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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:03 am 
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Jojo came to work with Charlie very recently.

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     Post Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:27 pm 
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    Check out the last panel.

    While it's not absolute - it could be simply justified by the Titan wanting to use the line from The Dark Knight - I'd take this as all but outright confirmation that Charlie is a Stupidworlder, in light of what we've seen in Book 0. It just took me ages to figure it out, but it's right here. "Jillian had never heard the word ‘kill,’ but for some reason she knew what it meant. It struck her immediately as vulgar and wrong."

    It's possible that Charlie simply learned the word from Judy, and was using a "vulgar" term to mock King Slately in the same way as he was choosing to appear in the form of villains. But I don't think it's likely, really. And given everything else we've learned, I'd have to think this is a very big tilt toward the "Charlie is a Stupidworlder" theory, because other than that one wacky coincidence, which is a very thin line to follow, there's no other way he could have learned the word.

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     Post Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:38 pm 
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    Selexor wrote:
    Check out the last panel.

    While it's not absolute - it could be simply justified by the Titan wanting to use the line from The Dark Knight - I'd take this as all but outright confirmation that Charlie is a Stupidworlder, in light of what we've seen in Book 0. It just took me ages to figure it out, but it's right here. "Jillian had never heard the word ‘kill,’ but for some reason she knew what it meant. It struck her immediately as vulgar and wrong."

    It's possible that Charlie simply learned the word from Judy, and was using a "vulgar" term to mock King Slately in the same way as he was choosing to appear in the form of villains. But I don't think it's likely, really. And given everything else we've learned, I'd have to think this is a very big tilt toward the "Charlie is a Stupidworlder" theory, because other than that one wacky coincidence, which is a very thin line to follow, there's no other way he could have learned the word.


    Yes, several other people have made that connection as well. Now that we have confirmed that Judy was from Stupidworld, it increases the likelyhood that Charlie is, because it reinforces the theory that only the Stupidworlders use certain words and terms. But there is also the possibility that Charlie picked the word up from Judy during their lengthy aquantence, and his choosing to use it then was a ploy to shock Fakely with the vulgarity and severity of his conviction to stop Parson. Also, your are right, Rob could have just wanted to use that gag, but he normally doesn't have to resort to casually creating inconsistencies in his plot to make his jokes work.

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     Post Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:58 pm 
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    But Charlie has been there back when Judy was still in Erf and a decent while before Parson so either he has a way to travel back and forth or it's just one of those normal erf parodies

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     Post Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:57 am 
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    1)

    Charlie is not a Stupidworlder. It's the Arkendish that gives him a window into Stupidworld. He's got a permanent, unlimited feed to every single Stupidworld TV show, movie, book, song, website, boardgame, everything. It's rubbed off on him.

    2)

    Charlie is Fated to be defeated by a Stupidworlder, and he's trying to postpone his Fate for as long as he can. He succeeded in convincing Judy not to kill him. He wanted to hire Parson but couldn't. Then he tried to send Parson back and failed. He hasn't attempted to kill Parson outright. He seems to want to avoid a direct confrontation for some reason.

    3)

    Charlie is the Good Guy. When the Arkendish let him find out about Stupidworld boardgames, he realized World Peace is a draw condition that ends the game. Meaning the world itself is going to end if the hippiemancers get what they want. Everything he's done since he Attuned is meant to keep war going on forever. He's trying to save the world.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:33 am 
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    arbo wrote:
    1)

    Charlie is not a Stupidworlder. It's the Arkendish that gives him a window into Stupidworld. He's got a permanent, unlimited feed to every single Stupidworld TV show, movie, book, song, website, boardgame, everything. It's rubbed off on him.

    2)

    Charlie is Fated to be defeated by a Stupidworlder, and he's trying to postpone his Fate for as long as he can. He succeeded in convincing Judy not to kill him. He wanted to hire Parson but couldn't. Then he tried to send Parson back and failed. He hasn't attempted to kill Parson outright. He seems to want to avoid a direct confrontation for some reason.

