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 Post subject: Sizemore's Level
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:38 pm 
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In Book one, Janis said she saw that Sizemore gained two levels since she last saw him. http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F141.jpg Later on, I recall Sizemore saying that he gained three levels since then. Two for building cities and one for building traps and fortifications. I can't find the reference to that. I believe it was Sizemore who said that and not Digdoug. Am I mistaken? If Sizemore did gain 5 levels, he would be 6+ instead 4+ like it says on the wiki. http://www.erfworld.com/wiki/index.php/Sizemore Can someone help me find the references here?

Besides that what do you speculate other units levels are at? Like Jack and Wanda?

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:45 pm 
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    I think you might be counting the two as separate when in fact they overlap. In the course of the story, I believe Sizemore has gained 3 levels TOTAL. When he spoke to Janis he had gained 2, and shortly after he gained another, bringing his total to 3.

    I will be starting a thorough re-read of the entire comic as soon as the new website comes online, and updating the wiki page by page with detailed information and citation links, so that going forward we have a better base to work with.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:27 pm 
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    My understanding was that he gained two in combat and three in building. Do units gain experience if a unit in their stack croaks an enemy or do they have to be the one to croak them? What happens if a unit is croaked by a dirtamancy trap triggered by Sizemore? Does he still get the experience? I assume so...

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:38 pm 
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    I'm not sure, I just believe he only gained 3 overall, but I don't know for certain. It's one of the many many things I'll be keeping an eye on when I do my detailed read-through.

    As for what grants XP in general, I believe there are 4 ways to gain XP, outlined below. All speculation, but it makes sense and fits with what we've seen. Since Erflings don't even specifically mention XP though, and because they don't know what it takes exactly to level, I doubt we'll ever get an in-comic explanation.
    1. Training
    2. Casting any spell, for Casters
    3. In any way contributing to a unit being croaked
    4. In any way contributing to completing "objectives"
    These last two is the most common and open-ended. #3 means that when a unit croaks a target, the Warlord who's giving them a Leadership Bonus would probably get some XP, as well as the unit themselves. Similarly, Casters providing a bonus probably get some small XP reward. Similarly, participating in capturing a new city, or totally ending a side, probably also grant XP. This is how Olive got to be so high level, though I imagine she rarely actually engaged in physical combat, she croaked high value targets with poison, her Peace spell made it possible to claim new cities, and her magic made it possible to end multiple sides.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:03 pm 
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    I did a recent read of almost everything myself. The only thing that I haven't reread is Parson's Hamstard webcomic (obviously) and Book 0. I'm one of the few I know keeping the TV Trope page for Erfworld up to date as well as all it's subpages. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Webcomic/Erfworld That's why I remember something being mentioned about Sizemore's levels somewhere. Another interesting point is figuring out how "mastery" for a magic class works. Sizemore's claims that he is getting closer to getting there, but it seems to me that level 4 would be too low for such an epiphany. Surely he would be a higher level due to his work with golems and mining operations. He was popped under King Saline IV after all and how many turns back was that?

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:09 pm 
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    Well we don't know that Sizemore was a 1 when Parson was summoned, in fact I'd almost be certain he wasn't since he came along with Stanley to conquer old FAQ. So even if he only gained 3 levels since Parson arrived, he could still be a 6-8.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:21 pm 
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    Exactly, that's what makes me so curious. I wish Rob would make a level chart for the various units, but it would just be more work. We will see, I suppose.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:01 am 
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    I believe this is the update in question: http://www.erfworld.com/book-2-archive/ ... -03-31.png

    The paragraph with the relevant data: "Between the volcano link-up and his three recent levels (two from traps and combat, one from all of the city rebuilding), Sizemore was now a greater Dirtamancer than he ever imagined he could become. He had not actually crossed the threshold to Master class, but that could happen any time a caster gained powerful new insight into his discipline or major class. The body analogy wasn't quite enough to push him past that mark; he was still missing something. But for the first time in his life, he felt pretty sure that he would get there."

    It seems to imply a total of +3, 2 from the battle at Gobwin Knob, and one from rebuilding cities that Wanda and Ansom captured between Book 1 and 2.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:23 am 
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    iirc Pamelor is the "youngest" and lowest leveled of the great minds at level 7, and a master class Thinkamancer. So there's odds that Sizemore is in the 5-6 range.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:27 am 
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    Spicymancer wrote:
    iirc Pamelor is the "youngest" and lowest leveled of the great minds at level 7, and a master class Thinkamancer. So there's odds that Sizemore is in the 5-6 range.


