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 Post subject: Re: "Titans know"
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:28 pm 
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DevilDan wrote:
Maybe it's my nature, but I don't assume that creation tales or religious traditions should be taken at face value. While it's possible that the Titans as creators of Erf is canon, what is less certain is that they had any contact at all with the Tools. All we have is hearsay on that last bit.


Hearsay has little value as an argument in this world. The casters are popped with certain knowledge, including, likely, that magical items are made by mortals, and that artifacts are not made by mortals (book 1 p 35). This is necessary knowledge for them to be popped with, and likely is just as true as you getting a bonus if you have eight units in a stack. They're not particularly creative. It's unlikely they would be able to generate specific lies such as that easily. Far more likely, it's standard knowledge for them.

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     Post subject: Re: "Titans know"
     Post Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:46 pm 
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    the first page doesn't mean the titans all looked like elvis impersonators, it means erfworlders think titans made their world and that they looked like elvis impersonators.

    no matter what your religious inclination, most people could describe what they think jesus looked like. yet i've never seen any photo's of him. whether the person in the book actually existed is upto your own personal beliefs at this point in time.

    so page one of the comic could be seen as canon or simply as the product of an erfworld narrators imagination. it is important to know that the story teller can mislead as well as inform.

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     Post subject: Re: "Titans know"
     Post Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:52 pm 
    E is for Erfworld Supporter Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Year of the Dwagon Supporter Pin-up Calendar and New Art Team Supporter This user is a Tool! Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit
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    moose o death wrote:
    the first page doesn't mean the titans all looked like elvis impersonators, it means erfworlders think titans made their world and that they looked like elvis impersonators.
    ...
    so page one of the comic could be seen as canon or simply as the product of an erfworld narrators imagination. it is important to know that the story teller can mislead as well as inform.


    That's true, but I don't think Erfworld "feels" like the kind of series that uses the unreliable narrator. The main thrust of the narrative doesn't get its kicks from mindbooping us. I think the conventional literal interpretation of the Titans in Book 1, page 1 is a safe bet.

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     Post subject: Re: "Titans know"
     Post Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:46 pm 
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    Ytaker wrote:
    DevilDan wrote:
    Maybe it's my nature, but I don't assume that creation tales or religious traditions should be taken at face value. While it's possible that the Titans as creators of Erf is canon, what is less certain is that they had any contact at all with the Tools. All we have is hearsay on that last bit.


    Hearsay has little value as an argument in this world. The casters are popped with certain knowledge, including, likely, that magical items are made by mortals, and that artifacts are not made by mortals (book 1 p 35). This is necessary knowledge for them to be popped with, and likely is just as true as you getting a bonus if you have eight units in a stack. They're not particularly creative. It's unlikely they would be able to generate specific lies such as that easily. Far more likely, it's standard knowledge for them.


    And they're also born knowing that Royals are the chosen of the Titans?

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     Post subject: Re: "Titans know"
     Post Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:33 pm 
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    moose o death wrote:
    the first page doesn't mean the titans all looked like elvis impersonators, it means erfworlders think titans made their world and that they looked like elvis impersonators.


    I guess I have to acknowledge that it COULD mean that - though, given that the narrator/illustrations never misleads us in any other regard (so far as we know) I don't see on what you're basing this claim. Your claim would have more foundation if the narrator were identified with a particular Erfworlder (thereby limiting its omniscience), but it is not. It seems much more likely to me that we were being shown a for-real image of the creation of Erfworld. I don't think I understand your reluctance to accept that conclusion - you seem to want to make this a conversation about real-life religious belief, which is confusing to me.

    moose o death wrote:
    so page one of the comic could be seen as canon or simply as the product of an erfworld narrators imagination. it is important to know that the story teller can mislead as well as inform.


    Sure! Why believe anything about the story? I think we should at every moment doubt the narration and illustrations. I personally think The Tool is actually a fine, smart, tall Noble, who ruled conscientiously and well without incident until the end of his days. The storyteller/illustrator doubtless has his/her own motives for painting The Tool so negatively - some anti-Noble bias informing this fable, I'm sure.

