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 Post subject: David's New Art
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:33 pm 
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This has been discussed in reactions enough that I just kinda wanted to bring it over here in an effort to maybe not have to read about it every couple posts.

Personally, I am enjoying David's art. I enjoy all the different visualizations that the comic has taken over time, and I will not pretend that I did not love Xin's Erfworld art. As Tanaar pointed out, this book seems to be intentionally simpler, and not a representation of any poor artistry. I think there is some tweaking to be done, but I cannot draw amazingly so I am not fit to say it isn't good enough. I very much enjoyed the first pages and think they are doing the story justice.

Thoughts?

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     Post subject: Re: David's New Art
     Post Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:58 pm 
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    Haters gon' hate. People despise change.

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     Post subject: Re: David's New Art
     Post Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 1:27 am 
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    Tanaar wrote:
    Haters gon' hate. People despise change.


    Awesome dismissive comment. I might as well return that fanboys and fangirls will support the creators no matter what, but that would be dismissive as well.

    Liking art is subjective, beauty being in the eye of the beholder and all that. For the people who like the art, they are right and more power to them. I am glad that people like the new stuff. For the people who don't like the new art, they are also right. I hope the story telling is enough to keep them here.

    This isn't an art appreciation class, it is a forum for a webcomic. Everyone should have a right to state their opinion of if they like the new art or not and there is no reason to criticize someone for having a personal opinion.

    For me, I don't like the new style. I recognize that the artist has skill. It is not poorly drawn at all. I just don't happen to like how it looks.

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     Post subject: Re: David's New Art
     Post Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 10:50 am 
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    Daefaroth, I put up two articulate posts in the page 2 reactions thread explaining why I had no problem with the new art, and why it's much better than the complaints suggest. I feel that most (not all) of the complaints are driven by a resistance to change and unreasonable standards. The biggest issue people have had prior to now has been the slow update schedule. Now it's updating faster, with simpler art, and suddenly that's unacceptable?

    I repeat, haters gon' hate.

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     Post subject: Re: David's New Art
     Post Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 11:37 am 
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    Personally, I never complained about the slowed update schedule.

    I'm just trying to point out that there is nothing wrong with your opinion that the art is good just like there isn't anything wrong with my opinion that the art isn't as good.

    However, it is also my opinion that you dismissively labeling most (not all) of the people who don't like the art as "haters" is intentional flamebait and an attempt to provoke a shouting match rather than having an intelligent conversation on the subject.

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     Post subject: Re: David's New Art
     Post Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:23 pm 
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    I'm a tad torn.

    I've always liked Jaime's art. And Xin blew me away at the level of quality she could produce.

    But at the same time we have to recognize that when you make a Sistine Chapel every update it's going to come at a cost schedule wise. And I can accept that.

    David can do good work. I was a bit nervous at first but the single pieces he did for the epilogue show'd he's got the artistic chops to do the comic.

    But the most recent page just...didn't hack it in my eyes. Especially the panel with Parson yelling to throw away a LIVE HAND GRENADE with about as much facial expression as a corporate tax attorney.

    It makes me wonder if we'd have been better off with the mid tier reward and getting text pages with a few panels of art.

    I really hate to be negative about one of my top three favorite webcomics (and the only one I've ever spent money on at that) but I have to be honest here.

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     Post subject: Re: David's New Art
     Post Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 3:29 pm 
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    Personally, I like the art.

    The few specific complaints I've seen about details in the artistry are things I didn't even notice until they were pointed out, and they don't distract me from the story. I still got the urgency from Parson with his current facial expression and the lack of all-caps or extra exclamation marks of his wording.

    I like the lines of the characters, and they are clearly who/what they are supposed to be.

    I like the variance in the angle of viewing that we see in this art.

    And, I like that I don't feel a need to go through the art with a fine-toothed comb to look for relevant details that I might have missed the first time. (I definitely felt like I had to do that with the previous artist when I came onto the forums, since everyone seemed to think art-based details that I'd missed were common knowledge.)

    In general, I think the art does what it is supposed to do. It tells the story alongside the script. And, it looks good to the casual viewer while doing it.