    Part of it is also skill, so you could be master class before or much later than level 7. Sizemore needs more insight, not just raw power, to become a master class Dirtamancer. Higher levels tend to have more knowledge, but not always enough to be master class.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:20 pm 
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    Durmatagno wrote:
    Part of it is also skill, so you could be master class before or much later than level 7. Sizemore needs more insight, not just raw power, to become a master class Dirtamancer. Higher levels tend to have more knowledge, but not always enough to be master class.
    Take Jack for example, we have no idea how old he is and what FAQ used to be like, but if he popped under Banhammer and things were always so peaceful, he must have been rather low level yet he was already a Master at that point.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:28 pm 
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    0beron wrote:
    Durmatagno wrote:
    Part of it is also skill, so you could be master class before or much later than level 7. Sizemore needs more insight, not just raw power, to become a master class Dirtamancer. Higher levels tend to have more knowledge, but not always enough to be master class.
    Take Jack for example, we have no idea how old he is and what FAQ used to be like, but if he popped under Banhammer and things were always so peaceful, he must have been rather low level yet he was already a Master at that point.

    I could see Jack coming into master level quite early. But seeing as how the entirety of the Kingdom relied on upon his being able to veil an entire city, he's probably pretty old.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:46 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    0beron wrote:
    Durmatagno wrote:
    Part of it is also skill, so you could be master class before or much later than level 7. Sizemore needs more insight, not just raw power, to become a master class Dirtamancer. Higher levels tend to have more knowledge, but not always enough to be master class.
    Take Jack for example, we have no idea how old he is and what FAQ used to be like, but if he popped under Banhammer and things were always so peaceful, he must have been rather low level yet he was already a Master at that point.

    I could see Jack coming into master level quite early. But seeing as how the entirety of the Kingdom relied on upon his being able to veil an entire city, he's probably pretty old.


    That's something that's always... not bugged me, but made me really curious. Faq's whole isolation shtick relies on three casters, of which Jack is possibly the most critical. So how exactly do you go from level 1 to master class under a king who abhors fighting? Training and casting for fun? He'd need a major boot camp training to get that far, that fast. My guess is he's originally a barbarian or from another side, and was hired by Banhammer only to then fully join the side. It's either that, or Banhammer's dad put Jack to a lot of use in battle. Which, on another tangent, would be a hilarious family cycle. Warmonger king, pacifist son. Pacifist king, warmonger princess. I just pray whoever Jill pops as an heir is as ethically minded and peace loving as Banhammer. For the lulz. :lol:

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:49 pm 
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    All casting helps level a caster, so every time he veiled a city he'd be closer to leveling. How do you think most casters level? 90% of casters can't fight in open combat, and those that do are usually being buffed by items, or are shockmancers that can sling around damaging spells everywhere.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:09 pm 
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    Durmatagno wrote:
    All casting helps level a caster, so every time he veiled a city he'd be closer to leveling. How do you think most casters level? 90% of casters can't fight in open combat, and those that do are usually being buffed by items, or are shockmancers that can sling around damaging spells everywhere.


    What I find implausible about the scenario is he made Master Class before enemies ever showed up. Sure, they wouldn't show up every day, but it would be hundreds of turns of practice casting, possibly thousands, before making it to master class. And there'd have to be dozens of times in such a span when someone would come knocking. It's just too big a time window of vulnerability.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:10 am 
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    Probably only had one city while he was leveling, then Jillian found some cities and decided to take them. While they were a single city, the mountains hid them.

    As for Jillian's heir, it's a hunch of mine that it will be a caster.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:21 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Probably only had one city while he was leveling, then Jillian found some cities and decided to take them. While they were a single city, the mountains hid them.

    As for Jillian's heir, it's a hunch of mine that it will be a caster.


    All three cities where in the valley with the Capital. Maybe he leveled dealing with sides that used to own the cities before Jillian warred with them or Banhammer convinced them to come over peacefully?

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:52 am 
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    Or he leveled because veiling a whole city is hard and he did that probably lots of times... it also strikes me that Jack is the member of FAQs court who would have used his juice for fun most turns ifbthere was not a city to veil. Doesn't seem like FAQs casters made scrolls, though they could have, but I could see Jack using most of his.juice every turn for funsies, and that is still practicing his trade.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:55 pm 
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    I expect that Banhammer, when planning FAQ, knew he could rely on Jack's proven city-veiling ability. Possibly also Marie. The others are unimportant.

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     Post subject: Re: Sizemore's Level
     Post Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:00 am 
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    Veiling a city isn't necessarily the only way to protect a hidden side. Cleverly used tricks on a smaller scale could have protected them, things that would make would-be enemies turn away from entering the valley in the first place. Which might have the added benefit of of technically counting as a "retreat" and thus giving Jack's stack a victory, and XP to level with faster.
    Or, Jack is quite old and Banhammer himself wasn't always peaceful. It is mentioned once that "all the sides who once knew Banhammer were now long gone" which suggests that at minimum they have diplomatic relations with other sides. Those relations could have been friendly or aggressive, and it was only after some time that Banhammer turned to isolationist peace, perhaps once he had casters skilled enough to pull it off.

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