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 Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:43 am 
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Durmatagno wrote:
Lot more risk there, setting aside the morale and Loyalty hit. A level 10 warlord is gonna be a really tough target to croak/capture. Mines another technically possible, but I'd put it very low down as an option.
Well that's the much-more-optimal end of the Bell Curve, there. A Level Ten Warlord would be incredibly hard to capture, sure, but captured units of whatever sort you can manage would still come rolling in if you did well enough. And once they're disarmed and have their hands shackled and their armour removed, well, I think it's safe to say the risk is minimized. Even if it still grants less experience than croaking them in the field, it's got to be better than weapon drills or croaking your own Level One troops.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:18 am 
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    Selexor wrote:
    Even if Sizemore was only Level One at the start of the comic - which I think we can all agree is highly unlikely, given what we know about him - then the two levels he gained during that battle leaves him at Level Three, and the city rebuilding alone brought him to Level Four over the space of only 66 turns, where even under the ideal (and almost certainly hugely exaggerated) conditions I outlined in my analysis earlier, he was actually casting in a way that would grant experience for half of them at best.
    Artemis trained every turn for six hundred and forty turns to go from Level Six to Level Seven, taking every chance she could to maximise her Experience gains.

    No matter how generous we try to be about the subject, I think that's about as clear-cut as we could want it to be: assuming neither one enters combat, a Caster can gain experience rapidly by casting spells (possibly only within their major discipline). A regular unit, even a Warlord, has no such advantage, and can only train incredibly slowly.

    But during those 66 turns, he was directly responsible for the croaking of several thousand units, including multiple high level warlords. I think that was likely the more influential in his leveling so many times. Bogroll croaking Ansom made him level twice. So we know a single act can bring multiple levels. Uncroaking the volcano could have leveled him twice and brought him very close to the third.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:16 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    But during those 66 turns, he was directly responsible for the croaking of several thousand units, including multiple high level warlords. I think that was likely the more influential in his leveling so many times. Bogroll croaking Ansom made him level twice. So we know a single act can bring multiple levels. Uncroaking the volcano could have leveled him twice and brought him very close to the third.
    This has been covered a few times, but he's explicitly stated to have gained three recent levels by the time of the Battle of Spacerock: Two from combat and traps, and one from city building. The combat and traps may or may not refer to his actions in The Battle For Gobwin Knob, but the city rebuilding is most definitely something that happened afterwards.
    The 66 turns I'm talking about, where he did all that city building, is very specifically stated to have happened FOLLOWING TBfGK. It's a different thing altogether. Whatever experience he got for Uncroaking the Volcano, it did not contribute to the one level I'm using in my example.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:20 am 
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    Actually, we can't verify that, Selexor. Erfworld units can't see their XP counts or tell when they gain it. All that tells us is that the third level was completed while he was rebuilding cities, not that it was entirely from city building.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:07 am 
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    sizemore dug most of the tunnels and he created a sizable number of golems even before the at least +3. i would put his starting level at around four before doing the plus three. also i think wanda would be high level since she was one of the main units of now three sides. her first one relied mainly on predicting then turning crucial battles, but when she came she went out onto the field almost constantly and created huge amounts of uncroacked. then she belonged to haffaton where she was required for the side to continue as her upkeep free units were the only army they really had. she would of captured and contained most of the cities, and now she has captured gobwin knob's fifteen new cities plus the a capital, and it hasn't even been noted that she has gained a level. it might of just been because none of the characters noticed, but jillian is a level eight at least from book one, and wanda existed has a forefront fighter much longer than jillian has existed. i would say that wanda is a ten or eleven. possibly more as ansom apparently took only four hundred or so turns to get from a two to a ten.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:43 am 
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    Wanda is 9 (or 8? definitely not 10). Look at the leadership-detailing summer update.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:14 am 
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    conmor wrote:
    but jillian is a level eight at least from book one

    Jillian is exactly level 9 in book 1.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:20 pm 
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    drachefly wrote:
    Wanda is 9 (or 8? definitely not 10). Look at the leadership-detailing summer update.

    I see no reason to belive the bonus she was giving in that page has anything to do with her level. Not when she's carrying an Arkentool.

    There has been no mention of any Chief Caster giving a Side wide bonus to created Units, indeed, DigDoug was not Chief Caster of Homekey despite having created a number of Golems that could have benefited from such a bonus.

    Decrypted Units are not Uncroaked, so there's no reason to believe her Croakamancer bonus would be applying to them. It would nerf any other wielder of the pliers if so.

