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 Post subject: On casters and linkups
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:29 pm 
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ok this started in my mind as something just about the "caster" linkups (thanks to book 3 page 1 being posted), but then I realized some background on my assumptions on why it would be so would be needed to so I am adding a bit about casters and commanders here as well...

Few things to note about casters for my question (later) on linkups:

1.) casters are commanders
2.) to try to pop a caster you (seem to) need to be popping warlords (i.e. Wanda was expected to be a warlord, Jillian comments about usually getting a caster amongst first few warlords)
3.) casters can link-up (NOTE: possibly units with casting specials can link up as well... An Archon made note of being in a link with charlie feeling "just... whoa")

Now I've read through some of the forums and notice some people think of a caster being a 'rare' special of being a warlord (archery or seafarer might be common specials for example, while flight might be uncommon). However I don't think so... I think that it is more likely that a "Commander Unit" is being popped... and it is randomly determined what it's leadership level will be.
basic example is:
Popping a "Commander Unit"- roll (2d12-1)/2 to determine leadership score (If score is less than 1 {happens on a roll of 2 because of the -1, and dividing by 2 makes it a half point} you get a caster [no leadership, still a commander]) total of roll = leadership score (Parson was declared as having a leadership of 2 ["which was not great, just one more thing for the tool to grumble about"] {average leadership from this roll would be a 3 making this fit})
due to having no leadership casters are thus 'commanders' that have little battle awareness and are thus weak in combat...

So here comes my link-up question/interest (one which I would think Parson would think of quite readily)...
...
...
drumroll please...
...
Can a thinkamancer link a caster to a warlord?

Originally the linkup was declared as a 'caster link-up'. But is that a definition of the spell? or definition of it's usage (being used to link casters)?
Now I know some people might go "But Kilan, WHY would you want to link a caster to a warlord, linkups only allow combining of magic disciplines..." but I remember a few things in earlier comics that would make this intriguing.
1.) Maggie and Sizemore linked up and Maggie's "will" assisted in sizemore's casting (linking a warlord to a caster might make more combat efficient spells/golems/accessories [Golems with leadership, warlord's special being granted to golem, accesorry being more useful to warlord etc.)
2.) in Sizemore and Wanda's Linkup the two 'communicated' to combine their disciplines... a warlord's view on things could have a similar twist to spells
3.) Archons can link with Charlie (is it only a function of the Arkendish, or can a linkup be done normally with such units?) [remember archons have caster specials but are not declared as being casters]

well, regardless of that possibility, supposedly Parson is a type of caster (entry into Magic Kingdom, watch/bracer said he could cast a dirtamancy spell, attempted casting of the carnamancy scroll), so when he thinks of this, would he try a link-up? if he tries (from what info we've been given) such a link-up would most likely work, and I would love to see how a mind like his would take to receiving such a boost...

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     Post Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2014 2:44 am 
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    kilantolshi wrote:
    (NOTE: possibly units with casting specials can link up as well... An Archon made note of being in a link with charlie feeling "just... whoa")

    Nope. That wasn't an Archon. See here.

    kilantolshi wrote:
    Now I've read through some of the forums and notice some people think of a caster being a 'rare' special of being a warlord (archery or seafarer might be common specials for example, while flight might be uncommon). However I don't think so... I think that it is more likely that a "Commander Unit" is being popped... and it is randomly determined what it's leadership level will be.
    basic example is:
    Popping a "Commander Unit"- roll (2d12-1)/2 to determine leadership score (If score is less than 1 {happens on a roll of 2 because of the -1, and dividing by 2 makes it a half point} you get a caster [no leadership, still a commander]) total of roll = leadership score (Parson was declared as having a leadership of 2 ["which was not great, just one more thing for the tool to grumble about"] {average leadership from this roll would be a 3 making this fit})
    due to having no leadership casters are thus 'commanders' that have little battle awareness and are thus weak in combat...

    Caster is specifically mentioned as a special by Parson's glasses.

    kilantolshi wrote:
    Can a thinkamancer link a caster to a warlord?

    I added that spec to the bottom of the Speculative Linkups page and considered whether their leadership could be transmitted over distances and such.

    kilantolshi wrote:
    well, regardless of that possibility, supposedly Parson is a type of caster (entry into Magic Kingdom, watch/bracer said he could cast a dirtamancy spell, attempted casting of the carnamancy scroll), so when he thinks of this, would he try a link-up?

    Agreed. Even if it isn't normally possible, it would indeed be interesting to see what the results of linking a caster/warlord hybrid like Parson would be.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:35 am 
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    ManaCaster wrote:
    Caster is specifically mentioned as a special by Parson's glasses.