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     Post subject: Re: "Titans know"
     Post Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:15 pm 
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    DevilDan wrote:
    Ytaker wrote:
    DevilDan wrote:
    Maybe it's my nature, but I don't assume that creation tales or religious traditions should be taken at face value. While it's possible that the Titans as creators of Erf is canon, what is less certain is that they had any contact at all with the Tools. All we have is hearsay on that last bit.


    Hearsay has little value as an argument in this world. The casters are popped with certain knowledge, including, likely, that magical items are made by mortals, and that artifacts are not made by mortals (book 1 p 35). This is necessary knowledge for them to be popped with, and likely is just as true as you getting a bonus if you have eight units in a stack. They're not particularly creative. It's unlikely they would be able to generate specific lies such as that easily. Far more likely, it's standard knowledge for them.


    And they're also born knowing that Royals are the chosen of the Titans?


    They are probably popped knowing that royals are descended from those the Titans set to rule. They also know that they are stronger and smarter (is intelligence a stat? Then probably. All the royals seem quite smart.) than other units.

    http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_131

    http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_91

    I suspect Stanley knows this. It doesn't, however, logically follow that because they are descended from those whom the Titans set to rule and because they are strong and smart that they have a divine mandate. I don't think it's that suspect that the royals were created by the Titans to rule, and that they are stronger, smarter, and level faster, generally, than other units.

    http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/TBFGK_145

    In this case, he indicates how easily what they believe can switch- he knows the Titans left the royals in charge, but believes this does not give them a divine mandate. Fixed knowledge, but many interpretations of what it can mean. Does the fact that the Titans left behind the tools mean whoever attunes to them is following their will? That also does not logically follow, but no one contests who left them behind.

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     Post subject: Re: "Titans know"
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:10 am 
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    That would mean that "Erf" still wants the royals to rule as long as they're popped with a belief in their mandate.

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     Post subject: Re: "Titans know"
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:47 am 
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    noxharrington wrote:
    moose o death wrote:
    the first page doesn't mean the titans all looked like elvis impersonators, it means erfworlders think titans made their world and that they looked like elvis impersonators.


    I guess I have to acknowledge that it COULD mean that - though, given that the narrator/illustrations never misleads us in any other regard (so far as we know) I don't see on what you're basing this claim. Your claim would have more foundation if the narrator were identified with a particular Erfworlder (thereby limiting its omniscience), but it is not. It seems much more likely to me that we were being shown a for-real image of the creation of Erfworld. I don't think I understand your reluctance to accept that conclusion - you seem to want to make this a conversation about real-life religious belief, which is confusing to me.

    moose o death wrote:
    so page one of the comic could be seen as canon or simply as the product of an erfworld narrators imagination. it is important to know that the story teller can mislead as well as inform.


    Sure! Why believe anything about the story? I think we should at every moment doubt the narration and illustrations. I personally think The Tool is actually a fine, smart, tall Noble, who ruled conscientiously and well without incident until the end of his days. The storyteller/illustrator doubtless has his/her own motives for painting The Tool so negatively - some anti-Noble bias informing this fable, I'm sure.


    I agree with noxharrington. You can't just decide that one bit is canon and the next isn't. If one part of the story is false with no apparant reason for being so, then the entire thing is suspect and there's little point in reading it. I mean if that's really the case, then we can disregard any bit of the story we dislike.

    Also, Moose o Death, I think that's really the key here. You disapprove of real life religion and you're projecting it onto Erfworld's. You seem to be approaching this entire argument from the baseline assumption that Erfworld's god(s) don't exist based on your belief that God in RL doesn't exist. The problem with that is that Erfworld is a fictional place. Even if we assumed, purely for the sake of argument, that God doesn't exist in RL, god(s) can still exist in Erfworld. More to the point, we were shown the gods of Erfworld in the very first page.

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     Post subject: Re: "Titans know"
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:54 pm 
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    Since it doesn't impact the story anymore than God's actual existence impacts our own current events, I'll say that agnosticism is the way to go in the case of the Titans.

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     Post subject: Re: "Titans know"
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:23 pm 
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    DevilDan wrote:
    Since it doesn't impact the story anymore than God's actual existence impacts our own current events, I'll say that agnosticism is the way to go in the case of the Titans.