    At one point in Book 2, it is mentioned that Charlie is able to provide a bonus to Archons that happens to be exactly as powerful as Wanda's.

    Plus the bonus didn't seem to work the same way Ansom's did. He went 10/5/3, she went 8/4/1, that last digit never seemed right for her bonus to be level based.

    And even if it was based on her level, she's fought in fourteen battles since then. At least, there might have been counter attacks.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:26 pm 
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    ok she is a nine. wanda still existed as a front-line fighter much longer than jillian has been alive. if jillian is a nine, then wanda would be n eleven or maybe even a twelve. ansom took four hundred turns of battle to become a ten from a two. wanda has been fighting on the forntlines for thousands of turns. how many sides do you think could and had sent an army to conquer haffaton? they have eleven or so capitals, so wanda and olive have been dealing with eleven+ sides. wanda would be REALLY high level and probably only a level or two behind olive at any time.


    Last edited by conmor on Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:13 pm 
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    conmor wrote:
    ok she is a nine. wanda still existed as a front-line fighter much longer than jillian has been alive. if jillian is a nine, then wanda would be n eleven or maybe even a twelve. ansom took four hundred turns of battle to become a ten from a two. wanda has been fighting on the forntlines for thousands of turns. how many sides do you think though that they could send an army to conquer haffaton? they have eleven or so capitals, so wanda and olive have been dealing with eleven+ sides. wanda would be REALLY high level and probably only a level or two behind olive at any time.
    I take issue with a lot of this. For one, we don't know that Wanda is much older than Jillian. In all likelihood, Wanda is probably only one or two hundred turns older than Jillian at most (it only takes 60-ish turns to pop an Heir, and Marie got Banhammer acting on that as soon as her Prediction was made). Secondly, that's making a lot of assumptions about what Wanda did while she was with Haffaton, assumptions that run contrary to what we saw. She was able to devote a lot of time to Jillian as a captive, which suggests to me she wasn't running combats. She was the magical glue holding the side together, so she was probably uncroaking the casualties after combats, and doing whatever casting was required, rather than leading campaigns herself. It actually makes sense that Haffaton's frontline was all living troops led by Warlords. After they took over a region, Wanda probably was sent out to uncroak all the loses to garrison the cities taken, while the living army moves on. This approach matches her pattern of infrequent, short absences from prisoner Jillian rather than a prolonged absence. Lastly, I don't believe we have any idea how long passes between the Fall of Goodminton to the Fall of Haffaton, and from the Fall of Haffaton to present day.
    So in other words, there's no reason to assume Wanda MUST be a higher level than Jillian.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:12 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    I take issue with a lot of this. For one, we don't know that Wanda is much older than Jillian. In all likelihood, Wanda is probably only one or two hundred turns older than Jillian at most (it only takes 60-ish turns to pop an Heir, and Marie got Banhammer acting on that as soon as her Prediction was made). Secondly, that's making a lot of assumptions about what Wanda did while she was with Haffaton, assumptions that run contrary to what we saw. She was able to devote a lot of time to Jillian as a captive, which suggests to me she wasn't running combats. She was the magical glue holding the side together, so she was probably uncroaking the casualties after combats, and doing whatever casting was required, rather than leading campaigns herself. It actually makes sense that Haffaton's frontline was all living troops led by Warlords. After they took over a region, Wanda probably was sent out to uncroak all the loses to garrison the cities taken, while the living army moves on. This approach matches her pattern of infrequent, short absences from prisoner Jillian rather than a prolonged absence. Lastly, I don't believe we have any idea how long passes between the Fall of Goodminton to the Fall of Haffaton, and from the Fall of Haffaton to present day.
    So in other words, there's no reason to assume Wanda MUST be a higher level than Jillian.

    To add to your objections:
    1. Wanda at FAQ is pretty much in FAQ all the time, while Jillian is out in the field. Gaining xp.
    2. Wanda at GWK doesn't seem to have spent much frontline time either. Meanwhile, Jillian was a barbarian and had to fight regularly to earn enough shmuckers to simply survive.
    3. I think it's unlikely Olive was only level 2-3 when she met Wanda, which is what she would have to have been for wanda to be "probably only a level or two behind olive at any time"
    4. The entire premise behind your (conmor) analysis seems to assume linear xp scaling, which we have already confirmed to be incorrect. We have absolutely no idea how much more xp it takes to level from ten to eleven than from nine to ten. Prince Ansom just conquered 13 cities and is still apparently level 10.

