-face, the Archon everyone likes but has been tied to a pole for so long I can't even remember her name, anyway talking her through a grim situation she was thinking suicide might be the best option for her new side into a WAY better course, where she reached her max potential.

    Parson of Transylvito- Gets tortured a lot. Waits for others to check in, tries to hatch plans. Does what jewelry tells him to do because reasons.

    Heroes are allowed to have down moments I guess, but Parson's awesome-o-meter isn't the highest it's ever been right now. But when the whole thing is done I bet it will be fun to blast through at high speed.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 285
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:00 pm 
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    Erfworld Book 3 Page 285 wrote:
    Benjamin (who had the Signamancy of America's first great inventor and scientist) figured out on his own how the bracer worked and also that it could answer questions it shouldn't be able to know.


    Parson continues to collect his cluebat beating from Benjamin Franchise's Signamancy.

    MrYar wrote:
    Sir Tanely wrote:
    I like the way it lines up with the bracer being brighter than usual, but it'd be odd if Roger haphazardly guessed the exact correct number.


    It'd be a coincidence. You know what else is a coincidence? A burning pillar falling on Parson right as he's about to finish reading the scroll.

    I believe the saying goes that once is a coincidence, twice is a pattern.
    There's also the Moscow Rules variant in which once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, and thrice is a conspiracy.


    The earliest variant I've encountered is from Ian Flemming's 1959 novel Goldfinger: "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it’s enemy action."

    Skull the Troll wrote:
    Zeal wrote:
    Mecharic wrote:
    I'm calling it now, the spell will break the portal because Fate demands such and whenever Carnimancy is involved there's always room for error right? 1/8 can become 1/1 really quickly, we don't actually *need* the Dollamancer for that.

    I'm pretty sure that Parson is going to be sent back to Stupidworld and pick up the Arkenshoes. I've been a proponent of that for a long time, but the real clincher in this update is that Parson now considers Erfworld his home. Factoring in the "There's No Place Like Home" ability of the Arkenshoes, that's Parson's ticket back to Erfworld.

    I really don't want a book full of Parson in Stupidworld though trying to break into the National museum of American History like some National treasure knock-off.


    Actually, checking the news indicates they're not in the NMAH at the moment. They were "removed for conservation" back in April. :geek: That link also suggests that they were "donated anonymously to the museum in 1979"... perhaps when Judy Gale came back.

    Contrariwise, those are purportedly one of several that were apparently created by Gilbert Adrian, MGM’s chief costume designer and used in the movie. Some others are apparently in collections elsewhere, that might be more or less guarded.

    Nohow, Parson doesn't want Garland's slippers; he want's Judy Gale's Arkenshoes. My guess is that she and the Arkenshoes are quietly waiting in a retirement home somewhere in the Stupidworld US Midwest.

    Axiom wrote:
    5. Spell is cast, but doesn't take Parson back to Earth. I'll admit that it's possible, but I definitely consider this to be the least likely possibility by a long shot (even though the forums seems to favor it). Remember, the spell is made by Charlie. I'd be really surprised if Charlie would hand a teleportation scroll that potentially doesn't remove Parson from the board. Knowing Charlie, the scroll is probably programmed to transport Parson to Parson's home address, Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, Dimension C-137.
    5A. Parson warps to Spacerock because Stanley is there.
    5B. Parson warps to ICFYS because it's the city formerly known as GK.
    5C. Parson warps to Transylvito because Maggie and Jack are there.

    6. Spell is cast, and Parson goes to Earth.


    There's also a subcase of case 6; he goes to Earth, but instead of HIS earth, he ends up at Judy Gale's.

    Adept wrote:
    I'd prefer to avoid any return to his old reality really.


    But how else are his old gaming group going to be recruited?

    Adept wrote:
    Now, I'd actually prefer that Parson wouldn't get the shoes. They could empower an interesting antagonist or 3rd party, which would be much more interesting than our favorite wargamer getting a new superpower.


    Those aren't mutually exclusive. As demonstrated with the bracer, "get" is not the same as "keep".

    greycat wrote:
    MrYar wrote:
    How is it unwarranted that Roger really believes in this explanation which has obviously been the result of nigh-scientific study done by himself/his peers and incorporates elements of magic all along the fate axis to make sense of what Predictamancers do?

    The hypothesis put forward by Roger is not verifiable. The entities which are alleged to perform these actions are "unobservable".

    This is the exact opposite of science. Science requires that experiments be performed to distinguish between competing hypotheses.

