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 Post subject: Architecture in Erfworld
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 1:38 pm 
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In the past, I would have assumed that the architecture of an Erf city, even if it is popped by the world-system itself, is based on the taste/preferences or cultural background of a unit—much like Stanley gets a generic "European" breakfast, matching the parallels between the Plaid tribe and Scottish-British-European culture, or as Wanda gets sushi, following the Japanese/Asian influence shown in depictions of Faq and in some of Wanda's sartorial choices. Transylvitian cities seem to be influenced by classical Roman architecture.

The original GK had, in my estimation, two overarching and distinct sets of influences. One was, of course, a generic fantasy-setting stronghold, more a game-like depiction of castellated construction, simplified, a child's idea of a castle. The second influence, in my opinion, is a generic fantasy-setting "evil" fortress, with pits, a demonic-looking desk in the executive office, demonic-looking gates and doorways, and the odd but menacing tower of Efdup.

The reconstructed Gobwin Knob has a far more ambitious and sophisticated design. Witness the inclusion of blockhouses and crenelations: it this because Erf sees a new role for GK and Stanley the Tool or is Erf itself taking ideas from Parson's mind or world? The style and particularly the subtext has changed, and the use of banners and images seems a distinct modernization. Parson sees parallels both to the Gothic style of Westminster Palace ("Big Ben") and to "Chinese Imperial" architecture. The shape of the towers is a clear allusion to the former, and the Asian dragons and curved columns of the executive office show the later.

In addition, the Communist-propaganda-style banners, like the clear references to two great empires of the past, China and Great Britain, seem to be presaging or even all but preordaining GK's fate as an imperial power, one that will dominate its sphere of influence, a true force and not just an upstart power. The new (and improved?) GK is, however, not to Stanley's previous stated or conscious taste; whatever else he expected, I don't think that he was thinking of GK's position as being radically different when he was flying home, of GK as a new superpower given that he didn't know that he would have a massive army and fabulous wealth at his immediate disposal. The appearance of a front gate, suitable less for the "last of the last of the last stands" and more for the fielding of conquering armies (as it now facilitates the movement of heavy and siege units), could be seen as a tacit—but glaring—anticipation and approval of such strategies by Erf itself. "This was a city that was meant to rule other cities. Maybe the world."

We have seen the versatility, wisdom, and power of other magics, particularly the way the Perfect Warlord spell, complemented Parson by providing him with critical information, bonuses, and even creating a bracer that would operate in conjunction with Parson's watch, but the new GK is evidence of sophistication of a significantly greater magnitude.

The new GK fits the current strategic situation, a situation of which Stanley was not fully cognizant when the city was "rebuilt." Erf itself, or its moneymancy mechanics, undoubtedly understands this situation and acted in a very sophisticated manner. More significantly, whatever mechanisms redesigned Erf also showed insight in terms of how the new GK is likely to interact with the rest of Erf, seemingly aware not only of how it will be seen by others but of how it would want to be seen by others. This seems significant to me as it shows how Erf's magic and mechanisms are more sapient and subtle than we might have first thought.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:42 pm 
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    Whatever AI the devs/Titans made to run this thing is insane.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:06 pm 
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    Maldeus wrote:
    Whatever AI the devs/Titans made to run this thing is insane.

    Possibly, but certainly subtle and gifted.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:42 pm 
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    Keep in mind that the first city of Gobwin Knob and Tower of Efdup was built not by Stanley but (presumably) by Saline IV or one of his ancestors. It was built to suit their tastes, preferences, and/or personalities. This new city and tower are built for Stanley, who has a far different worldview than his predecessors. If cities could rebuild themselves to match their rulers without having to be destroyed first, this perhaps is what Gobwin Knob would have looked like when Parson first saw it.

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     Post Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:54 pm 
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    it could also be the combination of the two. and a third element which is that the terrain itself has been altered by the trimancer, making the previous design incompatible to a certain degree.

    to the point what we see may be the combination of wanda maggie and sizemore's collective persoanlities.

    sensible design with straight lines could be maggie's influence, sizemore may have contributed the lakes of fire, and wanda's sense of decoration for interior. the defenses may even have been inspired by parson. the banners to stanley, their combined loyalty to the tool.

    but i do believe it's releavnt to stanley moreso...though i consider stanley to be schizophrenic so i kind of expect any city stanley designs within his head, even subconsciously, to be a jumbled mess.if it was popped based on stanley's mindset i expect Escher style geometry.

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:57 pm 
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    I see no reason why the city would've been modeled after trimancer. They changed the terrain, yes, so the lava is obviously their fault, but why would the city design be based around them?

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     Post Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:14 pm 
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    it was rebuilt and they and parson were the ranking units in attendance.all other units were subordinates at the start of turn one. it may be that all high ranked units contribute to the cities design. if an overlord/royal is not present the design follows the resident warlords/casters designs.

    i know it's presuming alot and a complete stab in the dark. but pretty much every theory on erfitecture will be, so there.

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     Post Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:18 am 
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    Note that though the new GK may have a stronger connection to Stanley as opposed to the old GK, but the new GK banners do run counter to his own preferences.

    As to the influence of other units present in GK while Stanley was away: if this was indeed a factor, then it's not unreasonable to assume that Parson would be the single greatest influence. But, I would hazard to surmise, Parson isn't exactly in the mood to go forth and conquer.