    3)

    Charlie is the Good Guy. When the Arkendish let him find out about Stupidworld boardgames, he realized World Peace is a draw condition that ends the game. Meaning the world itself is going to end if the hippiemancers get what they want. Everything he's done since he Attuned is meant to keep war going on forever. He's trying to save the world.

    I'm really confused by the way you framed this, as though these are facts to support your argument, when every single thing you just said is raw speculation, and in response to a thread that's over a year old, no less.
    Are you saying that these are the theories you prefer?

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     Post Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:58 am 
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    Alpha the White wrote:
    I'm really confused by the way you framed this, as though these are facts to support your argument, when every single thing you just said is raw speculation, and in response to a thread that's over a year old, no less.
    Are you saying that these are the theories you prefer?


    Yes, these are just my wild "Some Charlie Theories". Sorry it sounded like I was stating facts. It wasn't intentional.

    I bumped into this thread via search. It's old but still reads relevant as a source for speculation about Charlie. One year is not that long when it comes to Erfworld's story advancing, I'm afraid.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:08 pm 
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    arbo wrote:
    One year is not that long when it comes to Erfworld's story advancing, I'm afraid.

    Sadly so.


    As per your theories:

    1. While I prefer the "Charlie is a Stupidworlder" theory, there's enough support for your position that I wouldn't bet quatloo on it. If the "Charlie can see Stupidworld" theory is correct, I think your version is probably right, that he can see our creative content more than actually having a scrying window on Stupidworld.

    2. If this is right, I suspect he wants to avoid a direct confrontation because he's intimately familiar with the ways Fate screws with you. The closer you are to the subjects of the Prediction, the more Fate tends to physically intervene. Charlie has holed himself up in the Erfworld equivalent of Fort Knox, which enforces some distance between him and anyone Fated to kill him. Whether Stupidworlder or native Carnymancer, he'll know that the first rule to circumventing Fate is to control your surroundings, and keep Wildcards away from you (ie, no one with sufficient discretion to betray you, like warlords, and especially no one with a Fate like Jillian or Wanda).

    3. I think this is unlikely, in part because until Parson's arrival there wasn't much sign that World Peace was a danger. While I think it's possible Charlie isn't the complete villain he's been portrayed to be (as the Wizard he was apparently pretty benign), everything we've seen of him so far tells me he's got an active agenda, something he's working toward. Trying to keep war perpetually going is more of a "passive" agenda, where you are simply working to keep things unstable.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 3:05 pm 
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    arbo wrote:
    Charlie is Fated to be defeated by a Stupidworlder, and he's trying to postpone his Fate for as long as he can. He succeeded in convincing Judy not to kill him. He wanted to hire Parson but couldn't. Then he tried to send Parson back and failed. He hasn't attempted to kill Parson outright. He seems to want to avoid a direct confrontation for some reason.
    That makes some sense. It is certainly better than the idea that Parson is Fated to kill Charlie. At least this way it doesn't need to be Parson who kills Charlie and therefore Charlie is justified in trying to get rid of Parson so that the next Stupidworlder can be the one who kills Charlie. Even so, the fact that Parson has proven himself an unpredictable and dangerous foe is more than enough to explain why Charlie is trying to get rid of Parson. It's very risky to leap to the idea that Fate is involved when there is nothing for which Fate is needed to explain.

    arbo wrote:
    Charlie is the Good Guy. When the Arkendish let him find out about Stupidworld boardgames, he realized World Peace is a draw condition that ends the game. Meaning the world itself is going to end if the hippiemancers get what they want. Everything he's done since he Attuned is meant to keep war going on forever. He's trying to save the world.
    That can't be right. Charlie is fighting the only enemy worth fighting as of B0E81. Peace is not an enemy; it's more like an outcome. Jillian's jester was certainly not an agent of peace considering how he was associated with violence. On top of that, why would Charlie keep something like that secret? There could be no harm in telling people that peace is the enemy; most Erfworlders don't care much for peace anyway.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 5:59 pm 
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    Lilwik wrote:
    arbo wrote:
    Charlie is the Good Guy. When the Arkendish let him find out about Stupidworld boardgames, he realized World Peace is a draw condition that ends the game. Meaning the world itself is going to end if the hippiemancers get what they want. Everything he's done since he Attuned is meant to keep war going on forever. He's trying to save the world.
    That can't be right. Charlie is fighting the only enemy worth fighting as of B0E81. Peace is not an enemy; it's more like an outcome. Jillian's jester was certainly not an agent of peace considering how he was associated with violence. On top of that, why would Charlie keep something like that secret? There could be no harm in telling people that peace is the enemy; most Erfworlders don't care much for peace anyway.

