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 Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:39 pm 
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Out of all the caster disciplines, Findamancy is arguably the most mysterious at this point. We have yet to meet a named Findamancer, something that is only shared with two other caster discipline, Weirdomancy and Changemancy (EDIT:We know of one named Findamancer, Spenser who use to work for Unaroyal, but we've never met him or learned anything about him besides his name). Yet we have learned a good amount about Weirdomancy: we have had Parson Klogs about it, and characters have referred to what it can do. We know that Weirdomancy's central "thing" is that it can modify existing spells and specials. We know it can temporarily grant and remove specials, we know that Charlie used one to create the scroll that will send Parson home, we even know that a Weirdomancer can make Gumps sprout royal radishes (something you'd think a Signmancer would do, but hey, what do I know). We also know, based on DigDoug's inner monologue while fixing the water spigot, that Changemancers can change out one physical item for another, and we know from Parson, Sizemore, and Maggie's picnic that Changemancers can make magic items (something we've only seen Dollamancers do, but hey, again, what do I know).

In comparison, what do we know about Findamancy?

We know that a Findamancer linked with a Predictomancer helped create the Summon Perfect Warlord scroll.

We know that Wanda used a Findamancy scroll to acquire the Arkenshoes that were hidden in Haffaton's capitol.

That's it. We don't know any Findamancers, nobody has talked about any Findamancers, and we don't even know what Findamancer's central "thing" is, besides, apparently, finding. (By "thing" I mean how Carnymancy's "thing" is breaking the rules, and Mathamancy's "thing" is calculating probabilities).

So what can Findamancer's do? I would imagine they could find enemy units; except that's something Lookamancer does. Lookamancers can see distant hexes: they are the ultimate scouting units. So it seems likely to me that Findamancy is about something fundamentally different than merely locating things; otherwise they're basically just another Lookamancer. Presumably a Findamancer could find some very useful things, such as unclaimed city or capital sites, or barbarian casters, but that seems like an ability that isn't always useful. A Dirtamancer or Dollmancer can make golems on turns where their juice isn't needed for anything else; what do you do with your Findamancers when you don't need anything found? And how often do you really need something found anyway. I feel like there has to be something more; and with so little to go off of there probably is.

My proposal: Findamancer's are summoners.

We know that a Findamancer and a Predictimancer created the Summon Perfect Warlord spell. The Predictamancer's role is obvious: whoever is summoned has to be perfect, that is, their fate has to be such that they will accomplish the role for which they were summoned (the current prevailing theory being that Parson was summoned with a Prediction to defeat Charlie). But we know a lot about Predictimancy, and nothing so far has indicated that Predictimancers can summon people or objects from far away. Yet that is exactly what the spell did: it physically summoned a person not only from far away, but from another world entirely. So it seems that for the spell to have worked (and we know it did) then Findamancy must not only be capable of finding the right person, but of summoning them as well.

If this is true, then I can see the fundamental utility of Findamancy. If you had a findamancer you could use him to summon units to you from all over your empire; or summon items.

However there are some flaws to my theory. Firstly, summoning has so far only been the domain of Hat Magicians: if Findamancers could summon things without a Hat you think we would have heard about it by now, at least because they would be used more often for moving gems or the like. Secondly, Findamancers are Hokey Pokey's, along with Predictamancers and Mathamancers. We've seen a few Mathamancers, and we've learned a great deal about Predictamancy, and yet we have seen no sign that either Predictamancers or Mathamancers ever think about summoning anything: surely a master of Predictamancy would at least know a little Findamancy. Yet we have never seen a Predictamancer or Mathamancer use Findamancy at all; and if Findamancy summoned people or objects then why haven't we seen anyone do that?

Still the question remains: how did Parson actually get summoned? Somebody in that link had to have the power to summon Parson from Stupidworld, and we know it wasn't the Predictamancer because we have never seen any indication that Predictamancers can do any such thing. So that leaves the Findamancers to do the heavy lifting of lifting our heavy hero to Erfworld.

