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 Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 226
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:57 am 
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Belrodes wrote:
aurilee wrote:
So the RCC insists on calling him Regent (and he forewent the "Overlord" title)...I assume that means the heir is still Don's heir and not Caesar's (no Caesar+Bunny Signamancy then :(). This also raises the question of how long Regency lasts.

In Stupidworld, it's until the heir is capable of handling the realm on his/her own (meaning it lasts until the heir has become an adult in accordance with that culture's definition of adult). But in Erfworld, everyone is popped an adult. Does that mean Caesar stops being Ruler as soon as the heir pops?

Well, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense since units still pop with very little knowledge about what's going on and how to do...stuff. They're level 1, with very little skill in anything and no tactical knowledge/abilities at all. They just have whatever instincts their role provides (ie, what their side is called, awareness of certain units). So is there just a one Turn transition period where Caesar briefs the new heir on TV's situation, or is there an "official" duration (like one hundred-turn) where the heir is instructed by the Regent to prepare him/her for eventually becoming King/Queen?

My bet is on some sort of preset duration (either flexible and determined by the size of the side or something, or fixed/Titan-commanded). This is also the best thing for Parson et al. because otherwise Caesar will find himself out of a job pretty quickly.

Let's just hope this heir can adjust well to this situation, and listens to Caesar a little better than Albert listens to Vinnie/Jillian.

[apologies if this is elsewhere in the thread, I skimmed it and didn't see anything like this, so I figured it would be safe to post...]


Regents in the real world have rules that vary based on the nation and the royalty. With how rare regents must be on Erf it would actually be more surprising to me if rules on regency exist. Caesar probably has until he thinks the heir is ready or until he croaks to stay on the throne. "Regent" doesn't seem to be an official kind of unit, after all. Only "ruler" is official when it comes to Caesar's title, and that's only a temporary status in that nobody lives forever.

Besides, if the heir is garbage and Caesar ends up removing that heir from existence, wouldn't that just be par for the course with King Don's royal heirs?

There's certainly been cases of Regents sticking around far longer than you might expect. Case in point, Margrethe I of Denmark (and Norway and Sweden). Regent for her son Olaf, then regent for nobody after he died at age 16, then regent for her adopted son Erik, staying as basically co-monarch her entire lifetime. (Although she was only officially co-monarch in Norway, she basically held that posistion in all 3 kingdoms.)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 226
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:58 am 
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    The plan is clear.

    "You see, killbots have a preset kill limit. Knowing their weakness, I sent wave after wave of my own men at them until they reached their limit and shut down." - Captain Zap Brannigan

    :3

    All trolling aside- why not?
    Buff your troops with as many 'absorb magic' abilities as you can (I'm sure those tuning fork spears won't help at all with this) then rush the magic kingdom.

    You'll loose? a lot. but eventually? They'll run out of juice. And Wanda can bring back the dead - added benefit of no upkeep. With a massive treasury to upgrade buildings, you have the capacity of building a new higher tier (gun capable) army, without the bulk of your old army draining your coffers. Seize control of the magic kingdom, control the portals, control the un-sided casters, have an entire second staging area... there's a ton of benefits. It's absolutely an all in sort of play, but not only are the rewards ridiculous, I'm pretty sure they could provide simple overwhelming numbers to guarantee success, neh?



    "Gentlemen, once we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a pack of cards. Checkmate."
    - Captain Zap Brannigan, again, because lulz

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 226
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:11 am 
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    aurilee wrote:
    So the RCC insists on calling him Regent (and he forewent the "Overlord" title)...I assume that means the heir is still Don's heir and not Caesar's (no Caesar+Bunny Signamancy then :(). This also raises the question of how long Regency lasts.

    In Stupidworld, it's until the heir is capable of handling the realm on his/her own (meaning it lasts until the heir has become an adult in accordance with that culture's definition of adult). But in Erfworld, everyone is popped an adult. Does that mean Caesar stops being Ruler as soon as the heir pops?