    (sputter) Except we have evidence for the existence of the Titans! Almost exactly as much as we have for Parson! Why on Erf would we choose to ignore that evidence?

    Also, it absolutely DOES impact the story - the whole debate over whether anyone has a 'mandate' from the Titans is central to the conflict.

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     Post subject: Re: "Titans know"
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:16 pm 
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    noxharrington wrote:
    (sputter) Except we have evidence for the existence of the Titans! Almost exactly as much as we have for Parson! Why on Erf would we choose to ignore that evidence?


    The images of the Titans shaping/creating Erf must be taken with a grain of salt, if only because it has a certain tinge of "once upon a time": just it's poetic "just so" tone is a warning flag.

    noxharrington wrote:
    Also, it absolutely DOES impact the story - the whole debate over whether anyone has a 'mandate' from the Titans is central to the conflict.


    Even if the Titans exist, it doesn't mean that they have a preference for the royals. God may well exist in our universe, but that doesn't mean that he wanted our royalty running the show.

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     Post subject: Re: "Titans know"
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:31 pm 
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    Unlike our own world, Erfworld provides very clear evidence of intelligent design.
    We might not have any idea what the Titans are, but it's pretty clear that there is some form of intelligence running the show.
    You can question what the will of the titans are, but it's really hard to say that, for example, a world in which force fields prevent you from moving through them if you've already move through an arbitrary amount of other force fields (unless you were riding another creature who hasn't moved through an arbitrary number of force fields) is not a designed, created world.

    The creator or creators (who shall be referred to as The Titans for the sake of convenience) might or might not be omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent. They are almost certainly not all-loving.
    But to argue that they don't even exist flies in the face of overwhelming evidence that this is in fact a created world.

    In my opinion, Agnosticism doesn't make any sense in Erfworld. Nor does Evolution, for that matter, but that's a different topic. :D

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     Post subject: Re: "Titans know"
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:36 pm 
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    noxharrington wrote:
    Predictive Mathamancy, though, I agree. As I've mentioned before, I don't see how Predictamancy and Mathamancy could coexist. All things that will happen should have a 100% chance of occurring; all things that will not should have 0%. Maybe the bracer treats every question like, "how likely is this to be part of the inevitable progression of events?" Or, "How likely is it that the Titans have decreed that X will happen?"


    They're very different types of magic.

    Mathamancy is like the thing in Civ where it tells you what the % chance is that you'll win a battle.

    Predictamancy is more like traditional magical prophecy from fantesy books or classic literature. Wanda's quest for the tools reminds me a lot of what happened in Macbeth after the three witches predicted he would be king, so he killed the king in order to make the prophecy come true, and it did.

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     Post subject: Re: "Titans know"
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:24 pm 
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    DevilDan wrote:
    The images of the Titans shaping/creating Erf must be taken with a grain of salt, if only because it has a certain tinge of "once upon a time": just it's poetic "just so" tone is a warning flag.



    I don't agree. The Titans made Erfworld, they look like Elvis, they dropped a gem. I see no reason to doubt it.

    DevilDan wrote:
    Even if the Titans exist, it doesn't mean that they have a preference for the royals. God may well exist in our universe, but that doesn't mean that he wanted our royalty running the show.


    Right, agreed. I can't remember whether we ever heard anyone in a position to know (that is, someone who was there at the time or the narrator) claim that the Titans placed the Royals in charge in perpetuity. Royals claiming that Royals were left in charge is NOT enough evidence to persuade me. The Royals making that claim obviously A. have a vested interest in making the claim regardless of evidence and B. don't have enough evidence to know for sure themselves, unless they are very very old and were personally handed the reins by a giant Elvis.

    God/Titans existing is not necessarily evidence for a 'plan' for the future, any more than Gygax decreed how every D&D campaign would be played forever.

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     Post subject: Re: "Titans know"
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:31 pm 
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    The Titans are real. Unless defined integers.

    And so are their Tools which are un-Erfy enough to merit their own CGI graphics, recognized Arken-status, and magma-surviving abilities.

    noxharrington wrote:
    I don't agree. The Titans made Erfworld, they look like Elvis, they dropped a gem. I see no reason to doubt it.


    It really should be this easy.

