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 Post subject: Re: Grand Strategy
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:19 am 
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If I had to guess, I'd guess it's like uncroaking - I would guess that Lloyd can either spend his juice to mass-duplicate a bunch of infantry, or spend his juice to duplicate one high-level guy. Duplicating the king (plus his magic items, I think?) could certainly be a high-juice project.

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     Post subject: Re: Grand Strategy
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:14 am 
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    Yeah, he quadrupled arrows earlier in the turn, plus who knows what else he might have spent juice on as part of normal duties. I'd bet he's the one responsible for most of the Tower charges, because everyone else is needed on a regular basis for other things. Then add on top of that the immense Juice cost duplicating a Ruler unit with a bunch of magical gear...yeah it's not at all surprising this was all he could muster, because really it's quite a lot.

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     Post subject: Re: Grand Strategy
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:40 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    Yeah, he quadrupled arrows earlier in the turn, plus who knows what else he might have spent juice on as part of normal duties. I'd bet he's the one responsible for most of the Tower charges, because everyone else is needed on a regular basis for other things. Then add on top of that the immense Juice cost duplicating a Ruler unit with a bunch of magical gear...yeah it's not at all surprising this was all he could muster, because really it's quite a lot.

    Juice, like nearly everything else, almost certainly is restored at the start of the turn. Nor would he waste juice to charge the tower. IIRC, the casters were told to hold their juice in reserve. Tower->scrolls->their juice. He may have spent some juice doubling bonuses, but that's it. I suppose its possible that Kingworld prevents juice regeneration, but...
    ftl wrote:
    If I had to guess, I'd guess it's like uncroaking - I would guess that Lloyd can either spend his juice to mass-duplicate a bunch of infantry, or spend his juice to duplicate one high-level guy.
    Low level. Slately was low level.

    That said, its possible, probable, that the items also took up a big chunk of juice. However that sort of puts a damper on the plan to duplicate items.

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     Post subject: Re: Grand Strategy
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:00 am 
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    In this particular case, I think the unit TYPE would actually be more important than the level. He was trying to duplicate a unit of which there should only ever be one at a time and is gifted with extensive Natural Thinkamancy. That's a complex task, as supported by the timing.
    We know Juice is an abstract representation of effort as well as time. Given that, consider that he quadrupled arrows in the blink of an eye, yet it took him a few pages to duplicate the King. That suggests it's a lot more complicated, understandably so.
    As for Juice replenishing, we know for sure that comes at start of turn, via Wanda's 2nd turn alive. What we don't know is whether Kingworld counted as a turn beginning, since we don't know mechanically what exactly the spell did. It probably did count and replenished them...but as I said above, it's definitely plausible that duplicating a Ruler is a full-juice task.

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     Post subject: Re: Grand Strategy
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:51 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    In this particular case, I think the unit TYPE would actually be more important than the level. He was trying to duplicate a unit of which there should only ever be one at a time and is gifted with extensive Natural Thinkamancy. That's a complex task, as supported by the timing.

    That would make sense.
    0beron wrote:
    What we don't know is whether Kingworld counted as a turn beginning, since we don't know mechanically what exactly the spell did.
    My pet theory is it doesn't replenish juice. It would prevent a sufficiently large number of link ups from chaining Kingworlds.

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     Post subject: Re: Grand Strategy
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:57 am 
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    That's very true, however there are many other ways the spell could have worked that make chaining it not as OP as it sounds. Carnymancy (which I suspect was involved) deals in trades, so it's posisble the spell didn't actually skip/end GK's turn, but rather just made the 2 swap places in the turn order. Or maybe Jetstone will have no turn at all the next day. It's possibilities like this that make it hard to gauge all the effects without knowing the mechanical function of the spell.

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     Post subject: Re: Grand Strategy
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:15 am 
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    The more balancing mechanisms the better. :)

    So summary of my position: The dittomancer may have eaten up large amounts of juice with the Ruler flag, arrow quading, and bonus doubling. This left him with only a little juice for the items and nothing for extra help. Had he not used it he may have been able to add a decent number of troops and magic items making him an effective harasser, and item supporter.

    Alternatively the warlord flag, and the magic items may have eaten up the juice, making him far more limited in his ability to harass GK and provide item support.

    Regardless due to the ability to spend living units followed by decryption and my doubt one caster overpower GK, plus GKs new item support I strongly suspect this won't come close to cutting it. Jetstone needs other clever tactics. I suspect that they really don't have any good options and there best hope is someone else fixes it.

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     Post subject: Re: Grand Strategy
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:35 pm 
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    Maybe at some time in the past, Charlescomm or Faq skipped a turn and Kingworld gave that saved-up turn to Faq (and allies). Maybe they even saved that turn up recently - Jillian knew the plan, after all.

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     Post subject: Re: Grand Strategy
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:26 pm 
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    Lamech wrote:
    Juice, like nearly everything else, almost certainly is restored at the start of the turn.


