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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 278
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:51 am 
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Chiu ChunLing wrote:
Wanda's kuutsunyandere layers are hardly new, but it's interesting that she's willing to show her dere side in front of such newly decrypted.

Ok, what does that word mean? Google was no help at all (that's a surprise).

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 278
     Post Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:55 am 
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    HighJumper wrote:
    Frozen Northman wrote:
    I think Claud's coloration is an extension of both his current Signamancy and his recent linkup with Ivan.

    It shows he's been taken for granite.


    On behalf of my Geology TA, I must respond with the following despite how many people may not understand the pronunciation:

    Gneiss.



    Can this sub-thread just die, alright? :-)

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    "We will fire the unhappy until morale improves!"
    It really speaks to how awful RVC's plan is that immolating himself first would improve the odds of success.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 278
     Post Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:03 am 
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    keybounce wrote:
    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    Wanda's kuutsunyandere layers are hardly new, but it's interesting that she's willing to show her dere side in front of such newly decrypted.

    Ok, what does that word mean? Google was no help at all (that's a surprise).

    Sounds like a combination of a bunch of different words used to describe character types.

    Kuudere: They seem distant or emotionless, but are sweet and affectionate once you get to know them

    Tsundere: They seem unpleasant and standoffish, but are sweet and affectionate once you get to know them.

    Yandere: They seem sweet and affectionate, but are clingy, jealous, and crazy (sometimes ax-crazy) once you get to know them.

    They're Japanese words and are usually used to describe anime girls.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 278
     Post Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:18 am 
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    Horatio Von Becker wrote:
    Caprice wrote:
    Awww, did Wanda just comfort the doll into not crying anymore? With a hug? <3

    I'm curious if this is "really" Isaac or just the most advanced cloth golem ever created.

    Oh. Claud did get the wish of all Dollamancers. A living (casting!) unit that was once a Doll.

    Action figure.

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     Post subject: Title change?
     Post Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:04 am 
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    Didn't this episode get titled "The Attuned is a Harsh Mistress" ( a take on The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, by Robert Heinlein)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 278
     Post Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:36 am 
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    keybounce wrote:
    HighJumper wrote:
    Frozen Northman wrote:
    I think Claud's coloration is an extension of both his current Signamancy and his recent linkup with Ivan.

    It shows he's been taken for granite.


    On behalf of my Geology TA, I must respond with the following despite how many people may not understand the pronunciation:

    Gneiss.



    Can this sub-thread just die, alright? :-)


    Only a real piece of schist would take away our Geology puns! And anybody who even tries quartz death.

    So let's talc this through before somebody gets chert.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 278
     Post Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:58 am 
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    paddywagon man wrote:
    Only a real piece of schist would take away our Geology puns! And anybody who even tries quartz death.

    So let's talc this through before somebody gets chert.

    Enough is enough! No mohs, no mohs!

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 278
     Post Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:21 pm 
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    Ozamataz Buckshank wrote:
    keybounce wrote:
    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    Wanda's kuutsunyandere layers are hardly new, but it's interesting that she's willing to show her dere side in front of such newly decrypted.

    Ok, what does that word mean? Google was no help at all (that's a surprise).

    Sounds like a combination of a bunch of different words used to describe character types.

    Kuudere: They seem distant or emotionless, but are sweet and affectionate once you get to know them

    Tsundere: They seem unpleasant and standoffish, but are sweet and affectionate once you get to know them.

    Yandere: They seem sweet and affectionate, but are clingy, jealous, and crazy (sometimes ax-crazy) once you get to know them.

    They're Japanese words and are usually used to describe anime girls.
    Basically.

    There are a bunch of Dere (affectionate) types, Tsun (standoffish) is the most popular, but Wanda is far more Kuu (distant, aloof) and Yan (axe crazy). Jillian is the tsundere, with a touch of Yan (and basically zero or perhaps negative Kuu).

    There are different ways to define the contrast in character behavior, the most important are time evolution and intimacy of situation or relationship. A tsundere might be someone who initially is standoffish but eventually becomes affectionate (usually when she gets to know you, rather than the reverse), someone who is standoffish in public or groups but becomes affectionate when alone together, someone who is standoffish to most people but is affectionate to one (or a few), or any combination of those.

    Yandere have the opposite time progression because their Yan phase represents the deterioration or failure of a Dere relationship, but their intimacy defined patterns are more similar than not to other Dere types (more intimacy means more Dere, less means more Yan).

    Anyway, the meaning of what I was saying is that Wanda seems to have developed her Kuu aspect to the point where it doesn't apparently bother her to have Ivan look up her skirt or to act casually maternal in front of Ivan and Claud, as long as it's for a clear reason. In other words she's being so aloof that she doesn't bother even trying to act aloof.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 278
     Post Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:51 pm 
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    Frozen Northman wrote:
    I think Claud's coloration is an extension of both his current Signamancy and his recent linkup with Ivan.