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     Post subject: Re: David's New Art
     Post Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 6:10 pm 
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    I think it's just the faces that bother me. Not just on the "throw it away" panel. The shape of everyone's faces is just a curved line. They don't really seem to have chins or jaws, with Ace being the exception. Everything else I think I could get used to. But the faces are just so... blank.

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     Post subject: Re: David's New Art
     Post Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:53 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    I think it's just the faces that bother me. Not just on the "throw it away" panel. The shape of everyone's faces is just a curved line. They don't really seem to have chins or jaws, with Ace being the exception. Everything else I think I could get used to. But the faces are just so... blank.


    I have to agree with respect to the faces being jarring - maybe it's just me, but Parson's facial features on this page just look awfully small relative to his head (esp. panels 5 and 6). Unless that's intended to suggest that he's very plump?

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     Post subject: Re: David's New Art
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 2:37 am 
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    I think the faces would look better if they were more expressive. Not necessarily more details, but bigger ones. This is a cartoony world, where eye shape changes a lot like Batman under his cowl in the cartoons. Also, since this is still frames, it could be even more exaggerated since we don't get the motion we would in a cartoon. A realistic image of body language that is less readable than in real life due to being muted by platemail is very hard to read. (I've mild prosopagnosia. I read cartoony faces in stylized art and body language in real life and super detailed art, so I am limited in what cues I can tell you about.)

    I also think it would be a little easier to follow if the perspective did not change as much. It is great page 2 panel 3, where the perspective gives information on where the little guy is. Panels 5 and 6 on the same page are a bit confusing, since the only landmark is a bunch of perfectly symmetrical columns. It is kind of hard to follow, I reread it 3 times without looking at the text.

    Just my 2 Schmuckers, though.

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     Post subject: Re: David's New Art
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:43 am 
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    spriteless wrote:
    I think the faces would look better if they were more expressive. Not necessarily more details, but bigger ones. This is a cartoony world, where eye shape changes a lot like Batman under his cowl in the cartoons. Also, since this is still frames, it could be even more exaggerated since we don't get the motion we would in a cartoon. A realistic image of body language that is less readable than in real life due to being muted by platemail is very hard to read. (I've mild prosopagnosia. I read cartoony faces in stylized art and body language in real life and super detailed art, so I am limited in what cues I can tell you about.)

    I also think it would be a little easier to follow if the perspective did not change as much. It is great page 2 panel 3, where the perspective gives information on where the little guy is. Panels 5 and 6 on the same page are a bit confusing, since the only landmark is a bunch of perfectly symmetrical columns. It is kind of hard to follow, I reread it 3 times without looking at the text.

    Just my 2 Schmuckers, though.


    The perspective thing didn't bug me so much. But I'm with you on the expression thing.

    Granted it would be easy to go to far in the other direction and be just as bad. It is true that art is a subtle thing. Makes me glad to be a programmer, I don't have to deal with this kinda vague goal stuff.

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     Post subject: Re: David's New Art
     Post Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:15 am 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    I think it's just the faces that bother me. Not just on the "throw it away" panel. The shape of everyone's faces is just a curved line. They don't really seem to have chins or jaws, with Ace being the exception. Everything else I think I could get used to. But the faces are just so... blank.


    This is pretty close to it for me, also it seems strange to me that the art I thought that david was doing (the erfabet) seems to be at a different level than the recent comics, am I mistaken and he did not do those?

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     Post subject: Re: David's New Art
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 1:36 am 
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    The faces in book one weren't exactly filled with laborious levels of detail either. Go back and read the first few pages and you'll see that each character's face only has one or two detailed features - just the eyes, or just the lips, or just the hair, or whatever. The new art for Book 3 is different, sure, but I don't think it's any worse. I think the simpler art style reinforces what we've been forgetting, that Erfworld is a cartoony game-like world, and always has been. That's not to say that more detailed art was ever a bad thing, but it means that simpler art isn't bad either.

    Basically I think David's art fits Erfworld quite well, and while it's different to what we got used to in Book 2, we'll be happy enough to forget we ever minded the difference. It's just the webcomic equivalent of New Doctor Syndrome. David is Matt Smith, Xin was David Tennant. It'll be only a matter of time before we forget we were ever upset at the difference.

    For my part, David, you're doing a good job. You're not Xin - and I respect the fact that you're not trying to be her. You're using your own style instead of copying hers, which is as it should be. Keep up the good work and you'll get the fans you deserve.

