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 Post Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:58 am 
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When reading about what each class of magic does, I REALLY get the impression that Dollamancy should switch places. The more I read, the more I think things should be this way.

Here is my case:

The only elemente influencing spookism is Motion, the element of change, all disciplines influenced by it change things a bit (have a look at the wiki) Changemancy changes the properties of objects and does finer work, but it doesn't seem to CREATE anything new.

Dollamancy creates items, accessories, devices, golems and other units. This sounds to me more like Stuffmancy than Spookism. Stuffmancy is only incluenced by matter. The wiki says it alters the reality of a thing.

I don't know if I'm expressing myself correctly, but it just seems to me that Changemancy should be Spookism and Dollamancy should be Stuffmancy. This seems like another awesome opportunity for Retconjuration.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:58 pm 
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    Or to look at the same question a different way: both Dollamancy and Changeamancy are fate magic. Dollamancy is the intersection of fate with Motion, and Changeamancy with matter.

    Does the fact that these work the way they do - which seems slightly counter-intuitive, I agree - tell us anything interesting about the nature of Fate?
    The Fate axis in general is quite interesting...

    FATE + LIFE = Predictamancy.
    -> Does this tell us that only living things have an intrinsic fate? That the effects caused by non-living things are hard to Predict? Have we seen any Predictions around objects or golems?

    FATE + MOTION = Dollamancy
    -> What we have seen of Dollamancy is making inanimate objects do something - whether that's moving, in the battle-bears, or blasting as in the blaster. Is the nature of Dollamancy to give a non-living object function and the ability to impact the world?

    FATE + MATTER = Changeamancy
    -> MATTER + Erf is dirtamancy, and affects the structure of the world directly. Golems are an interesting example of the flexibility of this, though. I wonder if the difference between a Golem and a Doll is the amount of the caster's attention needed to make them do something. Sizemore's golems don't seem to act beyond his direct control often, while if I recall correctly, the Transilvito Dolls seem to have a fair amount of autonomy.
    -> MATTER + Numbers is dittomancy. The effects we've seen fits with MATTER being about the substance of the object.
    -> Does this imply that Changemancy could alter the narrative role of substance? Mud to gold, stone to water, that kind of thing? Interesting to see what effects Changemancers can perform, that might tell us something about what a object/person's Fate is.

    FATE + (LIFE & MOTION) = Thinkamancy
    -> We've seen quite a lot of what this can do, but it's difficult to see it as an influence on how fate affects life and motion.
    -> You could argue that thought itself is life given motion - thought is the manner in which life is alive. This would not be inconsistent with lookamancy, which studies the way in which individual decisions are expressed upon the Erf, and with Foolamancy, which affects the way in which thoughts perceive the numbers that describe the reality of Erf.
    -> If thoughts are life in motion, then thinkamancy would be the ability to change their direction (i.e. communication) and potentially to anticipate it. Fits more or less with what we've seen, but not sure how it relates to G-Strings.

    FATE + (LIFE & MATTER) = Signamancy
    -> What is LIFE&MATTER? LIFE & MATTER + Erf is Flower Power. With Numbers it's Datamancy.
    -> If the combination of Life and Matter is the realm of passion and relationships, this would explain Olive's ability to end combat - removing the desire to cause harm from the Erf - or Duncan's ability to identify good matchups by seeing the underlying numbers.
    -> Which would leave Signamancy as the ability to change the nature of relationships. We've not seen much signamancy, but this fits well with its use in contracts.

    FATE + (MOTION & MATTER) = Croakamancy.
    -> MOTION & MATTER + Erf = Shockamancy. What does this say about MOTION & MATTER? Erf axis seems to be about applying effects directly to the world, which fits here. Does that suggest that the combination of Motion and matter is the body? Have we ever seen shockamancy work on inanimate objects? Is the breath of a purple dwagon natural shockamancy, or something else?
    -> MOTION & MATTER + Numbers = Retromancy. Supports the theory that the Numbers axis is the fundamental underpinnings of how the Erf works. If Motion & Matter together is the body, Then retromancy would be changing how the body itself works, which seems appropriate (for a loose enough definition of body).
    -> Hence MOTION & MATTER + Fate is changing the narrative role of the body, which seems a reasonable fit for croakamancy.

    FATE + (LIFE & MOTION & MATTER) = Carnymancy
    -> The fact that carnymancy is aligned with Fate at all is interesting.
    -> LIFE & MOTION & MATTER + Erf is hat magic. + Numbers is Rhyme-o-mancy. I find it difficult to extrapolate from either.
    -> About the only thing I can say about all these disciplines is that they are all very wide-ranging in effect.