    Well, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense since units still pop with very little knowledge about what's going on and how to do...stuff. They're level 1, with very little skill in anything and no tactical knowledge/abilities at all. They just have whatever instincts their role provides (ie, what their side is called, awareness of certain units). So is there just a one Turn transition period where Caesar briefs the new heir on TV's situation, or is there an "official" duration (like one hundred-turn) where the heir is instructed by the Regent to prepare him/her for eventually becoming King/Queen?

    My bet is on some sort of preset duration (either flexible and determined by the size of the side or something, or fixed/Titan-commanded). This is also the best thing for Parson et al. because otherwise Caesar will find himself out of a job pretty quickly.

    Let's just hope this heir can adjust well to this situation, and listens to Caesar a little better than Albert listens to Vinnie/Jillian.

    [apologies if this is elsewhere in the thread, I skimmed it and didn't see anything like this, so I figured it would be safe to post...]

    You don't need to be a high level to be a good king, Don managed just fine without having any combat experience. I highly doubt there's some sort of official turn length before an heir usurps a regency. If it's not instantaneous, then it'd last as long as the regent feels like it.
    abb3w wrote:
    Meanwhile, my guess is that saving Wanda may not require Parson exert himself much. Claude and Ivan doing almost anything requires (to the point of being blindingly obvious even for them) that they retrieve the Wonky Wrench, which seems likely in possession of the Charliescomm action figure. Since they are bound by the truce, they are currently GK units; as GK command units, they know how large the GK treasury is, and that if necessity makes it important enough, GK can afford the penalty of smacking down the action figure. They have critical intel regarding Charliescomm, which cannot be safely sent via Thinkagram due to the risk of Charlie meddling; this (with absence of a Hat set) leaves such a necessity. Ideally, they want to take out the Charliescomm action figure by an instant-kill sneak attack, to keep Charlie from adding to their headaches... though unless they're very clever, the five million schmucker bump to his treasury will warn him of shenanigans.

    Presuming a success on this with minimal complications, allowing some freedom of action, what's their next priority? As Decrypted, they also seem to have an instinct to protect Wanda, and they both know she was in trouble; breaking into her cell to get orders is an obvious step for them, and seems the obvious next step. Her escape results immediately afterward, and they head underground to portal Park, and back to Spacerock (or possibly Caesar's Palace). This then leaves the problem of getting Bunny's Erf-ly remains, Wanda, and the Arkenpliers all together... which probably will require quite a bit of cleverness on Parson's part.

    Allright, there is some piece of information you seem to be missing: Ivan and Claud do not know that Wanda is in any danger. The fact that they've been decrypted onto the side of Gobwin Knob means that she's absolutely fine. They don't even know how long they've been dead for, so Wanda is most probably long past her excecusion date.
    Mithranir wrote:
    Crazy Theory Time!

    It occurs to me, with all this talk of Caesar's signamancy, and how it relates to Julius Caesar, Octavian and other ancient Romans, that we may have missed another important facet of his signamancy.

    Consider his surname, for a moment. To me, when I see Caesar Borgatta, my mind goes to Cesare Borgia. Is that a parallel that has ever been discussed at any point?
    Spoiler: show
    For those who don't know, Cesare Borgia was the son of Pope Alexander VI; among other things, he was a mercenary, politician, noble and a Cardinal. With his dad's help, he rose incredibly high in the world, eventually becoming (in my understanding) a semi-independent Duke.

    Now, I recognize that all of this doesn't scan with the story of Caesar Borgatta thus far. But here's the thing. Like I said before, a lot of Cesare Borgia's rise to power was predicated on the fact that his father gave him the patronage and leg-room to do what he did. To me, that seems reminiscent of the early days of Caesar and Don's relationship, before it all went wrong. Caesar has risen incredibly high, largely on merit; but it doesn't change the fact that the initial impetus for his successes was Don's patronage.


    And here's the part that interests me. Cesare Borgia couldn't maintain his position without the patronage of his father. Not too long after Alexander VI died, the vultures started to circle, he started trusting the wrong people. People who he considered his allies, they started betrayed him as soon as it became convenient to do so, and took his land while they were at it. Cesare Borgia ended up dying alone, trapped in an ambush at a siege where he was attempting to recapture a town that had previously belonged to him.