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     Post subject: Re: David's New Art
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:34 am 
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    Selexor wrote:
    The faces in book one weren't exactly filled with laborious levels of detail either. Go back and read the first few pages and you'll see that each character's face only has one or two detailed features - just the eyes, or just the lips, or just the hair, or whatever. The new art for Book 3 is different, sure, but I don't think it's any worse. I think the simpler art style reinforces what we've been forgetting, that Erfworld is a cartoony game-like world, and always has been. That's not to say that more detailed art was ever a bad thing, but it means that simpler art isn't bad either.

    Basically I think David's art fits Erfworld quite well, and while it's different to what we got used to in Book 2, we'll be happy enough to forget we ever minded the difference. It's just the webcomic equivalent of New Doctor Syndrome. David is Matt Smith, Xin was David Tennant. It'll be only a matter of time before we forget we were ever upset at the difference.

    For my part, David, you're doing a good job. You're not Xin - and I respect the fact that you're not trying to be her. You're using your own style instead of copying hers, which is as it should be. Keep up the good work and you'll get the fans you deserve.


    Bad example. I never got used to Matt Smith. I'm still miffed that Eccleston only got one season.

    I really do hope you're right. Honestly I had a bit of an adjustment period between Jamie and Xin as well. But time will tell.

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     Post subject: Re: David's New Art
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:30 pm 
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    Truth. Eccleston is my favorite Doctor.

    Daefaroth, don't project your own values on me. I don't troll, I don't flame, and I certainly don't provoke others to do so. The art achieves its goal of providing visual reference for the story. Everything else is extra. The people that are tearing down decent work, just because it doesn't meet their inflated standards? That's hating, and I refuse to accept it.

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     Post subject: Re: David's New Art
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 6:41 pm 
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    No need to compare David to Jamie or Xin or anyone.

    Just compare David to David.

    Erfworld Book 3, art by David Hahn:

    http://www.erfworld.com/2014/07/book-3-page-1/
    http://www.erfworld.com/2014/07/book-3-page-2/

    Erfworld Book 2 Epilogues, art by David Hahn:

    http://www.erfworld.com/wp-content/uplo ... e_9002.jpg
    http://www.erfworld.com/wp-content/uplo ... ie_900.jpg
    http://www.erfworld.com/wp-content/uplo ... ny_900.jpg
    http://www.erfworld.com/wp-content/uplo ... ll_900.jpg

    DAYGLOW #1, art by David Hahn:

    http://periscopestudio.com/dayglow-1-ou ... avid-hahn/

    Same artist, varying degrees of quality.

    The post-apocalyptic comic book is a creator-owned series and shows him at his peak, but even within Erfworld, you see a lot more love in the Epilogues. I don't think anyone would be complaining if Book 3 had at least maintained the same quality. However, remember this is not being produced in real time, there is a buffer of pages already done. I wonder if schedule pressure prevented David from doing his absolute best, and if the same pressure led Rob to accepting the art as delivered.

    On a side note, I can't help but notice @David_Hahn never mentions Erfworld in Twitter... damn, this debate is making me bitter :-(

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     Post subject: Re: David's New Art
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:43 pm 
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    Okay, see, what you've just done is shown that David is capable of a variety of art styles. He can draw things in a different way if he so chooses. Which means that the current artwork for Book 3 was a deliberate choice on his part. Now, it's fine if you don't agree with that choice, or if you'd prefer if he used another style. Tastes, opinions, all that. But where the heck do you get off saying that this work is lower quality? If he chose to draw Book 3 looking like it did then it's not low-quality, it's exactly what he wanted it to be. I happen to think it suits the style of Erfworld, which has all along been intended to be cartoonish and simple, very well. And even if you don't personally like it very much, that doesn't make it bad!

    Do you think he intentionally chose to bring anything less than his best to Erfworld? Or that Rob would have accepted anything less? Good lord, try to imagine how he must feel if he sees this thread and people are dismissing his work as "Well he OBVIOUSLY didn't make it very high-quality, and it's CLEARLY not his best." If there's anything at all to back up the theory that he was drawing at less than 100%, please share that? But otherwise that's an incredibly rude thing to say about an artist's work. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's something he didn't work at.