    Or maybe the jester was an agent of the titans.

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     Post Posted: Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:36 pm 
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    You know, as I was re-reading Book 1, it occurred to me that there's another explanation for why Charlie can respond to Parson's Stupidworld references. The very first thing an Archon said to Parson in the very first Thinkagram between the two (before Charlie ever used the eyebooks, mind) was that "your mind may be monitored for quality assurance." What if that wasn't just a throw away comment? What if Charlie did exactly that and used the Arkendish to see into Parson's mind enough to pick those concepts up directly. That may even have represented how Charlie knew about the eyebooks to hack them, if everyone else in GW had been too afraid of Charlie to open their mind to him even long enough for a Thinkagram. Maggie did warn about the dangers of Thinkagraming Charlie, after all...

    (Frankly, it would also explain Charlie's eccentricity as soon as he got the Arkendish if it gave him that ability, since the average mind would probably be overwhelmed with getting that much info all at once. Especially since Charlie would have had an actual Stupidworlder to read the mind of at the time he got the Arrkendish, too.)

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:28 pm 
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    Question, i've never got round to reading book 0 or a number of the text only updates, (mainly the book 1 updates not up over at GITP), but AFAIK unless they turned up somewhere in the stuff i haven't read the only hard claim we have that anyone else can produce Archon's is from the decrypted Archon's. We've never seen any actual hard evidence that anyone else can produce them. Could someone clarify if that's accurate or did i miss something in those unread sections?

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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 3:59 am 
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    We know there are cities out there that can produce Archons (but no known sides that can make cities that do, just random cities that do), but that Charlie produces them a lot quicker. Parson found this out from the Decrypted Archons, in one of the Book 2 text updates (from memory).

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     Post Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:13 pm 
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    That's the problem, anything the archons say could be deliberate misinformation. He did ask them about charlies defenses at home and they never mentioned the AAA or rifles so i'd assume they didn't know, besides charlie acted like there was no way Parson could know.

    Which means i'm asking if we've ever had independent confirmation?

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:21 am 
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    Well for one, just because Charlie has all those things that were revealed doesn't mean the Archons knew about them beforehand. They did say he hired Dollamancers to bolster defenses, which could have been all they knew.
    Second, the Decrypted show complete loyalty to Wanda. The Archons hold a lingering "affection" for Charlie, in the sense that they want him to make friends with Wanda, and they look to him as a last resort savior when things go badly ast Spacerock. But under normal cirumstances, we see them being fully honest and loyal to GK/Wanda.

    Finally, there is Word of the Titans on the subject. The units that a side and city pop are a complex combination of Natural Signamancies, and it is technically possible to pop any unit that exists. Charlescomm pops them because the site itself probably has a natural "affinity" for popping them, plus the look of the city is their style, and Charlie has the 'Dish which influences his own signamancy. But in the whole of Erfworld, it is possible and likely that other sides not involved in this conflict do indeed pop Archons.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:54 am 
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    0beron wrote:
    But in the whole of Erfworld, it is possible and likely that other sides not involved in this conflict do indeed pop Archons.

    Though it's likewise possible that Charlie does what he can to ensure the doom of such sides.

    Competition is bad for business, even if it's just local competition.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:44 pm 
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    I think i confused you again, not sure i feel like Jack at the end of book 1 trying to figure out what parts of your reply are connected to which of mine.