    Edit: indeed, the text of Headmaster Isaac's bio states "he recently achieved the rarely reached level of 11" which "makes him the highest Headmaster in the Magic Kingdom." This is after having lived for 21,500 turns.
    It seems reaching level 11 is extremely difficult, which would frankly explain why we've seen multiple level 10 characters, while Isaac is the only level 11 we've seen.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:20 pm 
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    what i am saying that wanda did was that she protected haffaton. she croaked probably almost every army they tried to send against haffaton and uncroaked them. at gobwin knob, no we didnt see very many encounters of wanda at the front lines, but we did see was A LOT of uncroaked units. we also saw an order from stanely for wanda to go to warchalking to uncroak manpower. and when i say that wnada was probably only a level or two behind olive at any time, you said that would mean that olive would be 2-3. it said in book 0 that wanda leveled at least once before the fall of goodminton. then there was a timeskip of wanda doing her fighting before she met olive. when she met olive, she was with a raiding party trying to conquer a city. then there was again a timeskip of the collaspe of goodminton where wanda's uncroaked were the only units they could afford. sizemore at least finished his level by using his bonus to rebuild cities. wanda was uncroaking mass quanities of bodies. she even made an uncroaked that loaked like it had in life and lasted for several tens of turns. that would have given a nice chunck of xp if xp is given per accomplishment. at faq, she presumebly used her juice to do something.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:29 pm 
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    conmor wrote:
    what i am saying that wanda did was that she protected haffaton. she croaked probably almost every army they tried to send against haffaton
    THIS is the assumption you're making, one I already pointed out as being likely false. There is literally zero evidence, and in fact suggestion to the contrary. It seems Wanda DID NOT croak every army sent against Haffaton. She UNcroaked them, that's all.
    conmor wrote:
    at gobwin knob, no we didnt see very many encounters of wanda at the front lines, but we did see was A LOT of uncroaked units. we also saw an order from stanely for wanda to go to warchalking to uncroak manpower.
    Same argument as above. Just because she UNcroaked them doesn't mean she croaked them. Wanda was sent to uncroak Manpower because it's easier to bring Wanda to a body than to bring a body to Wanda, it's pretty logical. (Manpower didn't seem to have any Dwagons, whereas the Capital did).

    Also a general note...it would really help if you used some capitalization and grammar in your posts. I don't know if English is your first language; if not then some grammar mistakes are certainly understandable, but using capital letters to start your sentence or for proper names is a pretty universal thing that would make your posts 10 times more readable. Also try hitting Enter every so often to break up paragraphs.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:28 pm 
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    Wanda gains experience points for Uncroaking the dead, so saying 'she just uncroaked them' in fact means, 'she had plenty of opportunities to level'. Furthermore, Wanda was a widespread legend during her time at Haffaton. Gillian had heard stories about Wanda from many Sides, there's no way stories like that would be around if all she did was create zombies, indeed, Wanda even speaks of serving as a Warlord at least once. And at one point as I recall, Gillian, despite having just met Olive and seen her level, thought it stupid to have her as Chief Caster while Wanda was part of the Side.

    At Faq Wanda did indeed stay home while Gillian left on at least two occasions. But... what of all the other times? And Gillian's lobotomy, what if that affected her ability to level? I wouldn't be surprised if she went down in level thanks to that. And how long would it have been before she was fit to fly again? If she was incapacitated for a lengthy period, wouldn't Wanda have been left filling her shoes?