    Roger's "dictums" are basically the same as the "angels" which were believed to push the planets around the sun a few centuries ago.


    Well, Popper suggests "not verifiable" would be more exactly presented "unfalsifiable".

    However, dealing with unobservables isn't "the exact opposite of science" when you're inferring the existence of unobservables from observed phenomena conjecturally associated; particle physics can give several examples. The question then becomes one of whether the hypothesis is falsifiable... or at least, formally parsimonious.

    (My own prejudices are that the dictum conjecture seems to involve excessively personification to its teleology; more parsimonious explanations should be possible.)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 285
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:26 pm 
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    abb3w wrote:
    Nohow, Parson doesn't want Garland's slippers; he want's Judy Gale's Arkenshoes.

    Apropos nothing, more Ruby Slippers in recent news.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 285
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:08 pm 
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    Free Radical wrote:
    The logic behind that opinion is what I'm talking about, and the implications of that logic being wrong (in the sense that his conclusion could still be either true or false) isn't that the story is badly told, but that Roger could be depending on something which will eventually blow up in his face.


    That I agree with. All of these updates where we know that Roger's up to no good and how he's maneuvering everyone into a situation where he can try to get Parson to GTFO have been building tension. Something blowing up in Roger's face would be a spectacular and satisfying release to that tension.

    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    Adept wrote:
    Stupidworld is where Parson came from, that's his origin story and our viewpoint / context for the Erfworld story. I sincerely hope to never see it again, aside from possibly some post scriptum stuff at the end.
    See, this I can't understand. Why shouldn't we want to touch back on Parson's origins? Or rather, how can we not want to see Stupidworld again?


    The main reason is that this is focused in Erfworld and a return to Stupidworld would be a major departure from that focus.
    I wouldn't mind a brief glimpse at some point to help add to the framing of the story (you do raise interesting questions) but Stupidworld should be kept to a minimum. Parson doesn't need Stupidworld knowledge to fix Erfworld's foreverwar, he needs more Erfworld knowledge. Imagine if he knew about Charlie's Chicken hack?

    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    Um...Roger allowing himself to be Carnied to the degree where he is literally delusional at all times (whether using the set of delusions where he isn't Carnied or the delusions that this is a good thing that allows him to see truths nobody else can see) does not speak well of his judgment even before he allowed himself to be Carnied. And after being Carnied, it's inappropriate to speak of Roger's judgment at all, he's clearly just Jojo's meat-puppet.


    I don't buy the 'Heavily Carnied' theory. I don't doubt that Jojo has messed with Roger a bit but I don't think it's anywhere near the 'Jojo's meat-puppet' extent.
    First because it diminishes Roger as a character. The more influence Jojo has over Roger's actions the less interesting those actions become.
    Second, it escalates Jojo's threat level to that of Charlie's which begs the question 'if Jojo is just as dangerous as Charlie, why is he working with Charlie instead of being another Charlie?' Jojo has not displayed the same amount of pure cunning that Charlie has.
    For one I mean, everyone knows Jojo's a carnymancer.

    Thirdly...

    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    When you're Carnied, the strength of your beliefs is something that the Carny gets to decide. That's pretty much canon.

    This matters because the entire point of RVC's "luck golem" theory is that it provides a theoretical justification for trying to directly falsify a Prediction. So the main empirical evidence that would support it is instances in which a Prediction was falsified. But what we've seen time and time again (and Predictamancers see even more) is that even when it appears that you've falsified a Prediction, it comes true anyway, all the more obnoxiously for those who wanted it falsified. Roger clearly doesn't believe this theory based on evidence, nor on faith in his discipline, but because he's been Carnied.


    False, Carnymancy can only go so far.
    Hvs.tCF_87 wrote:
    She thinks I can come to M.K. b/c some Carnymancy (from Fate maybe?) convinced me I could. I doubt it. Why not "convince" me I am immune to volcanoes? She says it's impossible for me to believe that. Like suggestion spells can break if they go too far. Foolamancy can't make you think a pebble is a mountain.


    Carnymancy, like Foolamancy, is best used subtly. Turning Roger into a 'Meat-puppet' is about a subtle as Jack's 'Stanley' and 'ErfLife' blimp veil back in book 1.

    Has Roger been carnied? Yes. Heavily? Probably. Is he a meat-puppet? No. It wouldn't surprise me if all Jojo did was push the 'Parson is a bigger threat than Charlie' belief and kept pushing it every chance he got. That would be a pretty interesting and subtle manipulation consistent with Jojo's modus operandi shown so far.