    We can doubt anything. But right now, honestly, it's a story a-titanists dudes, just go with it. It really is YOU that fabricates evidence (like, assuming the narrator was unreliable on the first page then pulling an interpretative stretching exercise) when the simple explanation is that A Titan did it.

    Also moose, why do you want my address? Should I put my mail-box under surveillance?

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     Post subject: Re: "Titans know"
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:36 pm 
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    moose o death wrote:
    right i need all of the addresses for people disagreeing with me. it's not like i didn't warn you.

    i'm not a particularly religious person so even a fictitious story i see the real or at least perceived reality variation of divine intervention. so that would heavily influence my inability to ever consider a titan controlling ANYTHING. page2 of book2 says the arkentools are what the titans used to build erfworld. i would argue that they must have had hundreds of the things if that were the case, so far they have been useless for actually making anything.

    so either the tools are simply high level weapons, or they really did help make erfworld. if that's the case who would need the effects we have seen to construct a world? they must have worked differently for titans or the titans never existed


    We already know that various people get various mileage out of the Arkentools, via attunement. For whatever reason, (hidden traits, Fate magic, w/e), Wanda is able to get more out of the pliers than anyone else thus far. Who's to say that the Titans couldn't get even MORE out of them? It seems not only plausible, but likely. Who's going to be able to use the tools better than the ones that made them in the first place?

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     Post subject: Re: "Titans know"
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:46 pm 
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    The titans may have had the ability to set up natural links- combine a fully powered, fully attuned as Imin said, arkentool with their own potent magics to do powerful things. Croakamancy has the power to bring a volcano to life, which suggests a tool could do powerful stuff with other magics. The arkendish could have been used to make the minds of units. I have little idea what the arkenhammer could do- maybe tame powerful creatures, add humour to the world? Stanley isn't attuned to the magical side of it, only the combat side.

    Edit. Croakamancy could bring things to life, like units, and natural world features, if wielded by a Titan. That was what I was saying.

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     Post subject: Re: "Titans know"
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:50 pm 
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    The arkentools are unbelievably powerful and very unusual. That doesn't mean that they were made by the Titans.

    If they've been around for thousands and thousands of turns, say since the creation of Erf, and haven't ever aligned with anyone till now—at least no on has expired who has been a tool-bearer, or at least not in a battle according to Charlie—then one would think that people would really pay more attention to the claims that there's something significant about Wanda and Stanley's alignment.

    If they've only recently shown up, that either underscores the significance of their alignment and suggests a greater element of fate or it suggests that they're not as old as some would believe.

    Too bad the Titans don't seem to be using any tools in the first page of book 1.

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     Post subject: Re: "Titans know"
     Post Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:21 pm 
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    Well, the arkentools must have attuned to people before this. Because, you know, erfworlders have a specific word for that, "attunement".

    It's probably been very rare in erfworld history, though. And I would expect that usually when someone is attuned, it ends up being either a front-line soldier or a caster, and either way, they're likely to be killed off fairly quickly by enemies afraid of the arkentool's powers. Charlie and Stanly may have been the first time in history there's ever been a overlord or a king who attuned to an arkentool; it seems like the arkentool is likely to attune to whoever picks it up, if it's going to attune to anyone, and that's rarely going to be a king. Also, it seems to be unprecedented that there's one side that has two attuned arkentools, which again tells us just how rare attunement is.

    Edit: DevilDan, I don't think that no one has ever died in battle while attuned to an arkentool before. But the whole question here is if the arkentool gives Stanly some kind of divine mandate, and if he dies in battle, or Wanda does, that's obviously disproven. If a normal front-line stabber had attuned to an arkentool in the past, I doubt he would claim a divine mandate.

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     Post subject: Re: "Titans know"
     Post Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:41 am 
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    I dunno -- Charlie implies that no arkentool wielder has ever been killed. Yet the only arkentool wielders that are currently known to exist are Charlie, Stanley and Wanda. [They were the only three brought up when the Princes were discussing honor]

    Therefore either arkentool wielders in the past have 'disappeared,' or these are the only three that have ever attuned. Remember that Erfworlders pop with 'basic knowledge' intact, so even if something has never happened before, they could still have been popped with the knowledge that units can attune to the Arkentools.

    -V

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