    FATE + (none) = Healomancy
    -> Erf + (NONE) = Luckamancy. Isn't that interesting? I would have assumed that luck would be aligned with the Fate axis, not the Erf one. Is lucky a property of things-as-they-are?
    -> Numbers + (NONE) = Moneymancy. I don't know it this is interesting or not. Does it say that money is an abstract system, unbound to the nature of the Erf, or that money is the most fundamental expression of the Erf? Is upkeep an abstract system, or one all the others are built around?
    -> Why would the raw Fate axis be Healomancy? Because the most basic expression of twisting fate is keeping a piece in the game one turn longer? If Healomancy is the raw manipulation of a unit's fate, then firstly that makes Charlie's healing of Jillian very interesting, and possibly slightly more coherent. And secondly, it makes me very scared about what a master-class healomancer could do.

    This has turned into a bit of an essay, probably repeating things any number of people have said before. And probably all sorts of off-topic too - but it's been fun. Metaphysical speculation in the context of a world so different to ours - awesome. Thanks for making that possible, Rob.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:01 pm 
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    Or parson is right, and the magic system is no more accurate than some alchemy texts were about the four elements.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:15 pm 
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    You've got your facts wrong. The wiki is unreliable.

    There was a recent retconjuration on the subject of Changemancy.

    http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... anding.jpg

    So there you go. Changemancy can summon things into existence entirely. Dollamancy, as far as we've seen, cannot do that. Dollamancer need to make items and golems physically out of raw materials using patterns. So whereas Changemancers manipulate stuff directly, Dollamancers lend it motion. Seems right to me.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:19 pm 
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    Lipkin wrote:
    You've got your facts wrong. The wiki is unreliable.

    There was a recent retconjuration on the subject of Changemancy.

    http://www.erfworld.com/summer-update-2 ... anding.jpg

    So there you go. Changemancy can summon things into existence entirely. Dollamancy, as far as we've seen, cannot do that. Dollamancer need to make items and golems physically out of raw materials using patterns. So whereas Changemancers manipulate stuff directly, Dollamancers lend it motion. Seems right to me.


    Interesting, thanks for clearing that up. Our information seems very imperfect at times.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:26 pm 
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    Shai_hulud wrote:
    Or parson is right, and the magic system is no more accurate than some alchemy texts were about the four elements.
    That seems very plausible, but not important. There's always the possibility that the table of magic was handed down by the Titans to the original casters or that the Titans pre-program it into every newly popped caster's head; in which case it would surely be exactly accurate, but we've seen no indication of that. Instead, we've seen that Erfworlders don't have much use for science. Headmaster Isaac seems to be trying, but he's struggling to accomplish anything in B2T40, and is he even really doing science or just fumbling around in a pre-scientific way?

    "He suspected it might be a law of Erfworld, but there was not enough evidence. He dropped at once to the ground and sat on dry grass, cross-legged. For a number of minutes, he simply sat there beside a springmount and tried to work out how he could prove (or more likely disprove) such a thing. It was a hard problem. Reliable facts were so difficult to come by!"

    This is not a good sign for science in Erfworld. It sounds like he is hoping to find evidence to support his theory and bemoans the lack of evidence. On the other hand, actual science is in the the business of creating evidence through repeatable experiments and never tries to prove anything; technically science only ever tries to disprove things. Never go looking for evidence to support theories because no one is immune to confirmation bias. Instead, think about how your theory might be falsifiable and do that experiment. The scientist protects himself from false theories first, and hopes that all that remains is true theories. That doesn't sound like Isaac's way of thinking.

    If Erfworld has no science then without the help of the Titans Erfworlders are probably deeply wrong about many things, and the table of magic could easily be very inaccurate in many ways. Even so, the accuracy of the table isn't important because it can still tell us a lot about how Erfworlders think about magic. The casters of each discipline of magic understand that discipline far better than we ever will and apparently they have all looked at that table and agreed that it is correct, or at least the table represents a popular consensus since Sizemore thought it was worth showing to Parson. That means that even if the underlying reality is far different from what the table shows, the table still represents how Erfworlders understand magic and since they're the ones doing magic every day, their understanding of magic is worth thinking about.

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     Post Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:44 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Shai_hulud wrote:
    Or parson is right, and the magic system is no more accurate than some alchemy texts were about the four elements.
    That seems very plausible, but not important.


    Given how Parson has shown that "common knowledge" is wrong multiple times I would go so far as to call it probable. Who knows exactly where the boundaries of each class of magic are when no one is willing to push them?

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:15 am 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    Shai_hulud wrote:
    Or parson is right, and the magic system is no more accurate than some alchemy texts were about the four elements.
    That seems very plausible, but not important.
    It matters if the chart can make useful predictions about what a magic type can do. For instance the theory that Flaking Out and Time Out were Hippiemancy, but not just applications of Life and Matter, but rather some sort of anti Turnamancy/time magic. If true then it would logically follow that other magics produce related effects. Wanda for instance being called a passionate lady multiple times by the author and being closely associated with events that have cloudy futures.

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