    I don't remember ever seeing the implication that his glasses viewed him as a caster. His Stupid Meal in book 1 stated that Gobwin Knob had one Chief Warlord, level 2, and that he was "special" with no further clarification then that.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:24 am 
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    Thecommander236 wrote:
    ManaCaster wrote:
    Caster is specifically mentioned as a special by Parson's glasses.


    I don't remember ever seeing the implication that his glasses viewed him as a caster. His Stupid Meal in book 1 stated that Gobwin Knob had one Chief Warlord, level 2, and that he was "special" with no further clarification then that.

    No one can see Parson's stats, even when he looked in a mirror with the glasses. But when he looked at Jack, it listed Foolamancy as a special.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:31 am 
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    Thecommander236 wrote:
    ManaCaster wrote:
    Caster is specifically mentioned as a special by Parson's glasses.


    I don't remember ever seeing the implication that his glasses viewed him as a caster. His Stupid Meal in book 1 stated that Gobwin Knob had one Chief Warlord, level 2, and that he was "special" with no further clarification then that.

    I'm sorry, I must have worded my sentence too vaguely. I didn't intend to say that his glasses revealed Parson as a caster. In that line, I was refuting the idea that caster isn't a special. More specifically, I was referring to here, where Jack's specials are listed as caster and Foolamancer.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:53 am 
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    Paron's leadership score is also so low because his level is low, leadership score, IE the bonus awarded to commanded units, and the like, is linked to the warlords level. A higher level warlord, even if worse than a newly popped one, is usually more valuable because they provide a larger bonus to their units. This also seems to be why all the Chiefs we see are usually the highest level warlords, they give the larges bonus to everyone.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:03 am 
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    And the Chief Warlord gives an additional, side-wide bonus based on level. Meaning that a newly popped one is generally not an advisable action.

    Funny enough, though, as we saw in Book 2, being the Chief Warlord and there granting you bonus doesn't mean you call all the shots. :)
    (Poor Ansom...)

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:09 am 
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    Th Revanchist wrote:
    And the Chief Warlord gives an additional, side-wide bonus based on level. Meaning that a newly popped one is generally not an advisable action.

    Funny enough, though, as we saw in Book 2, being the Chief Warlord and there granting you bonus doesn't mean you call all the shots. :)
    (Poor Ansom...)


    Also true, but Parson is starting to level, so soon he might be valuable for more than just his brains. Then again, we don't know his combat stats, he is a pretty good sized unit by Erfworld standards. He even went one on one with a doll and won with very little damage, then croaked the double of Slately. The only reason we know his level is the bracer, and the others, his bonus.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:09 am 
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    A Chief Warlord of high level is generally better than one of low level, true. And certainly sides that run on numbers seem to make that their priority, though we've seen that's not always the right choice. Slately (or his double, technically) admitted at the end that he always favoured his higher-level sons when he should have put his faith in Tramennis all along. Don King found it was a wiser choice to promote Caesar based on skill rather than level or nobility. When it comes down to it, I suppose it works just like a game should. There's the Most Optimal choice according to the numbers, which is always a solid tactic... but if you're clever enough, a choice based on something other than sheer numbers can be the more effective one in a battlefield situation.

    I'm also reminded of Panel Four of this strip, all the way back at the start of the comic. It's often hailed as an example of Stanley's poor tactical ability... but I've always thought otherwise. Stanley was a Piker who became a Warlord who became a Chief Warlord who became an Heir who became a Ruler, and he did it fighting on the front lines of his army every single step of the way. He's an idiot in almost every other way, but when it comes to battles, Stanley's capabilities and tactical mind should not be underestimated. Now, in this case, the RCC1 was defeating Gobwin Knob because of sheer numbers, but the fact that it required such a huge alliance to defeat him should in itself be considered kind of a compliment, don't you think?
    The point being that Stanley chose his Warlords based on something other than level, and Wanda only disagreed because she had a better option. It seems lazy to say just promote the handsomest one, but let's not forget personal Signamancy here. The Warlord who looks like a strong, dashing hero probably is a strong, dashing hero. Add that bit of Fridge Logic to the fact that Stanley really must know what he's doing to be where he is in the first place, and suddenly picking a Chief based on something other than level makes a lot of sense!

