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 Post subject: Charlie Booping up.
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:20 pm 
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Lets talk about Charlie's boop ups.

1st leting Parson know about his bracer.
2nd revealing he could read what was written on eyebooks. He could have just talked with parson using his Archon Thinkagrams. Now he knows nothing about what Stanley's up to thanks to that.
3rd Sending Parson's message for Ansom to meet him at the tower, specially since he knew Parson was up to something. That way Ansom died, all his bonuses were lost, wich could have allowed at least someone to survive the explosion perhaps. Also, if the sword wasn't enough, I think the death of Bogroll was a +50 ruthfulness bonus for Parson.
4th Not considering Parson would blow the mountain. Charlie realized the volcano was blowing up instants after the spell was cast, presumably his archons told him since they seem keen at detecting magic. He could have anticipated attacking a dead volcano on a world were volcanoes can be uncroaked could happen...

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     Post subject: Re: Charlie Booping up.
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:56 pm 
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    On the first, I my guess is that the fact that mathemancy can do 'sophisticated predictions about the future' is semi-public knowledge in Erfworld. Sizemore only gave a generic description of the school's functions, and from there Parson just assumed that because he was a strategist and it came in his perfect-warlord-meal the bracer's function was calculating battle outcomes, specifically. Charlie doesn't know that Parson is summoned from out-of-erfworld existence, which is the only reason why mostly public info is still occasionally invaluable to him. Boop-up? Yes, but not one based on poor judgement.

    On the second, I think this is part of the air of omnipotence Charlie likes to keep up as part of his diplomatic facade, the same thing that has him beam in 28 archons on a whim and spend calculations on little more than keeping the psychological/conversational upper hand. Its a sacrifice, yes, but one made with a purpose in mind that has value of its own.

    On the third, I wouldn't count that as a boop-up. The battle between Goblin Knob and the coalition was expected to be very one-sided, and up until that point every trick Parson pulled to even it out had only been profitable to Charlie. It didn't seem possible for GK to actually win (and to be fair, they didn't win because they croaked Ansom, either), so Charlie had every reason to slip Parson advantages when he could get away with it.

    Fourth is a failure of imagination, at worst. Presumably no volcano had ever been uncroaked in Erfworld history before, and figuring out how it happened after it did is a lot easier than seeing it coming. Considering he was the only one in Erfworld smart enough to do that, I don't think predicting it ahead of time was feasible.



    What I think Charlie's main boop-up was was to send out 28 archons on a well planned mission, and then letting Parson diplomancy him out of going through with it. Sure, he got paid good smackers selling their battle-services, but he lost the initiative of his own plans and his involvement after that never really required more than ten or so archons present, tops. When he got blindsided, this cost him far more than it needed to have.

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     Post subject: Re: Charlie Booping up.
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:04 pm 
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    Well, those were things that didn't work out so well for him, but whether they were mistakes given what he knew (or should have known) at the time is another question.

    In particular, helping Parson put one over on Ansom probably seemed like a very good idea at the time -- helping the apparent underdog stay in the fight keeps the fight going, which is generally lucrative for a mercenary.

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     Post subject: Re: Charlie Booping up.
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:57 pm 
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    We don't have any reason to believe that Charlie is one the side of Jetstone or unaroyal. Transylvito thinks Charlie is pro-royal but that could be because royals pay well. We know from the early episodes that Stanly won't do business with Charlie but if Ansom recovered and was leading Jetstone in war again he probably wouldn't call Charlie either.

    I think the key component of the "bracer" is the calculator Parson brought with him from Ohio. He just plugged the calculator into the bracer and then it could calculate erf-world results.

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     Post subject: Re: Charlie Booping up.
     Post Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:03 pm 
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    pSycHOtic chICkeN wrote:
    We don't have any reason to believe that Charlie is one the side of Jetstone or unaroyal. Transylvito thinks Charlie is pro-royal but that could be because royals pay well. We know from the early episodes that Stanly won't do business with Charlie but if Ansom recovered and was leading Jetstone in war again he probably wouldn't call Charlie either.

    Charlie seems to be coolly pragmatic about what "side" he's on at any given time. My guess is that Ansom was reluctant to deal with Charlie for two reasons:

    1. The obvious one that Charlie, while keeping to the letter of his agreements because it's good business, will ruthlessly put an employer over a barrel if he gets the chance and

    2. (reading between the lines) The less obvious one that Charlie's attunement to an Arkentool was an affront to (v1.0) Ansom's worldview (less so that Stanley was, because Charlie doesn't claim that attunement makes him special in the eyes of the Titans, but an affront just the same). At the very least, having Charlie on board diluted the ideological battle lines a bit.

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     Post subject: Re: Charlie Booping up.
     Post Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:59 am 
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    i doubt there was much idealogical there. update 40 mentions a sequence of events that i'm pretty sure ansom was trying to carry out on GK. capture the city and place himself on the throne then split from jetsone into a new royal power. ossomer mentions a similar turn of events in regards to haggar as a threat.