Now the Findamancer's connection to Life magic, and their proximity to Predictamancy, leads me to speculate that they may be able to do at least one other thing: make arrows that always "find" their target, or cast on archer units to make their shots "find" their mark. That would be pretty cool, not game breaking, and would give them some utility in combat. Still, it's just speculation.

What do you think Findamancy might be able to do?


Last edited by MrH on Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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     Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:51 pm 
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    If they can summon things, then a good thing for them to do on a turn where their other talents aren't needed would be to summon wild animals. They could either summon ferals to be tamed, or creatures to harvest as rations. They would be like foragers that don't even need to go out into the field.

    Also, we do know of at least one Findamancer in the Erf universe. Spencer, the former Findamancer of Unaroyal.

    Edit: Also, your avatar is perfect for this thread. :lol:

    Edit 2: Another thing a Findamancer may be able to do is keep things hidden.

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     Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:58 pm 
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    cloudbreaker wrote:
    If they can summon things, then a good thing for them to do on a turn where their other talents aren't needed would be to summon wild animals. They could either summon ferals to be tamed, or creatures to harvest as rations. They would be like foragers that don't even need to go out into the field.

    Also, we do know of at least one Findamancer in the Erf universe. Spencer, the former Findamancer of Unaroyal.

    Edit: Also, your avatar is perfect for this thread. :lol:

    Edit 2: Another thing a Findamancer may be able to do is keep things hidden.


    Thanks for the tip about Spencer, I totally forgot about him: I have edited the original post to include him. Still, we only know his name: we have never met him or any other Findamancer, so they're kind of a black box.

    And yeah, if they can summon stuff then summoning ferals to tame or harvest would be very useful. I'm not sure about keeping things hidden though: that seems more like Foolamancy or Signamancy to me (though it does make me wonder: could a Findmancer have found the Arkenpliers while they were in the Stash?).

    And yeah, I picked out the avatar because this was my first thread and, well, seemed appropriate. :-)

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     Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:03 pm 
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    MrH wrote:
    We have yet to meet a named Findamancer, something that is only shared with two other caster discipline, Weirdomancy and Changemancy (EDIT:We know of one named Findamancer, Spenser who use to work for Unaroyal, but we've never met him or learned anything about him besides his name).


    Not really relevant to the rest, but we also know of a Changemancer for Unaroyal, Bowie.

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     Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:09 pm 
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    Yeah, Foolamany and probably Signamancy are good at hiding things, but Findamancy could be good too. Foolamancy would be making a fancy box look like a brick so that it is overlooked. Signamancy would be making a fancy box look like a boring box that is not worth opening. Findamancy would be hiding a fancy box in a hole under the floorboards so that nobody knows it is there in the first place.

    Another possible use for Findamancy could be to Find holes in a plan. They could be really good at identifying things that could potentially go wrong. That would fit well with the Predictamancy and Mathanmancy disciplines, and would give them another good use for a side's daily war-planning needs.

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     Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:35 pm 
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    cloudbreaker wrote:
    Another possible use for Findamancy could be to Find holes in a plan. They could be really good at identifying things that could potentially go wrong. That would fit well with the Predictamancy and Mathanmancy disciplines, and would give them another good use for a side's daily war-planning needs.
    If we go down that particular semantic rabbit hole, then Findamancy can simply find the answer to any particular problem or question.

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     Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:05 pm 
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    Lord Dominator wrote:
    cloudbreaker wrote:
    Another possible use for Findamancy could be to Find holes in a plan. They could be really good at identifying things that could potentially go wrong. That would fit well with the Predictamancy and Mathanmancy disciplines, and would give them another good use for a side's daily war-planning needs.
    If we go down that particular semantic rabbit hole, then Findamancy can simply find the answer to any particular problem or question.


    Yeah that does seem a bit vague and/or overpowered. "Find me a way to kill their Ruler without losing any soldiers, and at the cost of 500 Shmuckers!"

    On the other hand, based on the Summon Perfect Warlord spell I wouldn't be surprised if a Findamancer could find the right person to solve your problem, or at least help. Maybe a Findamancer could help you find the right warlord to promote to Chief, or find a caster who would be willing to work for you from the magic kingdom. That could be useful: you could Find the best units to promote to knights or warlords, or find the right allies you could make an alliance with. On the other hand, that sounds a lot like Date-a-Mancy.