    As for Roger's theory, you're right in that it provides a justification for proving Predictamencer's wrong but it's also used to justify Roger's intention to create a naughty-dictum. It serves both as foundation and worldbuilding to tie into the action of 'Roger has decided he's going on a suicide mission to get Parson.'

    However it wouldn't make sense for Jojo to push Roger's theory, considering that it's chief stipulation is 'Predictamancer's and Carnymancer's are wrong, Fate doesn't exist.'
    Reading back over the discussion between Roger and Jojo in Hvs.tCF_255 it actually seems like Jojo might have been casting to get Roger to back off from his original plan based on that theory and use the Scroll instead. Which would mean that said theory is a deeply held Belief for Roger that Carnymancy couldn't overcome.
    Which means Jojo doesn't have as much influence over Roger as if Roger were his 'Meat-puppet.'

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 285
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:19 pm 
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    I'm surprised people want Parson's gaming group on Erf.

    As far as the story goes, they are non-entities. He's a gamer, hence there needed to be a group. We know nothing about them, other than that Parson had a bit of a crush on one of them.

    The comic has massive cast of characters. Why would we want to add an extra bunch of Stupidworlders who'd have to acclimate and get over their culture shock like Parson.

    One of him is special. Judy and Charlie give context, and show he's not the only one the world has ever seen. His player group showing up would distort the whole story IMO, and really screw up the tone.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 285
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:41 pm 
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    I'll pay eight rands for a Findamancer to help find my brain, because not only did I miss the "seemed to glow a little brighter than usual", but I completely misinterpreted the last sentence too.

    I interpreted Roger stating he was casting Foolamancy to be in reference to what he said to Bill. So I assumed Roger just meant that while Parson did agree to link up, he would have liked to have known what the odds of success actually were, since he couldn't veil Bill and use Lookamancy on the bracer at the same time.

    But not leaving things up to chance and changing the display to get what he wants makes more sense I think.

    I'm not sold on the idea that's been running around the thread that the reason for the brighter glow is because Roger's Foolamancy and the actual bracer reading is the same. Them being the exact same number would be way too coincidental (though not impossible). But mostly I doubt this theory because if Roger was going to put a fake number over Parson's bracer, why would he allow the numbers underneath to still be visible? If the numbers were off at all, both numbers would show up and look like a messed up solar calculator or digital watch, and draw Parson's attention to it even more than the glowing did.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 285
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:11 pm 
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    Jade wrote:
    I'll pay eight rands for a Findamancer to help find my brain, because not only did I miss the "seemed to glow a little brighter than usual", but I completely misinterpreted the last sentence too.

    I interpreted Roger stating he was casting Foolamancy to be in reference to what he said to Bill. So I assumed Roger just meant that while Parson did agree to link up, he would have liked to have known what the odds of success actually were, since he couldn't veil Bill and use Lookamancy on the bracer at the same time.

    But not leaving things up to chance and changing the display to get what he wants makes more sense I think.

    I'm not sold on the idea that's been running around the thread that the reason for the brighter glow is because Roger's Foolamancy and the actual bracer reading is the same. Them being the exact same number would be way too coincidental (though not impossible). But mostly I doubt this theory because if Roger was going to put a fake number over Parson's bracer, why would he allow the numbers underneath to still be visible? If the numbers were off at all, both numbers would show up and look like a messed up solar calculator or digital watch, and draw Parson's attention to it even more than the glowing did.
    Yeah, I think it was slow, and then too bright, because Roger's illusion was imperfect.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 285
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:03 pm 
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    So... should we just assume the comic only updates on Fridays now?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 285
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:58 pm 
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    Pro. bub. lee.

    Nah JK it totes skips randomly on Fridays too!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 285
     Post Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:04 am 
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    hello anxiety my old friend

    time to worry that rob is dead again

    the highest tier on the toolshed comes with monthly antacid

    burns all night

    this is the sound of silence

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 285
     Post Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:14 am 
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    Beeskee wrote:
    hello anxiety my old friend

    time to wonder if rob is dead again

    the highest tier of support comes with a subscription of antacid


    Is it bad that I actually tried to sing that to the referenced tune?

    Let me try...

    Hello "unknown" my old friend,
    I stare into you once again.
    For a friend I know that is missing
    And that his site is not updating
    And the post, that Erfworld now displays
    Been up for days
    Whispers the word
    "Hiatus".
    And the fans all shout "not true!"
    "He's not gone he'll update soon"
    And at this point I've lost the tune.
    Rhythm rhyme and just now the mood.
    ...
    Yeah, that's all I got.