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     Post subject: Re: Charlie Booping up.
     Post Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:11 am 
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    For the most part, Charlie did not make mistakes and constantly improved his position throughout the conflict. Part of that was Parson willingly trading advantage to Charlie for advantage against the RCC (the more immediate threat) in a manner Stanley, Wanda, and Maggie seemed to think was reckless. Still, I'd peg his mistakes thusly:

    1) He had GK by the throat after teleporting in his Archon force. He should have forced Parson to turn or taken the city. Certain gain. Instead he let Parson play his part, and he only had a what, 60 % chance of surviving the next turn? And for what? I hypothetical shot at the Pliers? On the otherhand, this gambit works for him when Ansom resigns the terms agreement for enormous Charlie's enormous benefit.

    2) He let Ansome get croaked. The terms of the previous agreement were with Ansom and with him dead there was no certainty he'd get his big payout: either the Pliers, Parson, the Bracer, a big pile of Schmuckers or a combination there of. However, he might have been hoping to get to renegotiate terms on even more favorable terms. Which brings us to...

    3) He assumed Parson would be rational. It makes sense, how can such a clever warlord with no great loyalty to Stanley not be rational? But no, Parson put so much emphasis on victory, he refused to deal even when it could have saved his life. Instead, Parson puts into motion a spell to wipe out both sides and probably take his life as well. The fact that Parson survived is luck. The fact that GK benefited was extreme luck.

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     Post subject: Re: Charlie Booping up.
     Post Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:44 am 
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    parson had resigned but as the casters informed him, if you have one more idea, duty compels you to try it.he was ready to give it all up and fight to the death and send the casters back to the MK.

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     Post subject: Re: Charlie Booping up.
     Post Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:31 am 
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    Lord Kasavin wrote:
    For the most part, Charlie did not make mistakes and constantly improved his position throughout the conflict. Part of that was Parson willingly trading advantage to Charlie for advantage against the RCC (the more immediate threat) in a manner Stanley, Wanda, and Maggie seemed to think was reckless. Still, I'd peg his mistakes thusly:

    1) He had GK by the throat after teleporting in his Archon force. He should have forced Parson to turn or taken the city. Certain gain. Instead he let Parson play his part, and he only had a what, 60 % chance of surviving the next turn? And for what? I hypothetical shot at the Pliers? On the otherhand, this gambit works for him when Ansom resigns the terms agreement for enormous Charlie's enormous benefit.


    Charlie's analysis seems to have been: either Parson would win somehow (but weakened by his losses in the battle and thus easier pickings for Charlie to move in) or not (in which case Charlie would still collect on the original contract without having to actually risk any of his resources). That Parson would win and end up in a stronger position than he was initially was the result of circumstances Charlie couldn't reasonably have expected.

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    2) He let Ansom get croaked. The terms of the previous agreement were with Ansom and with him dead there was no certainty he'd get his big payout: either the Pliers, Parson, the Bracer, a big pile of Schmuckers or a combination there of.


    It not specifically stated whether the deal is with Ansom or with Jetstone (presuming that a heir has sufficient authority to commit the side in that manner). I'd expect that a mercenary would prefer to draw up contracts with a side rather than an individual leader for precisely that reason.

    Quote:
    3) He assumed Parson would be rational. It makes sense, how can such a clever warlord with no great loyalty to Stanley not be rational? But no, Parson put so much emphasis on victory, he refused to deal even when it could have saved his life. Instead, Parson puts into motion a spell to wipe out both sides and probably take his life as well. The fact that Parson survived is luck. The fact that GK benefited was extreme luck.


    Parson's final gambit seems to have been imposed on him by Duty -- recall that he tried to tell (but not actually order, because he couldn't) the casters to bug out through the portal. Thus, his action was rational in Erfworld terms.

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     Post subject: Re: Charlie Booping up.
     Post Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:06 pm 
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    It seems to me that Charlie's deals with Ansom are made between Charlescomm and the RCC.

    Parson's actions were rational... for a mind that contained the idea of an insane superweapon. (I always wondered, though, what he was going to order the casters to do before he decided to just "boop it" and send everyone to the portal.)

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     Post subject: Re: Charlie Booping up.
     Post Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:33 pm 
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    DevilDan wrote:
    (I always wondered, though, what he was going to order the casters to do before he decided to just "boop it" and send everyone to the portal.)

    I thought that was stated here -- he considered ordering Maggie to protect Sizemore and Wanda and take the brunt of the link breakage herself.

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     Post subject: Re: Charlie Booping up.
     Post Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:05 pm 
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    SteveMB wrote:
    DevilDan wrote:
    (I always wondered, though, what he was going to order the casters to do before he decided to just "boop it" and send everyone to the portal.)

    I thought that was stated here -- he considered ordering Maggie to protect Sizemore and Wanda and take the brunt of the link breakage herself.

    Huh. I never made the connection. I always thought that he was thinking of using the volcano in a more tactical manner.