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     Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:53 pm 
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    I've given a lot of thought to findamancy, and even wrote an entire erf fic that is largely findmancy speculation.

    My theory is that Hocus Pocus is the magic of order. It applies logic to reality, revealing a pattern in chaos, and rearranges the world into a more elegant and purposeful form.

    Predictmanacy reveals a logical plan for the world, and even influences people into carrying out that plan. Mathamancy breaks everything down into sensible numbers. Findamancy reverses entropy by uniting things that belong together.

    In its most basic application, findamancy could tell you where something is. Like where the enemy is hiding a stack of troops, which mountain hex has gems to mine, where there's a lightly defended enemy city you could raze. It has some overlap with lookamancy when it comes to scouting and intel, but there's a key difference. With lookamancy, you pick where to look, or what to look at, and maybe get the information you need. Findamancy removes the guesswork. It finds what you need to find, not what you think you need to see.

    And beyond simply knowing where something is, or where you need to be, findamancy could guide you there. The same way predictamancy reveals your destination, findamancy helps you find the road.

    However findamancy does more than provide mere information. It can also physically affect the world to reunite that which belongs together. At its maximum power, it can summon units, simply willing them to be here where they belong, rather than there where they do not belong. On a lesser scale, I suspect it could also be used to move physical objects without teleportation. Help an arrow strike its target without fail. Guide a sword to a weak spot in the enemy armor. Yank an enemy closer ("finish him!").

    Basically, findamancy brings you to something, or brings something to you, through both informational guidance and direct physical manipulation. There's a lot of applications to that. Now imagine if a findamancer also has a grasp on predictamancy or mathamancy. There is endless potential in spells that can predict ideal futures, and guide you there through the most mathematically optimal methods.

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     Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 10:36 pm 
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    MrH wrote:
    Lord Dominator wrote:
    cloudbreaker wrote:
    Another possible use for Findamancy could be to Find holes in a plan. They could be really good at identifying things that could potentially go wrong. That would fit well with the Predictamancy and Mathanmancy disciplines, and would give them another good use for a side's daily war-planning needs.
    If we go down that particular semantic rabbit hole, then Findamancy can simply find the answer to any particular problem or question.


    Yeah that does seem a bit vague and/or overpowered. "Find me a way to kill their Ruler without losing any soldiers, and at the cost of 500 Shmuckers!"

    I was thinking more along the lines of someone telling a Findamancer, "Here is our plan to kill their Ruler without losing any soldiers, and at the cost of 500 Shmuckers!" Then the Findamancer says, "I Found some holes in your plan. It will cost you more than 500 shmuckers, you will lose two thirds of your soldiers, and it will probably not croak their ruler."

    Or a better example:
    Warlord: "Our plan is to shoot the megalogwiff with arrows until it croaks, and then capture Queen Jillian when it falls."
    Findamancer: "I Found a hole in your plan. The fall could croak Queen Jillian, and the megalogwiff is likely to land on top of your own archers."

    I admit that "Finding holes in plans" is probably not one of their main powers though. Even so, I hardly think it would make Findamancers overpowered compared to what some other magic disciplines are capable of.

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     Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:38 pm 
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    I'm going to tip my hat on thoughts for a moment.

    All magic is just that, magic. The thinkamancers are right about that it's not "Just" some game abstraction, it's actual mysticism.

    The reason casters don't rule sides often and can do magic stems from a single thing, Caster sense. The broken way they perceive the world. The problem is they never experience life without it and so are arguably even more trapped in their boxes than non-casters even if they do see more.
    Eyeamancy the whole thing is about thought so of course they percieve thought as the central piece of the puzzle.
    Now let's look at naughtymancy it's not just blow stuff up, bring stuff back, and stuff you can't do(retconjuration), look at how shockamancy attacks are compared to the hoboken or the shockamancy stun, it's actually Violate your sense of what's acceptable. That's why it's naughty.