    It is so late I have no idea if I'm even got the meter right. It sounds right when I try to sing it so, meh.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 285
     Post Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:15 am 
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    Yeah that's what I was going for hehe. I edited my attempts further, it's a little better now, but I like yours more. ♥

    If Rob posted a hiatus message, I missed it.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 285
     Post Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:14 am 
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    Arci wrote:
    Beeskee wrote:
    hello anxiety my old friend

    time to wonder if rob is dead again

    the highest tier of support comes with a subscription of antacid


    Is it bad that I actually tried to sing that to the referenced tune?

    Let me try...

    Hello "unknown" my old friend,
    I stare into you once again.
    For a friend I know that is missing
    And that his site is not updating
    And the post, that Erfworld now displays
    Been up for days
    Whispers the word
    "Hiatus".
    And the fans all shout "not true!"
    "He's not gone he'll update soon"
    And at this point I've lost the tune.
    Rhythm rhyme and just now the mood.
    ...
    Yeah, that's all I got.


    It is so late I have no idea if I'm even got the meter right. It sounds right when I try to sing it so, meh.


    Amateur Rhyme-o-mancer here (prolly of Ace level); let me take a crack at it.

    Hello, Erfworld, my old friend,
    I've come to refresh you again,
    Because a vision of you updating,
    Came to me while I was sleeping,
    And the update, that I thought would appear,
    it was not there,
    It still remains in Rob's brain.

    Through cold dark sites I browse alone,
    On my laptop or on my phone,
    Beneath the blue glow of my LEDs,
    I pray the Titans "Update Please!"
    When my eyes, beheld a familiar sight,
    Another forum fight,
    While we wait, for Updates.

    And with my screen's backlight I saw
    A dozen users, maybe more
    Users talking about theories
    (A few posting without thinking),
    Some writing, an Erf version of a famous song,
    'Cause, it won't be long,
    Until we get, that Update.

    I said "Now while I do sublime,
    That epic song of mete and rhyme,
    I am but a lowly Lurkamance(r)
    Who found this thread by mere happenstance,
    Yet I toiled, to write down every word, for I was bored,
    Waiting for, the Update.

    And the users danced and swayed,
    To the satire songs they made,
    The refresh button laid to waste-
    Look, a message from Rob was placed,
    In bold letters,
    "TODAY WAS A SKIP DAY,
    WAIT 'TIL FRIDAY,
    TO COME AND SEE, THE UPDATE."

    *acoustic guitar flourish*

    _________________
    Master Class Lurkamancer!


    Feel free to browse my Erfworld Fan Art!
    Adventures in WonderErf Part 1 Part 2 | Velveteen Bunny | Fan Comic
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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 285
     Post Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:10 am 
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    Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    Haha you guys make it more bearable.

    I still don't understand what's so hard to take a few seconds to write something "Hi everyone no update today, see you on Friday!"

    Do you hate us author?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 285
     Post Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:17 am 
    Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter Has collected at least one unit This user is a Tool!
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    Posts: 68
    The answer is trust.

    The point is: Rob needs not to be thinking about how to keep his audience happy. He needs to be thinking about how to tell the story he wants to tell.

    The point is: we are here for the story Rob wants to tell, not the story we want to be told - because Rob is a better author than we are.

    So... Rob has however many thousands of people hanging on the edge of their seat for the next update. And he gets out of bed, and he has to do human stuff, like take a shower and make breakfast, and just like you or I would feel, there's a voice in his head going 'what the hell? I'm just a dude! What makes my stuff so special?'. So the next step is to think 'so I need to write something extra-good to make them happy'.

    And that's the thing: that 'extra-good' is less good than the story he was going to tell if he wasn't trying to please us. And Rob's a good enough writer to know it. So he knows he needs to break the cycle.

    Hence the skips, hence the unannounced skips. He tells his story best if he forgets about the audience and just focuses on the story he wants to tell.

    Hence trust: when we let a skip go by without complaining, what we're saying is 'yes, you're right, don't think about the audience, think about the story. That's what we're here for'.

    When Erfworld doesn't update, Rob doesn't get paid, and - which I suspect is much more painful to him - the team doesn't get paid either. He's made his compact with us: he will update as frequently as he can, and he'll only take money for when he does. Our compact with him is: we're here to hear what he has to say. It's about his story, not about us.

    That's what I think anyway. And I'm happy with that compact.
    You're doing the right thing, Rob.

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