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:23 am 
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    I never thought of it that way. :\

    He probably would take it as a compliment... Until they started winning. :)

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:33 am 
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    There's also the fact that the hammer was at least in part responsible for his promotions, and because it allowed them to *pop* Dwagons, their strength. Certainly he has to have some mind for tactics to get as far as he did, but the Royal Coalition simply had better ones. Ansom wasn't a nearly as good as Parson, or Tramenis, or probably Ceaser from what we're seeing, but he was still above the average, including Stanley. The size of the coalition wasn't so that they actually had a chance, its because King Slately (probably using Tramenis) convinced them to forget grievances for the time being in order to deal with this upstart, non-royal side. With Parson heading the armies of GK, Tramenis leading Jetsone, a potential civil war in Transylvito, and Charlie in direct conflict, not via conflict, we're about to have four rather good minds leading four rather good sized sides all up against each other. Problem is there's three working against Parson, unless Bunny, via talks with the great minds, can be convinced and then convince Ceaser of allying with GK against Charlie (Likely refusing to help in dealing with other sides, cept maybe the Carpudlians and Jittari, maaaybe Faq). Parson isn't having an easier time as the war goes on, he's having a harder time.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:56 am 
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    Well... When your mission is "change all of Erfworld", the guys that rely on the status quo (everyone except GK) are going to be... Upset.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:35 pm 
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    That just made me realize just how against Parson Jillian is going to be. She hates Stanley, so she was always going to be against Gobwin Knob. But even if Parson was made heir, and Stanley croaked, I suspect she'd want nothing to do with the side. She has some extremely good reasons to hate Hippymancers, and Parson's supposed purpose is to end war. Jillian LOVES war!

    Seems obvious stating it like this now, but we haven't seen Jillian interact with Hippymancers in present day, so it never occurred to me.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 1:59 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    That just made me realize just how against Parson Jillian is going to be. She hates Stanley, so she was always going to be against Gobwin Knob. But even if Parson was made heir, and Stanley croaked, I suspect she'd want nothing to do with the side. She has some extremely good reasons to hate Hippymancers, and Parson's supposed purpose is to end war. Jillian LOVES war!

    Seems obvious stating it like this now, but we haven't seen Jillian interact with Hippymancers in present day, so it never occurred to me.


    Parson might not actually be a hippymancer, the hippymancers just call him one because his purpose is to end or shake up the way war is done (so that less day, as the Grand Abbie said, peaces is impossible, but progress is not (bit o paraphrasing, but it means the same). We know he has a high chance of casting a Carnymancy scroll, and no one can see his stats or specials, not even him. He could very well be some kind of Omnimancer, ability to cast in all disciplines, but its much harder for him to start because he seems to be wired into the world mainly as a Warlord. Once he starts casting, it'll be easier, if he ever casts, but I think it'll always still be harder for him than a normal caster.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:03 pm 
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    Durmatagno wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    That just made me realize just how against Parson Jillian is going to be. She hates Stanley, so she was always going to be against Gobwin Knob. But even if Parson was made heir, and Stanley croaked, I suspect she'd want nothing to do with the side. She has some extremely good reasons to hate Hippymancers, and Parson's supposed purpose is to end war. Jillian LOVES war!

    Seems obvious stating it like this now, but we haven't seen Jillian interact with Hippymancers in present day, so it never occurred to me.


    Parson might not actually be a hippymancer, the hippymancers just call him one because his purpose is to end or shake up the way war is done (so that less day, as the Grand Abbie said, peaces is impossible, but progress is not (bit o paraphrasing, but it means the same). We know he has a high chance of casting a Carnymancy scroll, and no one can see his stats or specials, not even him. He could very well be some kind of Omnimancer, ability to cast in all disciplines, but its much harder for him to start because he seems to be wired into the world mainly as a Warlord. Once he starts casting, it'll be easier, if he ever casts, but I think it'll always still be harder for him than a normal caster.
    I'm not saying he's a Hippymancer (though he may be). I'm saying he was brought to Erf as part of a Hippymancer plot, and Janis is an ally. Between Parson's affiliation with the Hippys and Stanley, I imagine her prejudices will get the best of her.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 2:10 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    Durmatagno wrote:
    Lipkin wrote:
    That just made me realize just how against Parson Jillian is going to be. She hates Stanley, so she was always going to be against Gobwin Knob. But even if Parson was made heir, and Stanley croaked, I suspect she'd want nothing to do with the side. She has some extremely good reasons to hate Hippymancers, and Parson's supposed purpose is to end war. Jillian LOVES war!

    Seems obvious stating it like this now, but we haven't seen Jillian interact with Hippymancers in present day, so it never occurred to me.