    I'm sorry if I seem like I'm attacking you here, but you're being very unfair to David saying some of the things you're saying. All that work of his you linked says that he could indeed have drawn the last couple of pages in a different style. So the fact that he didn't only has two reasonable explanations. One is that yes, some mitigating factor made it come out sub-par, but given there's no evidence whatsoever of that, I'm leaning toward option two: That this was a deliberate artistic choice on his part, and one that Rob clearly trusts his judgement on. So how about we try the same thing?

    Maybe the reason David doesn't mention Erfworld on Twitter is that we're only two pages into the new book and people are dismissing his work as not good enough. If I were in his shoes I wouldn't exactly be cheerful about it either. But how about - crazy idea here - we let the book go on for more than two pages, see what he can do for Erfworld, and THEN pass judgement?

    And in case it's not clear, for the record, I at least like David's art style. So if you do read this thread, David, keep up the good work.

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     Post subject: Re: David's New Art
     Post Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:48 pm 
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    Selexor wrote:
    Okay, see, what you've just done is shown that David is capable of a variety of art .


    And in every one of those examples, the mouths look weird to me. I'm with others - no problem with the art in general but the faces, particularly the expressions just seem amateurish.

    I can't remember where I saw this - Toolbox maybe - but there was a great post of several sketches that Xin did to get Parson's expression perfect for the lolwut when Maggie charmed Stanley.

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     Post subject: Re: David's New Art
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 12:18 am 
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    Selexor wrote:
    And in case it's not clear, for the record, I at least like David's art style. So if you do read this thread, David, keep up the good work.


    It's probably not clear from this thread, but elsewhere I've already stated I like David's style and I think it matches Erfworld well. I was very pleased with his work in the Epilogues and the Erfabet. I still have high hopes for his work in Book 3 and I don't understand why these first 2 pages came out so different from his previous demonstrations of Erfworld skill. Why deliberately choose to change that?

    Selexor wrote:
    If there's anything at all to back up the theory that he was drawing at less than 100%, please share that?


    It's hard to show you without going the effort of pasting panel-by-panel comparisons here in the thread, so please humor me and compare the Epilogues and the Book 3 pages side-by-side. Compare Parson and Vinny's faces from the Epilogues to everyone-but-Ace's faces from Book 3. Compare the backgrounds in Parson's bedroom or Charlescomm City or Bill's dungeon from the Epilogues to the backgrounds in the Magic Kingdom from Book 3. Compare the nuanced-versus-flat coloring and shading of... everything... between the Epilogues and Book 3. (Save the awesome close-up of the toy soldier in high grass.) Even the number of lines and jots and segments employed to convey wrinkles in clothing and general detail in buildings is higher in the Epilogues than in Book 3. I feel like crap saying all that because it sounds like I'm nitpicking, but there's no other objective way I can think of to express my general assessment that Book 3 pages have been given less technical effort than the Epilogues. The style is the same, cartoonish and simple as we love it in Erfworld. But the quality is lower, it just feels rushed. And I can't understand what could have happened for it to change.

    Selexor wrote:
    But how about - crazy idea here - we let the book go on for more than two pages, see what he can do for Erfworld, and THEN pass judgement?


    Sorry. I've already been through all that in the Erfabet Kickstarter. I've let the illustrations go on, saw what he could do, passed my judgement and David won. And then the Epilogues came and cemented the positive impression. I was excited to see what those single-panel glimpses would become when realized in full comic pages from an obviously skilled artist. Now after these 2 pages I feel confused and worried, and I need some kind of reassurance for what's coming next. I want the 47 Book 3 Kickstarter bonus full color splash pages to be as nice to look at and carefully crafted as the Epilogues were.

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     Post subject: Re: David's New Art
     Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:55 am 
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    Aha. Fair enough, then - in my defence, I had no way of knowing your full stance on the subject from reading the thread, but you've clearly put more consideration into it than I initially thought. I'm sorry for jumping to a conclusion so quickly! It's just that, well, there are quite a few people who are dismissing his work without giving it a chance, and... well, I'm sure you get the idea.

    I can respect that you're familiar with his art and don't like the chosen style in this case. And I apologise if it seemed I got snitty with you. No hard feelings I hope.

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