    So the big answer to "What is findamancy" is to look at what it's paired with(what a findamancer can accept into their worldview.) and that's predictamancy and mathamancy. So what do those two have in common? They believe in a bigger picture and higher power. Whether that's fate or math isn't the point, and that's why it's "Hocus Pocus".

    So as far as what it does, Omnimancer probably has a good grasp on it, findamancer will find what you need to find and get where you need to go, but it's practitioners are probably classical fools trusting their magic to know what that is.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:17 am 
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    I was hoping that Finders did dowsing. So we could call a user of Findamancy (divine locations) and Predictamancy (devine the future) a diviner. Because lawl.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:45 am 
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    cloudbreaker wrote:
    I was thinking more along the lines of someone telling a Findamancer, "Here is our plan to kill their Ruler without losing any soldiers, and at the cost of 500 Shmuckers!" Then the Findamancer says, "I Found some holes in your plan. It will cost you more than 500 shmuckers, you will lose two thirds of your soldiers, and it will probably not croak their ruler."

    Or a better example:
    Warlord: "Our plan is to shoot the megalogwiff with arrows until it croaks, and then capture Queen Jillian when it falls."
    Findamancer: "I Found a hole in your plan. The fall could croak Queen Jillian, and the megalogwiff is likely to land on top of your own archers."

    I admit that "Finding holes in plans" is probably not one of their main powers though. Even so, I hardly think it would make Findamancers overpowered compared to what some other magic disciplines are capable of.


    I don't know if findamancers can find something as abstract as a plan or a hole in one. Who knows, maybe they can.

    Finding the weak points in plans definitely would fall under mathamancy though. They wouldn't just tell you if something is a good plan or a bad plan, they could give you the precise probability of several options.

    Warlord: Mathamancer, analyze this plan. Shoot the megalogwiff with arrows until it croaks, and then capture Queen Jillian when it falls.
    Mathamancer: Plan has A% chance of success. Assuming we successfully croak the megalo, there is a B% chance that Jillian will be croaked in the fall, and a C% chance that she will be incapacitated and need magical healing to avoid croaking. There is a D% chance that Jillian's forces will rescue her in midair. Might I suggest trying to capture her in midair rather than waiting for her megalo to land. It'll improve the mission's overall chance at success by E%, although our casualties will likely increase by F%. It is remote possibility, but there is also an G% chance that Jillian's forces will defeat ours and force us to retreat from the hex before we can attempt a capture. There is also a small but significant H% chance that the falling megalo might land on our own archers. I will calculate archery formations that will reduce this chance to less than I%, without significantly impacting overall success odds.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:03 am 
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    Shai hulud wrote:
    I was hoping that Finders did dowsing. So we could call a user of Findamancy (divine locations) and Predictamancy (devine the future) a diviner. Because lawl.

    Dowsing: you mean like the dowsing machine in pokemon, which is better known as the item finder!
    Woomod wrote:
    I'm going to tip my hat on thoughts for a moment.

    All magic is just that, magic. The thinkamancers are right about that it's not "Just" some game abstraction, it's actual mysticism.

    The reason casters don't rule sides often and can do magic stems from a single thing, Caster sense. The broken way they perceive the world. The problem is they never experience life without it and so are arguably even more trapped in their boxes than non-casters even if they do see more.
    Eyeamancy the whole thing is about thought so of course they percieve thought as the central piece of the puzzle.
    Now let's look at naughtymancy it's not just blow stuff up, bring stuff back, and stuff you can't do(retconjuration), look at how shockamancy attacks are compared to the hoboken or the shockamancy stun, it's actually Violate your sense of what's acceptable. That's why it's naughty.

    Nah, what makes them naughty is that they all revolve around manipulating zeroes. The way binary works in computing is whether there is an electrical charge or not, with 1's being yeses and zeroes being noes. Shockamancy in it's agression form assaults the target with 1's, which is the absence of zero, and may bring a target's hitpoints to zero (or possibly bring them to life). Shockamancy in it's non-electric form may turn mouths to look like zeroes or turn the flesh around a man's lower beard into a giant 1.
    Croakamancy in it's most common usage is able to manipulate the bodies of units with zero hitpoints. An uncroaked unit behaves the same way as a croaked one in that they both decay over time. Uncroaking works by giving motion to units that have none, and a croakermancer may only detect a body that lacks hitpoints. I feel I am going on in circles. Speaking of circles, the number zero when written in hindu-arabic numerals looks like a circle!