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     Post subject: Re: Charlie Booping up.
     Post Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 2:51 pm 
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    Charles had nothing to do with Ansom getting killed. The contract did not include magical security so the Archons were under no obligation to inform Ansom that it was not Parson. I'm pretty sure Charles has trained his Archons not to provide services that are not specificly included in his contractual obligations. If Ansom had requested such services he wouldn't have gotten
    Charles did not help Ansom at the other time, because Ansom had switched the contract to Trans in order for Charles to assist in whacking Stanley before he used Faq to create a new side.
    Ansom had no contract with Charles then when he tried to breach Wanda's defenses and he was forced to make a new Deal which included a Parson must be turned over to Charles clause.
    Charles was not happy and I'm assuming the cost also went up.

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     Post subject: Re: Charlie Booping up.
     Post Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:47 pm 
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    I think Charlie's constant side-switching and attempts to savagely gain the advantage from enemies and allies alike will make him much less trustworthy for ALL sides in the future. On the good part, since GK exploded, probably few people knows about his role in the whole thing, except for what Jillian and Vinny can tell, and there's no serious harm done to his reputation :P

    Lucky for him :twisted: , Parson left no witnesses, and having his own archons decrypted would remove suspicions about Ansom's death and his deal for PArson's Calculations.

    Also, come to think of it, his deal to let Stanley escape in exchange for 12 calculations was a *minor* boop up on the long run. (because he was 99% sure he'd multiply his investment), but still he did work up with much lesser chances like the 2 in 3 chances of Parson' taking the arkanepliers.

    I think we know Chalie's weakness... for one so smart, he can't help his gambling :P

    The bracer must've been the ultimate temptation for Charlie, since calculating and knowing who wins and who looses (see all the speculation on the questions Parson will get to ask soon) would mean secure and regular profits for as long as he could sell his mercenary services. Still, the bracer didn't work well for him because, his archons were not enough, like the bracer predicted, since it couldn't tell the mountain was going to turn into mount doom under attack by the Death-Star. doesn't seem to me the bracer is so overpowered, since it can be easily misunderstood, a mistake I don't think Parson will be making. The bracer canot calculate the unpredictable.

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     Post subject: Re: Charlie Booping up.
     Post Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 4:46 pm 
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    Charlie made very reasonable gambles: but Parson, unfortunately, means that all bets are off.

    He shouldn't worry too much about being pegged as unreliable or untrustworthy... he behaved as any mercenary would and if the RCCII needs him then they'll pay and be glad of it.

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     Post subject: Re: Charlie Booping up.
     Post Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:40 pm 
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    DevilDan wrote:
    Charlie made very reasonable gambles: but Parson, unfortunately, means that all bets are off.

    He shouldn't worry too much about being pegged as unreliable or untrustworthy... he behaved as any mercenary would and if the RCCII needs him then they'll pay and be glad of it.


    There's even a decent chance that Charlie will offer his services at discounted rates, just so he can embed some units into the RCCII armies and get a better look at GK w/out immediately getting curb-stomped.

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     Post subject: Re: Charlie Booping up.
     Post Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:47 pm 
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    Hindsight is always 20/20.

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     Post subject: Re: Charlie Booping up.
     Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:57 am 
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    Roketter wrote:
    3rd Sending Parson's message for Ansom to meet him at the tower, specially since he knew Parson was up to something. That way Ansom died, all his bonuses were lost, wich could have allowed at least someone to survive the explosion perhaps. Also, if the sword wasn't enough, I think the death of Bogroll was a +50 ruthfulness bonus for Parson.

    That wasn't a mistake. It was always in Charlie's best interests that Ansom be killed at the hands of Gobwin Knob. One of his main goals in the whole war, remember, is that he wanted the Arkenpliers. It was impossible for him to get them from Jetstone, but getting them from Gobwin Knob might have been doable.

    Really, the best possible scenario for Charlescomm would have been a narrow defeat of the Coalition in the last battle, leaving Gobwin Knob with the Arkenpliers and like ten guys left in the garrison. Then Charlie could have sent a platoon of Archons down to mop the place up and get both the Arkenhammer and Arkenpliers for himself. If the Coalition wins, all he gets is his pay and whatever portion of the spoils he's entitled to. Seeing as how the Coalition was poised to effortlessly crush the garrison at the time, any loss of power for the Coalition could have potentially been a benefit for Charlie. He had no reason to care about the loss of any Coalition units that weren't Archons anyway, as long as he wasn't going to get blamed for it.

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     Post subject: Re: Charlie Booping up.
     Post Posted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:02 pm 
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    So what can we learn about Charlie's personalities from these boop-ups and other stuff? Let's make a list :)

    1. Charlie is having fun
    2. He's proud (I'm gonna go ahead attribute his eyebook stuff and the archons to a pride thing)
    3. He's greedy (not unreasonably greedy, granted, but if he thinks there's a good chance of getting more out of an already good deal, he'll take it -- no 'this is good enough for me, thanks' mentality here)
    4. He knows his archons by name (maybe he can see their names, but the way he refers to them by first name seems to suggest that he has a little more attachment to them than the average warlord to his troops. But only a little :P May not mean he's caring - some bosses make it a point to know their employees' names because it boosts morale, not out of any actual interest in that employee's well-being.)

    Anything else?

    -V

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