    I recognize that the parallels aren't perfect, but they do seem to be there. If there's linkage in the Julius Caesar/Cesare Borgia/Caesar Borgatta signamantic connections, it doesn't exactly bode well for him and his long-term survival, I think.

    Wow, that certainly sound a lot like our Czar Borgavich of Transilvito. Czar does seem like the type to die alone after trusting the wrong people.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 226
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:28 am 
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    Squall83 wrote:
    I wonder what would happen if someone told Jillian Haruhi Zamussels that her girlfriend is about to die.


    Squall83 wrote:
    Jillian Haruhi Zamussels

    Thanks for making me spill my tea. Have a schmucker.

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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 226
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:40 am 
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    themunck wrote:
    There's certainly been cases of Regents sticking around far longer than you might expect. Case in point, Margrethe I of Denmark (and Norway and Sweden). Regent for her son Olaf, then regent for nobody after he died at age 16, then regent for her adopted son Erik, staying as basically co-monarch her entire lifetime. (Although she was only officially co-monarch in Norway, she basically held that posistion in all 3 kingdoms.)


    Margrethe I of Denmark...are you Danish? I hadn't realized they spelled it that way in Denmark, I'd only seen it spelled "Margaret I of Denmark".

    She's a fine example of a regent who keeps an empire together, though. In what becomes an interesting comparison to Caesar, she suppressed the power of the religious in order to strengthen royal power, where Caesar will likely do his best to weaken both the crown and its recent connection to scripture. Either way, a successful regent who created a long-standing union of states.

    I had actually been thinking of Empress Dowager Cixi of China when mentioning regents. Her rule was less direct than Margaret's, but just as powerful. Cixi wasn't quite as lucky with either emperor she lorded over. The Tongzhi Emperor was arrogant, upset the European powers and tried to fire his financial ministers when they, noting that China was bankrupt, wouldn't rebuild his palace. Hopefully Don's heir doesn't try that with Benjamin. The Guangxu emperor tried to enact extreme reforms across China and Cixi responded by coming out of "retirement" to overthrow him in a coup. I can sort of see Caesar sitting on a beach in Aqua Velva when he gets word of his successor's crazy idea to start popping infantry instead of bats.

    Point being, even if Caesar is regent for an extended period of time, it won't necessarily be due to a thirst for power. He may be like Margaret, who outlived her replacement and kept the nation secure until another king was ready. He could also be Cixi, forced to clean up the messes of the king until the his mistakes force Caesar to step back into power to save Transylvito.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 226
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:23 am 
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    Belrodes wrote:
    Margrethe I of Denmark...are you Danish? I hadn't realized they spelled it that way in Denmark, I'd only seen it spelled "Margaret I of Denmark".

    (Dane here).

    She's usually spelled Margrete I in modern Danish sources. The current reigning queen is Margrethe II (with an h), but her regnal number is due to the existence of Margrete I. Before Margrethe II ascended to the throne, the medieval queen-regent was just known as Queen Margrete.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 226
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:11 am 
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    I would imagine that the promotion to King would require the Reagent to step down. Automatic fulfillment makes sense when you're filling a void in a position of power (Chief warlord being filled when Parson was captured, Caesar being made into Caesar when Don died), but promotions take place when the side's leader says so. I could see a Reagent denying the Heir Apparent promotion to King/Queen until They thought the Prince/Princess was ready to take the throne.

    Transilvito underwent a transition from a Mafia style family to a Western European Monarchy before. I suspect that the new boss will make things a bit more Roman. What says Rome better than a leader staying in power longer than his associates think that they should, when we have this perfectly good person that would be put into power (that would be super easy to make them do what we want because of their experience)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 226
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 8:45 am 
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    SirArthurIV wrote:
    Automatic fulfillment makes sense when you're filling a void in a position of power (Chief warlord being filled when Parson was captured, Caesar being made into Caesar when Don died)

    Position of CWL was NOT automatically filled when Parson was captured. We saw Stanley promote Antium to CWL. The second example stands because, well, it is the standard ruler-heir mechanic.

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    JadedDragoon wrote:
    I was hoping we could debate the meaning of "agent" in the the Declaration of Non-Aggression again. It totally hasn't been argued to death already.