    What i meant is that based on what the Archon's didn't tell parson when he asked for a defenses list i don't think they knew about all Charlies toy's. Which means Charlie withheld or even outright lied about some things.

    So the claim that other high level cities could produce Archons may be another of Charlie's "Lies to Archon's."

    Now if there's a WoG about Archon's being a normal producible unit fair enough, but that's what i'm asking, do we have a source on that claim besides the Archon's themselves?

    Archon's just seem a few quantum leaps too good to be normal units IMHO. We've never seen anything as powerful as they are. Of course i'm not certain we've ever seen any other units with the same supposed level 5 city limit so it's hard to be sure.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:48 pm 
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    Carl wrote:
    Archon's just seem a few quantum leaps too good to be normal units IMHO. We've never seen anything as powerful as they are. Of course i'm not certain we've ever seen any other units with the same supposed level 5 city limit so it's hard to be sure.

    Dwagons (and by extension Megalogwiffs) seem to be placed on the same tier as Archons (based on the reactions of Erfworlders to each).

    That would make sense from a signamancy perspective, as we recognize Archons, Dwagons and Megalogwiffs as the Erfworld equivalents of Angels, Dragons and Griffons(supersized griffons), which are each regarded as top-tier fantasy creatures in most games/stories (though I guess coming up with a griffon that can go toe to toe with a dragon requires supersizing it).
    Indeed, from that perspective I'd suggest that there is probably a diametric opposite to the Archons, the Erfworld equivalent to Demons/Devils, who likely have casting abilities as well.

    Granted, using signamancy in discussions of Erfworld fact is sketchy business, but tends to be very effective.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:00 am 
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    Alpha the White wrote:
    Probably a diametric opposite to the Archons, the Erfworld equivalent to Demons/Devils, who likely have casting abilities as well.

    I don't have the source, but hasn't there been talk of Pokedaemons?
    What better demonic, caster-enabled creatures can you think of? :twisted:

    (I think Rob'd get bonus points if Signamancy bonuses to popping them include monochrome towns dominated by arena-like keeps) :D

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 1:42 am 
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    Quote:
    Dwagons (and by extension Megalogwiffs) seem to be placed on the same tier as Archons (based on the reactions of Erfworlders to each).

    That would make sense from a signamancy perspective, as we recognize Archons, Dwagons and Megalogwiffs as the Erfworld equivalents of Angels, Dragons and Griffons(supersized griffons), which are each regarded as top-tier fantasy creatures in most games/stories (though I guess coming up with a griffon that can go toe to toe with a dragon requires supersizing it).
    Indeed, from that perspective I'd suggest that there is probably a diametric opposite to the Archons, the Erfworld equivalent to Demons/Devils, who likely have casting abilities as well.

    Granted, using signamancy in discussions of Erfworld fact is sketchy business, but tends to be very effective.


    I haven't even come close to reading them all but i think one of the sizemore centric book 2 prologues pegs dwagon's as level 3.

    Besides they don't even come close to an archon in capability. The original plan for taking jetstone involved 8 stacks of dwagons with riders and leadership, (and remember both riders and dwagons are getting at least artifact bonus's equivalent to the dish on the Archon's, and Wanda being in hex and in one stack probably takes it even further, equivalent to Charlie being present for Archon's at a guess), to get a guaranteed chance of taking the city which almost certainly has to be easier to take than GK was back when Charlie was menacing it with just 4 stacks of Archon's, which unless Charlie committed his best forces to the job, (something i doubt, he's a bit too canny for that unless he really, really, really, really, really has to), probably weren't as high level as these Dwagons + Riders who've been wreaking the coalition for the last however many turns.

    It seems that 1 stack of Archon's without charlie in Hex or leading is easily worth multiple stacks of Dwagons With Rider's, With Wanda Bonus, and with more levels. That's seriously freaking powerful. I honestly don't think we've seen anything else that individually potent. They just stand out as so far beyond what we've seen anything else capable of doing as to be questionable on their normal units status.

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