    But back to the mancies. The third naughtymancy is deletionism. Deletionism is what completely removes objects from existance, and it's why both units that have no hitpoints (Both croaked AND incapacitated units) depop, along with units that can't meet their upkeep.
    MrH wrote:
    Out of all the caster disciplines, Findamancy is arguably the most mysterious at this point. We have yet to meet a named Findamancer, something that is only shared with two other caster discipline, Weirdomancy and Changemancy (EDIT:We know of one named Findamancer, Spenser who use to work for Unaroyal, but we've never met him or learned anything about him besides his name). Yet we have learned a good amount about Weirdomancy: we have had Parson Klogs about it, and characters have referred to what it can do. We know that Weirdomancy's central "thing" is that it can modify existing spells and specials. We know it can temporarily grant and remove specials, we know that Charlie used one to create the scroll that will send Parson home, we even know that a Weirdomancer can make Gumps sprout royal radishes (something you'd think a Signmancer would do, but hey, what do I know). We also know, based on DigDoug's inner monologue while fixing the water spigot, that Changemancers can change out one physical item for another, and we know from Parson, Sizemore, and Maggie's picnic that Changemancers can make magic items (something we've only seen Dollamancers do, but hey, again, what do I know).

    I signamancer would most certainly not be able to make a gump sprout radishes, that would be modiying the unit's abilities, and not it's appearences. Which is the domain of weirdomancy. It made the gump a radish-sprouting gump
    MrH wrote:
    cloudbreaker wrote:
    If they can summon things, then a good thing for them to do on a turn where their other talents aren't needed would be to summon wild animals. They could either summon ferals to be tamed, or creatures to harvest as rations. They would be like foragers that don't even need to go out into the field.

    Also, we do know of at least one Findamancer in the Erf universe. Spencer, the former Findamancer of Unaroyal.

    Edit: Also, your avatar is perfect for this thread. :lol:

    Edit 2: Another thing a Findamancer may be able to do is keep things hidden.


    Thanks for the tip about Spencer, I totally forgot about him: I have edited the original post to include him. Still, we only know his name: we have never met him or any other Findamancer, so they're kind of a black box.

    And yeah, if they can summon stuff then summoning ferals to tame or harvest would be very useful. I'm not sure about keeping things hidden though: that seems more like Foolamancy or Signamancy to me (though it does make me wonder: could a Findmancer have found the Arkenpliers while they were in the Stash?).

    And yeah, I picked out the avatar because this was my first thread and, well, seemed appropriate. :-)

    I doubt a findamancer would be able to keep an object hidden, as that's kind of the oppisite of what they do.

    Also on a tangent:
    Spoiler: show
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    I never got why Americans call him "Waldo", like, I get that it's Odlaw spelt backwards...

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:15 pm 
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    Anomynous 167 wrote:
    I signamancer would most certainly not be able to make a gump sprout radishes, that would be modiying the unit's abilities, and not it's appearences. Which is the domain of weirdomancy. It made the gump a radish-sprouting gump


    Well it depends: if the Gumps sprouting royal radishes gives them a new ability, say that the radishes can be used as forage, then yeah I'd say you'd need a Weirdomancer. But the point wasn't that they wanted more radishes, it was a silly warlord's idea to make the Gumps sprout Royal Radishes, as in the symbol of Jetstone. So in my mind I saw the intent as trying to change the Gump's Signamancy, that is, what they look like. But yeah, if you could actually forage the radishes I imagine that would be Weirdomancy.