    I'm not so convinced. We know that Bunny spends the last of her juice at night to talk with Caesar. Uncertain if this would be allowed if there was a period between the start of the day and the start of their turn where she would have no juice to use for comms.

    drachefly wrote:
    Maybe at some time in the past, Charlescomm or Faq skipped a turn and Kingworld gave that saved-up turn to Faq (and allies). Maybe they even saved that turn up recently - Jillian knew the plan, after all.


    If that was the case, then I would have expected GK to have gotten their turn back after FAQ et al ended theirs. Didn't happen. This was an ending of GK's turn, not a bonus turn for the RCC2.

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     Post subject: Re: Grand Strategy
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:18 pm 
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    They paid a cost in juice, and a lot too. Assuming some other magic wasn't included (until evidence presents itself) why does there have to be more to it than that? If juice isn't used for paying the cost, then what is the point of casters having it or keeping track of it at all?

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     Post subject: Re: Grand Strategy
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 7:12 pm 
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    wih wrote:
    I'm not so convinced [that Juice replenishes at start of turn].
    Awww cummon, I already mentioned this once, are you really gonna make me go dig up the actual citations? *pouty face*
    Here was a complicated bit of Matter. Once it had possessed Life and Motion, but those had been taken away from it. And though only the Titans could restore Life to it, she could give it Motion again, once she had the juice. That would happen at start of her turn.

    She’d awakened when the bugle called start of day, but drifted back into a catnap. Nothing had changed; the turn had not started and she had no juice yet.

    Wanda clearly explains that Juice is replenished at the Start of Turn. As for Bunny, recall that Casters have great freedom in how their Juice is spent, and also consider that Transylvito has a very early natural turn order, so being caught at dawn without Juice is rarely a problem for them.

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     Post subject: Re: Grand Strategy
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:11 pm 
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    On a somewhat unrelated note, do we know the levels of the various kings? Like Slately? On one hand, he's the ruler and he's been ruling for a while, on the other hand "ruling" doesn't involve personally croaking enemy units. I looked at the wiki and couldn't find a level for him. Can non-combat units level from doing the non-combat things they do?

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     Post subject: Re: Grand Strategy
     Post Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:26 pm 
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    We know actual levels for very few units. However it is stated by Slately that he had only ever "participated" in combat once...from the top of a very well defended parapet. I do not recall if this was in his entire life, or only since becoming King. Croaking units (or presumably assisting in such acts such as providing your bonus to the unit doing the croaking) is the only stated way of gaining XP, aside from Casters spending juice. So I think we can assume XP is not granted just for doing Ruler things, though you are correct we have never been told if this is an accurate assumption.

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     Post subject: Re: Grand Strategy
     Post Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:30 am 
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    Artemis trained to level, however that takes much, much longer time then fighting.

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     Post subject: Re: Grand Strategy
     Post Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:43 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    <snip>
    Wanda clearly explains that Juice is replenished at the Start of Turn. As for Bunny, recall that Casters have great freedom in how their Juice is spent, and also consider that Transylvito has a very early natural turn order, so being caught at dawn without Juice is rarely a problem for them.


    Point taken. Early turn order does make sense.

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     Post subject: Re: Grand Strategy
     Post Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:02 am 
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    mortissimus wrote:
    Artemis trained to level, however that takes much, much longer time then fighting.
    Ah yes I had forgotten about that, so there is a 3rd way. I think we can definitely assume Slately didn't do that because he does not seem his style or Signamancy at all, and I do recall others expressing amazement that Artemis had trained that much, so it would seem her drive/motivation factor is higher than most other units.

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     Post subject: Re: Grand Strategy
     Post Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:07 am 
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    I think WoT is that using your abilities can level you too. But I don't think rulers have much in the way of abilities that can help. So a twoll might level by hammering out items, a warlord might level by managing, or a scout might level by sneaking.

    Even so Slately has got to be a low level.
    0beron wrote:
    Ah yes I had forgotten about that, so there is a 3rd way. I think we can definitely assume Slately didn't do that because he does not seem his style or Signamancy at all, and I do recall others expressing amazement that Artemis had trained that much, so it would seem her drive/motivation factor is higher than most other units.
    Artemis trained for the equivalent of a two year degree. Think of that.

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     Post subject: Re: Grand Strategy
     Post Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:12 am 
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    Lamech wrote:
    Artemis trained for the equivalent of a two year degree. Think of that.
    Wow...Erflings are lazy! (Well...also very short-lived...but still, they think her training was a lot!?)

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     Post subject: Re: Grand Strategy
     Post Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:41 am 
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    It feels good to know I'm lazy...

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     Post subject: Re: Grand Strategy
     Post Posted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:45 am 
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    I'm waiting for someone to just rant at them. An Earthworlder obviously. Erfworld is a world where cities provide magical support. You live forever. Are healed at the start of every day. You can get strong and intelligent by doing push ups. Gain higher classes. Farming is totally a thing people can do to survive. And they have magic to help out. There is no excuse for this war. Erfworld is a bloody paradise compared to Earth. Its the people that make it warlike. Not the world.

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