    You know... at this point you boops aren't beating dead horses any more. You're making glue.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 226
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:02 am 
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    In Stupidworld, regencies are historically not really matters of law, but matters of relative power between regent and monarch. General rules for regency over a minor monarch didn't arrive in world law before the 19th century (the 1814 Constitution of Norway, article 41, establishes the regency of the Queen Mother for a minor King). Before this, regencies were decided on a case by case basis which were largely dominated by the personalities involved - weak/strong monarch, strong/weak regent.

    Given that the monarch will pop fully formed, however, there's not really any need for regency after popping. Regencies exist in our law because the law determines a child to be unfit to be king by law, not because of inexperience. A king who has reached the age of majority is required to rule, without regard to any inexperience in matters of state. Since Erfworld has no such concept as minority, there's no game-mechanic need for a regency past popping.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 226
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:03 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    King Posbrake has this to say on the matter.

    Quote:
    "Trivial matter, for a Ruler," scoffed Posbrake. "I know more or less where everyone is."


    http://archives.erfworld.com/Kickstarter+Stories/14

    Ah, thanks - I haven't quite made my way through the Kickstarter stories yet (should really do that...)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 226
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:58 am 
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    yuffiek wrote:
    Jade wrote:
    I also want to see Bunny get decrypted; it's time to make Bunny Real.


    Look closely at the smoke over Caesar's head. It might be wishful Thinkmancy on my part, but is Bunny's ghost visible in it?

    Well, there's certainly SOMETHING there... but I don't know if there's a form to what that wispy shape is...

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 226
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:10 pm 
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    zilfallon wrote:
    Squall83 wrote:
    Jillian Haruhi Zamussels

    Thanks for making me spill my tea. Have a schmucker.

    Thanks, man, and sorry for the tea. :)

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 226
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:17 pm 
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    Couple more things I've thought of:

    1) Do we know for sure that a non-Caster Decrypted is destroyed when trying to use a Portal? With all the weirdness surrounding the Decrypted, it might be worth testing with a non-sentient unit.

    2) It seems like Claude and Ivan don't realize that Casters don't automatically disband when their side falls, even if they are outside the MK. We know that for a fact because of Wanda's experience in Book 0, but it might not be common knowledge. Most rulers probably pull their casters back to the capitol if they know it is under threat, and by the time a side will definitely fall, there is no way out other than to the MK. The number of casters who go barbarian in the field is probably vanishingly small, and the number who then find a way back to the MK is probably a small fraction of that. I don't really see any tactical advantage to this knowledge, but it's interesting to see how much of what Erfworlders assume to be true is demonstrably incorrect.

    3) Claude and Ivan don't have to attack the action figure, Ivan can create some type of grapple-trap (mud-pit?) that subdues it, then they can take the Wrench away from it. We know from Jillian/Olive/Crapsack's interaction in Book 0 that a grapple-trap isn't considered combat, and thus shouldn't violate the contract.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 226
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:25 pm 
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    krikkert wrote:
    In Stupidworld, regencies are historically not really matters of law, but matters of relative power between regent and monarch. General rules for regency over a minor monarch didn't arrive in world law before the 19th century (the 1814 Constitution of Norway, article 41, establishes the regency of the Queen Mother for a minor King). Before this, regencies were decided on a case by case basis which were largely dominated by the personalities involved - weak/strong monarch, strong/weak regent.

    Given that the monarch will pop fully formed, however, there's not really any need for regency after popping. Regencies exist in our law because the law determines a child to be unfit to be king by law, not because of inexperience. A king who has reached the age of majority is required to rule, without regard to any inexperience in matters of state. Since Erfworld has no such concept as minority, there's no game-mechanic need for a regency past popping.


    True, in Stupidworld there's no set of rules for Regency (as I and others have said, it depends on when the culture views a child/person fit for ruling, and depends on the personality of the regent/monarch), but Erfworld is all about rules, so I assume there is one.

    I know Level doesn't matter much to a Ruler, but there's more to experience in Erfworld than Level. Remember when Wanda popped? She didn't know any tactical data about her side (alliances etc.), she only had her "instincts" (her side, her magic, her family, her role etc.). Prince Albert also didn't know much when he popped. You would need at least one turn to fill in the freshly-popped heir on what the boop is going on with TV.