    It shows he's been taken for granite.


    I enjoyed the humor. I think the differences in coloring is the change in artist..?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 278
     Post Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:07 pm 
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    keybounce wrote:
    Can this sub-thread just die, alright? :-)

    No one in particular wrote:
    Enough is enough! No mohs, no mohs!


    Others started and expanded the idea, but I claim some of the fault; I didn't realize my pun would transverse the pun limit and thrust us out of normal conversation.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 278
     Post Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:17 pm 
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    HighJumper wrote:
    Others started and expanded the idea, but I claim some of the fault; I didn't realize my pun would transverse the pun limit and thrust us out of normal conversation.

    As long as we're all in agreement that we've been subducted to enough punnery.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 278
     Post Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:18 pm 
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    Chiu ChunLing wrote:
    ... Wanda seems to have developed her Kuu aspect to the point where ... she's being so aloof that she doesn't bother even trying to act aloof.

    Yeah, that makes sense. Of course this trait is not innate: it is a result of much loss and pain. (And since Jillian knows and has shared some of that, she's the closest thing Wanda has to a confidant.)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 278
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:02 am 
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    Well, Wanda was a bit less reactive right from the start (of Book 0). It took a good bit of prodding to show her emotions (or thoughts). But certainly her ability to further suppress her responses has deepened...partly by managing when she expresses herself.

    But this has been a longish turn, and while she did express her feelings towards Charlie, she was holding plenty in reserve. I wonder if she's caught a glimpse of that bigger picture she's always seeking.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 278
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:51 am 
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    Hmmm. I always get a bit uncomfortable around this kind of personality profiling... I mean, in this case, I have issues with the system generally, because it seems to confuse behaviours that arise from the underlying psychology (e.g. 'affectionate', 'withdrawn') with psychology.

    'Affectionate' is a way in which you react to a given situation, because of who you are, not a definition of who you are. People are not toys who reward you if you play with them right.

    But leaving that aside - because I am probably poorly representing a system I will happily agree I really don't understand - I have issues with any kind of personality modelling system, because, well, people are just more complex than that.

    I mean: do you think you could come up with a workable personality categorisation system for cats? Because cats have personalities, for sure. And that seems like it would be a useful thing to have, right? So you can place cats into suitable homes where they'll be happy?

    So if one of those doesn't exist - and as far as I'm aware it doesn't - for cats, then what the hell makes us think we can come up with one that works for even normal everyday humans?

    And Wanda, of course is not (A) normal, (B) everyday, or (C) human. She doesn't even live in Stupidworld! Of course she's also not (D) real... but that's the point of this game, isn't it? Rob makes some lines on a monitor dance and speak, and we judge whether or not we think they're convincingly human.

    So... what kind of person do you have to be, to say something like "Grief is not a particularly helpful thing... but I understand it"? And then to comfort the doll involved? How do you have to feel, for that to be something that comes naturally?

    That she does it in front of her minions/tools/colleagues/fellows/friends... yeah. I think to imagine that it could even cross her mind to care what Claud and Ivan think of her, is a gross misunderstanding of Wanda.

    In her mind, like everyone else, they're dust that hasn't stopped moving yet. With her magic sense, the first, the strongest thing she perceives about a person is the nature of their body, the strings she could pull to animate them, if their life was cut. She sees the puppets in the people - and the beautiful, magical candle flame of their lives which is the only thing separating them from the uncroaked... and which she knows will gutter out a brief instant from now. Why would you care about the opinion of someone who will be dead next second? Why would you worry whether the flame gutters out next second, or this one?

    But you grieve for it... oh, you grieve.

    That is my reading of Wanda. Tragic heroine? Victim? Monster? They are all facets of the same dark crystal - the only thing that changes is perspective.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 278
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:07 am 
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    Ansan Gotti wrote:
    Sorry, I'm not seeing caterpillar or cockroach in the Binding of Isaac figure. What am I missing?


    I actually hope they're right and I'm wrong, but I'm seeing more of a "Muppet" effect where the lower half of the body are just psuedo-limbs; not functional, but there to leave an impression of a full body, much like you see on puppet shows.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 278
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:47 pm 
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    I just thought the dolls was curled up in the fetal position the whole time so you never really see it's lower half. Just looks like a naked pink doll man.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 278
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:15 pm 
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    khamul wrote:
    Hmmm. I always get a bit uncomfortable around this kind of personality profiling... I mean, in this case, I have issues with the system generally, because it seems to confuse behaviours that arise from the underlying psychology (e.g. 'affectionate', 'withdrawn') with psychology.