    Parson might not actually be a hippymancer, the hippymancers just call him one because his purpose is to end or shake up the way war is done (so that less day, as the Grand Abbie said, peaces is impossible, but progress is not (bit o paraphrasing, but it means the same). We know he has a high chance of casting a Carnymancy scroll, and no one can see his stats or specials, not even him. He could very well be some kind of Omnimancer, ability to cast in all disciplines, but its much harder for him to start because he seems to be wired into the world mainly as a Warlord. Once he starts casting, it'll be easier, if he ever casts, but I think it'll always still be harder for him than a normal caster.
    I'm not saying he's a Hippymancer (though he may be). I'm saying he was brought to Erf as part of a Hippymancer plot, and Janis is an ally. Between Parson's affiliation with the Hippys and Stanley, I imagine her prejudices will get the best of her.


    True. Makes me think about whatever the changes Betsy made to Jillian actually are, she tried and failed to remove her warrior nature, but still altered Jillian's. That kind of tampering would probably leave a mark, so I wonder what she'll think of Charlie when/if she discovers this. My guess is that if Stanley is out of the picture, or if he's still around, and she's pissed enough, she'll create a non-aggression pact with GK, they don't work together, but not against each other, till one of them destroys Charlie, and probably Betsy (Wiki doesn't say she's croaked, so she could still be alive)

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:51 pm 
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    That which Jillian does not know cannot trigger her prejudices. Has Charlie or anyone else told her this relationship?

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     Post Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:18 pm 
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    I've theorized before that even if Charlie didn't tell anyone else about what he and Betsy did to Jillian's mind, there's still one person who might have figured it out - Jack. He knew Jillian better than anyone alive. He was her only friend at FAQ, he was in love with her, and as a Foolamancer, he's always had pretty amazingly good insight into the minds of others. If what Charlie and Betsy did truly altered Jillian's character, well... it's not unreasonable to assume that FAQ knew Charlie and Betsy were doing something in Jillian's head, even if they didn't know the details. I mean they had to have known on at least some level. And Jack's just clever enough to have his suspicions, I've always thought.

    The reason I bring that up in this thread is because Jack's now able to tell Parson everything he knows about Charlie, Jillian, FAQ, and everything in between. If Jack had even the slightest inkling that Jillian was once mind-raped by Charlie, it'd make perfect sense for him to mention it to Parson. And furthermore, if Betsy is still alive, she's almost certainly in the Magic Kingdom right now. Where Jack and Parson are. And their incredibly powerful Thinkamancer allies. And if they happened to go looking for her, to find out what she knows, maybe to find something they could use against Jillian, or to turn her against Charlie...

    It could be interesting, I'm thinking.

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     Post Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:27 pm 
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    Selexor wrote:
    I've theorized before that even if Charlie didn't tell anyone else about what he and Betsy did to Jillian's mind, there's still one person who might have figured it out - Jack. He knew Jillian better than anyone alive. He was her only friend at FAQ, he was in love with her, and as a Foolamancer, he's always had pretty amazingly good insight into the minds of others. If what Charlie and Betsy did truly altered Jillian's character, well... it's not unreasonable to assume that FAQ knew Charlie and Betsy were doing something in Jillian's head, even if they didn't know the details. I mean they had to have known on at least some level. And Jack's just clever enough to have his suspicions, I've always thought.

    The reason I bring that up in this thread is because Jack's now able to tell Parson everything he knows about Charlie, Jillian, FAQ, and everything in between. If Jack had even the slightest inkling that Jillian was once mind-raped by Charlie, it'd make perfect sense for him to mention it to Parson. And furthermore, if Betsy is still alive, she's almost certainly in the Magic Kingdom right now. Where Jack and Parson are. And their incredibly powerful Thinkamancer allies. And if they happened to go looking for her, to find out what she knows, maybe to find something they could use against Jillian, or to turn her against Charlie...

    It could be interesting, I'm thinking.


    I think he's been to separated from her to figure it out, if at some point in this book he can spend a bit of time with her, as friendly (parley?) units, he might notice it and put two and tow together.

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     Post Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:51 pm 
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    We don't know how much time passed between signing the Deal of a Lifetime and Stanley conquering FAQ, so that's up in the air. And I still think it's plausible. Jack knows Jillian really, really well, and has an incredibly deep understanding of how the mind works. He knows that Charlie and Betsy went into her head to fiddle around with things. He's an Eyemancer, so he has to have some inkling of what could be done to her in there. And thereafter, Jillian starts acting differently.
    Jack's a smart guy, and with the way his mind works and his love of riddles and teasing at meanings, he'd catch on quickly. And he cares about Jillian, knows about her ordeal with the Buds, and would be watching her closely. And he knows about the Deal and would be aware that Charlie was going into her head. And when you add it all up... if there's any unit in all of Erfworld who could possibly figure out what was done to Jillian, you have to admit - it's Jack.

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