    So, I still think there's going to be some sort of rule regarding transfer of power, but I also still think there'd be at least one Turn of overlap just to get the Heir up to date.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 226
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:39 pm 
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    RumpusImperator wrote:
    1) Do we know for sure that a non-Caster Decrypted is destroyed when trying to use a Portal? With all the weirdness surrounding the Decrypted, it might be worth testing with a non-sentient unit.

    The only empirical evidence we have regarding portals is Queen Bea. So for all we know, it might be possible for any unit in all of Erfworld that isn't Queen Bea to pass through.

    RumpusImperator wrote:
    2) It seems like Claude and Ivan don't realize that Casters don't automatically disband when their side falls, even if they are outside the MK. We know that for a fact because of Wanda's experience in Book 0, but it might not be common knowledge.

    Wanda was a ruler.


    Last edited by ManaCaster on Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 226
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:39 pm 
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    atteSmythe wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    King Posbrake has this to say on the matter.

    Quote:
    "Trivial matter, for a Ruler," scoffed Posbrake. "I know more or less where everyone is."


    http://archives.erfworld.com/Kickstarter+Stories/14

    Ah, thanks - I haven't quite made my way through the Kickstarter stories yet (should really do that...)



    They're really interesting covering topics of life in Erfworld which we can't see in the main storyline, the one that's linked to is especially interesting to me as it's from the perspective of a caster (Dirtamancer more exact, did you know that they can basically do a chemical analysys of a cup of coffee as it goes down their throat ?) a Carnymancer and gives some great info about the Magic Kingdom.

    Also what a tease Parson is, Ben thought up some questions about the bracer he didn't and he won't even write them down.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 226
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:15 pm 
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    RumpusImperator wrote:
    "A heavily armed society is a polite society" just doesn't hold true in the real world. Since nobody has an advantage, everybody holding a gun is pretty much exactly the same situation as everybody holding a spear, only death comes faster. From the countries I've seen where everybody household has an AK or two, it just means that the village idiots can set off a giant web of interlocking blood-feuds when they get in a gunfight over a parking spot.


    Switzerland?

    I think it is more cultural. The existence of the weapons isn't the deciding factor.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 226
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:50 pm 
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    I've done a Find of the word 'messy' on every page of this thread and have not found any hits, so I'll ask this now and hope no one asked it before:

    What do the Jack Notes mean?

    What does it mean 'Jack is jacked. He likes his messes messy'?

    I figure it is an American colloquialism thing, one I'm not familiar with. Help me parse it, please.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 226
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:53 pm 
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    I just thought of a very simple solution to the current situation which probably isn't going to happen because it would not give Parson any chance to be brilliant. :parson:

    Basically Marie simply goes to Janis and retrieves the Pliers, then she goes to Sizemore and brings him to Gobwin Knob where she then hands him and Ace Carnymancy scrolls that she purchased several hundredturns ago for this exact purpose. Sizemore uses one Scroll to allow him to perform one act of normally impossible Dirtamancy to rig the GK portal so any unit can pass through it while Ace uses his scrolls to make as many self-specialled rifles as possible. Then GK's army swarms through the portal with rifles and miracle poles and Blitzkriegs the hell out of any Caster that stands in their way until they rescue Wanda and the other captured GK units.

    Probably won't happen for Charlie and Great Mind related reasons but man it struck me that Predictamancers can be horribly OP even with just their basic abilities, Marie already did basically the same thing in the Battle for Portal Park after all.

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     Post subject: Re: Book 3 - Page 226
     Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:04 pm 
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    Polvane the eraser wrote:
    I've done a Find of the word 'messy' on every page of this thread and have not found any hits, so I'll ask this now and hope no one asked it before:

    What do the Jack Notes mean?

    What does it mean 'Jack is jacked. He likes his messes messy'?

    I figure it is an American colloquialism thing, one I'm not familiar with. Help me parse it, please.



    "Jacked" in this context is similar to "hyped". Along the lines of excited. Even before this, we've known that Jack likes when things are crazy. Particularly page 119. This situation is pretty complicated, and that's what Jack loves.

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