    I think Omnimancer has the best theory on what Findamancer's "thing" is. I just hope we get to actually see or learn something about canon Findamancy: if it can summon people it would be pretty useful! And I for one would love to meet the Findamancer that was part of the linkup that made the Summon Perfect Warlord spell, since we've met the other two members of the link already.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:02 pm 
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    Oddly enough, there was no Findamancer involved in the Predictamancy/Findamancy spell that summoned Parson. It was a Lookamancer named Hubble.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:45 pm 
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    cloudbreaker wrote:
    Oddly enough, there was no Findamancer involved in the Predictamancy/Findamancy spell that summoned Parson. It was a Lookamancer named Hubble.


    That is....remarkable! On page 5 Wanda clearly states that "The Findamancers and Predictomancers forged a spell together." Then on page 17 when actually summoning Parson Wanda protests that "I am not a Findamancer!"

    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/5
    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/17

    So where does Hubble fit in? My first guess would be that he was the Thinkamancer in the link, and he just also happened to be a master Lookamancer, since they are both Eyemancy. But the appendix materials to the book "It's Raining Men" states clearly that Lady Tisha Necrosis was the Thinkamancer who formed the link that created the Summon Perfect Warlord scroll.

    So either Wanda was mistaken and Findamancy was not used, or this linkup used more than three casters. And if Findamancy wasn't used...then what in the world is Findamancy good for? What exactly does it do if not the one thing we thought we knew it did?

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:24 pm 
    Print Book 2 & Draw Book 3 Supporter Here for the 10th Anniversary Has collected at least one unit Erfworld Bicycle® Playing Cards supporter
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    MrH wrote:
    cloudbreaker wrote:
    Oddly enough, there was no Findamancer involved in the Predictamancy/Findamancy spell that summoned Parson. It was a Lookamancer named Hubble.


    That is....remarkable! On page 5 Wanda clearly states that "The Findamancers and Predictomancers forged a spell together." Then on page 17 when actually summoning Parson Wanda protests that "I am not a Findamancer!"

    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/5
    http://archives.erfworld.com/Book%201/17

    So where does Hubble fit in? My first guess would be that he was the Thinkamancer in the link, and he just also happened to be a master Lookamancer, since they are both Eyemancy. But the appendix materials to the book "It's Raining Men" states clearly that Lady Tisha Necrosis was the Thinkamancer who formed the link that created the Summon Perfect Warlord scroll.

    So either Wanda was mistaken and Findamancy was not used, or this linkup used more than three casters. And if Findamancy wasn't used...then what in the world is Findamancy good for? What exactly does it do if not the one thing we thought we knew it did?

    My head canon has always been that the spell itself is a booster allowing the caster to see everywhere and know fates. Thus the link would be look/predict. Then cast by a findamancer tasked with the actual summoning. Obviously not unquestionable, but it might help.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:28 pm 
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    ... Or the one time Hubble is referred to as a Lookamancer was a mistake.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:10 pm 
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    Well, let's not forget two things:

    One: Findamancy is an Erf-axis discipline. As in, the group of casters most likely to use 'brute force' methods as well as see combat. As such, it can be deduced (or induced? Not entirely sure on applicability of definition here...) that Findamancers have more martial aspects to their magic than, say, Predictamancers or Mathamancers. Mathamancers can calculate probabilities, Predictamancers can see the outcome of actions before they take them, but Findamancers might likely just hit whatever they shoot at unless something physically blocks their shot. Also, much of Findamantic casting may involve eliminating the middle steps to arrive at a conclusion. Much like a Predictamancer can't tell you how the Fate they predict will play out, a Findamancer may not be able to say how they arrive at the conclusions they do.

    Two: Their likely Signamancy. What Signamancy would be more appropriate for a Findamancer than that of a detective? They may not be getting rich in the MK, but other casters might hire them frequently for minor jobs. Such as 'where can I find work'? Or 'Dude, can you help me find my wand? I haven't seen it since that bender with the Hippiemancers last night.' Of course, the major downside would be their seemingly unerring ability to 'find' trouble. The upside would be their cultivated ability to find a way back out of it. At least those that survive their first few levels. And of course the famous detective 'gut instinct' would fit back in with Findamancers not necessarily knowing exactly how they arrive at their (correct) conclusions.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:30 pm 
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    http://nightside.wikia.com/wiki/John_Taylor

    I'll just leave this here.

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