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:27 am 
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    Whispri wrote:
    Wanda gains experience points for Uncroaking the dead, so saying 'she just uncroaked them' in fact means, 'she had plenty of opportunities to level'.
    I wasn't denying that uncroaking gains her XP, I was merely correcting conmor in his false assumption. And even if we assume uncroaking a target is worth the same XP as croaking them in the first place (which honestly seems very doubtful) then Wanda is still "missing out" on half the XP if she wasn't the one croaking them. So I was pointing out that conmor was assuming Wanda got twice as much or more XP than reality.
    Whispri wrote:
    Furthermore, Wanda was a widespread legend during her time at Haffaton. Gillian had heard stories about Wanda from many Sides, there's no way stories like that would be around if all she did was create zombies, indeed, Wanda even speaks of serving as a Warlord at least once.
    You can still have stories told about you even if nobody ever sees you. Considering how much people demonize Croakamancy, its no surprise that when they're attacked by uncroaked or they see uncroaked defending their former cities, they start concocting stories about the caster responsible. And it's of course possible she was present for capital fights or major battles. But as I said before, it's made abundantly clear that she was not out at the front 100% of the time; she spent a lot with Jillian and doing things like building her Garden.
    Whispri wrote:
    And at one point as I recall, Gillian, despite having just met Olive and seen her level, thought it stupid to have her as Chief Caster while Wanda was part of the Side.
    First of all, we KNOW that Wanda isn't higher level than Olive. That's not up for debate. So why would Jillian think Wanda is a better Chief? Considering that Chief Caster doesn't provide any bonus, level is irrelevant to the question. It's a position of authority, other casters have to follow orders from the CC, and they presumably are responsible for the magical strategy of the side much like the CWL is responsible for the strategy of the army. It's implied that the title goes to the highets level caster on a side, which makes sense since it's assumed they are the most knowledgable and wise. But as Wanda demonstrated in Goodminton, when your CC is revealed to be untrustworthy, and your entire military strategy hinges on using a Croakamancer....you make her the CC even though she's lower level. Jillian came to the same conclusion: Haffaton is proped up entirely by Uncroaked, so why isn't the Croakamancer in chage? Level is irrelevant.
    Whispri wrote:
    At Faq Wanda did indeed stay home while Gillian left on at least two occasions. But... what of all the other times? And Gillian's lobotomy, what if that affected her ability to level? I wouldn't be surprised if she went down in level thanks to that. And how long would it have been before she was fit to fly again? If she was incapacitated for a lengthy period, wouldn't Wanda have been left filling her shoes?
    Wild speculation with no basis, so that's not much to go on. However, let's consider the other clues. Wanda looks happy and healthy with FAQ. This is due in part to being cured of the Buds of course, but I can't believe that she'd look so good if she wasn't also happy (see Maggie). And given how the Court feels about Croakamancy, I doubt she'd be that happy if she continued to practice her craft actively in the field and got the stink eye from the Court as a result.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:55 pm 
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    I was saying that Wanda would've gained xp at Gobwin Knob for uncroaking so many hundreds of units. Also, based on stanely's REALLY straightforward battle plans, I would not be surprised if he took her along at some points to lead armies of uncroaked when they were either facing a tough city or they had many low level cities in front of them and he planned to steamroll them. English is my first language but I usually rely on auto-correct to capitalize first letters. Also I said that there was a lot of uncroaked. Nowhere did
    I say that she made them croaked. By saying that she was sent to Warchalking, i was implying that she might of been attacked at other times when she is retrieving the body. Ansom had bad scouting, but he had neither bad enough scouting or bad enough intelligence to think that the uncroaked warlords weren't previously croaked Gobwin Knob warlords. he would've been smart enough to set a trap or too, and even if they had the map; Ansom would've caught on and set one that she would have to punch through. Stanely wouldn't keep a high level caster without her doing something to help the war, and even if the troops retrieved the bodies, they most likely wouldn't have gotten so many bodies to number in the hundreds and near thousands.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:19 am 
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    conmor wrote:
    Nowhere did I say that she made them croaked.
    Oh really? Then what's this?
    conmor wrote:
    she croaked probably almost every army they tried to send against haffaton and uncroaked them
    And this?
    conmor wrote:
    wanda has been fighting on the forntlines for thousands of turns. how many sides do you think though that they could send an army to conquer haffaton?

    You're allowed to change your mind when contrary evidence is presented (I do all the time). But don't lie about where you stood in the first place. Because I WILL call you on it.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:42 pm 
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    i stood from the beginning that she did play a major part in haffaton's and Gobwin Knob's strategy. Neither side could have existed as long as they did without her.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:43 pm 
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    Also i was saying that she didn't personally croak the units she had at Gobwin Knob.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:59 am 
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    Quote:
    Edit: indeed, the text of Headmaster Isaac's bio states "he recently achieved the rarely reached level of 11" which "makes him the highest Headmaster in the Magic Kingdom." This is after having lived for 21,500 turns.
    It seems reaching level 11 is extremely difficult, which would frankly explain why we've seen multiple level 10 characters, while Isaac is the only level 11 we've seen.


    Technically true, but Olive was higher level than him when we saw her. Likewise Jillian alluded to another level 12.

    https://archives.erfworld.com/Book%200/49

    Quote:
    Jillian held her sword at the ready, but somehow did not brandish it for combat. The woman smiled and sang, stepping lightly through the snow. A Haffaton caster, some business-oriented part of Jillian‘s brain noted. Level 12, which was astonishingly rare. Jillian had only ever seen one other. How could she be that high?


    From what I gather, Wanda was notably lower level and weaker than Olive while at Haffaton. Without any hard numbers to go on, I feel she would likely have been between levels 5 and 7 or so, possibly having gained another level or two between then and the end of TBfGK. Despite what some have said, placing her at level 8 and Jillian at level 9 does certainly feel correct.

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