    I appreciate everything you're saying here, but these terms aren't intended to be psychological profiles - they're tropes, used often enough (at least in anime) that they got their own terminology. Certainly nobody is arguing that Wanda fits any particular trope - that's why Chiu gave her the (German-inspired) compound term that includes every one: kuutsunyandere. This might be as close a term we can get to properly capture how I feel about Wanda:
    • 7% would hang with
    • 13% would run screaming from
    • 9% want to cradle in arms and say everything will be ok
    • 17% want to grab by shoulders and shake hard
    • 12% in love
    • 14% in lust
    • 5% revolted by
    • 9% inspired by
    • 14% infuriated by

    Of course, any way you slice it she adds up to 100% badass woman. #feminism

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 278
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:12 pm 
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    khamul wrote:
    Hmmm. I always get a bit uncomfortable around this kind of personality profiling... I mean, in this case, I have issues with the system generally, because it seems to confuse behaviours that arise from the underlying psychology (e.g. 'affectionate', 'withdrawn') with psychology.

    'Affectionate' is a way in which you react to a given situation, because of who you are, not a definition of who you are. People are not toys who reward you if you play with them right.

    ....

    So... what kind of person do you have to be, to say something like "Grief is not a particularly helpful thing... but I understand it"? And then to comfort the doll involved? How do you have to feel, for that to be something that comes naturally?

    That she does it in front of her minions/tools/colleagues/fellows/friends... yeah. I think to imagine that it could even cross her mind to care what Claud and Ivan think of her, is a gross misunderstanding of Wanda.

    In her mind, like everyone else, they're dust that hasn't stopped moving yet. With her magic sense, the first, the strongest thing she perceives about a person is the nature of their body, the strings she could pull to animate them, if their life was cut. She sees the puppets in the people - and the beautiful, magical candle flame of their lives which is the only thing separating them from the uncroaked... and which she knows will gutter out a brief instant from now. Why would you care about the opinion of someone who will be dead next second? Why would you worry whether the flame gutters out next second, or this one?

    But you grieve for it... oh, you grieve.

    That is my reading of Wanda. Tragic heroine? Victim? Monster? They are all facets of the same dark crystal - the only thing that changes is perspective.


    SAY IT AGAIN. I completely agree. This is a beautiful Wanda moment, I missed it while she was in jail. Can't wait for the queen of the dead to get moving again, and I'm very excited for what this new unit means for her team. Is that just a ghost vessel for the residual dead thinkomancers that Wanda can now just hide in her pocket?

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 278
     Post Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:24 pm 
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    lordfisch wrote:
    khamul wrote:
    Hmmm. I always get a bit uncomfortable around this kind of personality profiling... I mean, in this case, I have issues with the system generally, because it seems to confuse behaviours that arise from the underlying psychology (e.g. 'affectionate', 'withdrawn') with psychology.

    I appreciate everything you're saying here, but these terms aren't intended to be psychological profiles - they're tropes, used often enough (at least in anime) that they got their own terminology. Certainly nobody is arguing that Wanda fits any particular trope - that's why Chiu gave her the (German-inspired) compound term that includes every one: kuutsunyandere. This might be as close a term we can get to properly capture how I feel about Wanda:
    • 7% would hang with
    • 13% would run screaming from
    • 9% want to cradle in arms and say everything will be ok
    • 17% want to grab by shoulders and shake hard
    • 12% in love
    • 14% in lust
    • 5% revolted by
    • 9% inspired by
    • 14% infuriated by

    Of course, any way you slice it she adds up to 100% badass woman. #feminism
    All words are linguistic tokens to convey concepts that radically simplify and thus fundamentally distort complex realities.

    Specifying that this applies to words we use to describe people without acknowledging that it is true of all words naturally tends to imply (and more often than not reflects) the idea that it is somehow not as true of other words.

    On the other hand...

    My feelings about Wanda are complex (more so than I can or wish to easily explain). Wanda as a character is more complex, because Rob probably cares about her more than I do (far more than he does about, say, Parson). But Wanda as a character is a subset of Rob's cognitive process concerning Erfworld as a whole, and Erfworld as a whole is a subset of Rob's cognitive creative efforts, and that's a subset of Rob.

    I would feel uncomfortable dissecting Rob, because Rob is a person. Wanda is not. That doesn't mean I wouldn't dissect Rob if there was some important reason to do so, just that I wouldn't do it casually or for fun.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 278
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:30 pm 
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    No one in particular wrote:
    Horatio Von Becker wrote:
    Oh. The page title is a reference to Higurashi no Naku Koro Ne. Isaac is referencing both a cockroach and a cicada, then.

    Or, in keeping with the themes of Erfworld being built on rock, it's a reference to the Prince song "When Doves Cry"

    Oh, probably. I get probably half of my popculture from TvTropes.

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