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     Post Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:01 am 
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    but resident casters could contribute their "expertise" as advisors in the construction. eg a dirtamancer may contribute terrain attunement bonus's. resulting in lava pools, i run dry on idea's after that....

    this is why i don't make webcomics.

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     Post Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:25 pm 
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    moose o death wrote:
    this is why i don't make webcomics.

    This is why most of us don't create entire new worlds/realities with radically difference physics.

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     Post Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:58 pm 
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    DevilDan wrote:
    Note that though the new GK may have a stronger connection to Stanley as opposed to the old GK, but the new GK banners do run counter to his own preferences.


    No they don't. He explicitly stated that he liked them, that they were better than the crests royals used.

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     Post Posted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:24 pm 
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    Maldeus wrote:
    DevilDan wrote:
    Note that though the new GK may have a stronger connection to Stanley as opposed to the old GK, but the new GK banners do run counter to his own preferences.


    No they don't. He explicitly stated that he liked them, that they were better than the crests royals used.

    He realizes that after he sees them.

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:58 am 
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    I must say, too, that the old GK has a lot of freaky design elements, such as those zombie-hand lanterns on the wall and the toothed doorways.

    Do captured cities change on the next turn to match their new commanders? Seems possible by Erf standards. How does that relate to the different uniforms that the uncroaked and decrypted sport? Most of us have assumed that this was under Wanda's conscious control, but now we know just how ingenious Erf's systems can be.

    Finally, consider Transylvito's design. Its layout seems to be adjusted quite cleverly to the terrain and to TV's strengths, suggesting that the interplay between a side's leaders, its strategies, and its culture may work on various levels.

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 5:06 am 
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    Could the new GK be more a result of Parson's subconsouse more than anyone elses? The "Stanely" banners seems a typical for Erf, but are real world history to Parson. And the layout seems much better as well. Walls lower but much thicker, towers and other details that Pason would know, and where not seen in the original GK.

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     Post Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:25 am 
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    HandofShadows wrote:
    Could the new GK be more a result of Parson's subconsouse more than anyone elses? The "Stanely" banners seems a typical for Erf, but are real world history to Parson. And the layout seems much better as well. Walls lower but much thicker, towers and other details that Pason would know, and where not seen in the original GK.


    Does that mean that subconscious he wants GK to become an empire? Or that he fears just that? Consider specific details like the gate, which now allows the deployment of heavy units and siege units that cannot traverse the tunnel and the aggressive nature of the propaganda banners.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:13 am 
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    based on my earlier speculations i would agree this is more parsons design than stanley's. and given parson's background in studying warfare that's probably the best case scenario.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:21 am 
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    DevilDan wrote:
    I must say, too, that the old GK has a lot of freaky design elements, such as those zombie-hand lanterns on the wall and the toothed doorways.

    Do captured cities change on the next turn to match their new commanders? Seems possible by Erf standards. How does that relate to the different uniforms that the uncroaked and decrypted sport? Most of us have assumed that this was under Wanda's conscious control, but now we know just how ingenious Erf's systems can be.

    Finally, consider Transylvito's design. Its layout seems to be adjusted quite cleverly to the terrain and to TV's strengths, suggesting that the interplay between a side's leaders, its strategies, and its culture may work on various levels.


    i like your points but this is the chicken and the egg arguemnet really. did tv's natural position protect and nurture the kingdom to develop or did the city alter to match the side and they were always a strong force? questions we wont know unless we were there.

    hell maybe if jillian captures faq, the city will be overhauled for her strengths and suddenly the capital will be able to produce schmukers based on natural stats of the terrain again. we really don't get enough information to make much of these things.

    in fact as a point of contention why do some things pop but others do not...i would assume natural resources could pop as easily as wild units. yet they mined out GK (well assumed they had) surely gems could pop too?

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:45 am 
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    moose o death wrote:
    in fact as a point of contention why do some things pop but others do not...i would assume natural resources could pop as easily as wild units. yet they mined out GK (well assumed they had) surely gems could pop too?

    I think it's likely that they do, but in small amounts and at a low rate like, one or two every twenty turns or slower than that. But of course I'm thinking that they pop in the mountain itself due to internal geological rules of the hex and still requires mining.

    Wild animals Pop out in the wild but they need to be hunted to make use of them as resources, I imagine this in a similar fashion as well as herbs and vegetation popping in unclaimed hexes.

    There's a whole slew of natural processes on Earth that I think Erfworld may well have in its own fashion with it's own rules.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:37 pm 
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    moose o death wrote:
    i like your points but this is the chicken and the egg arguemnet really. did tv's natural position protect and nurture the kingdom to develop or did the city alter to match the side and they were always a strong force? questions we wont know unless we were there.


    The city presumably grew organically as TV prospered as a side. It still seems remarkable that it followed such an unusual pattern, yet one that is fine-tuned to match both the terrain and TV's units, the Goldilocks argument aside.

    moose o death wrote:
    hell maybe if jillian captures faq, the city will be overhauled for her strengths and suddenly the capital will be able to produce schmukers based on natural stats of the terrain again. we really don't get enough information to make much of these things.


    Not sure what you're sayin' here...

    moose o death wrote:
    in fact as a point of contention why do some things pop but others do not...i would assume natural resources could pop as easily as wild units. yet they mined out GK (well assumed they had) surely gems could pop too?


    There are many examples in games of resources that are one-use, like finding treasure chests or bonuses or whatnot.

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     Post Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:13 pm 
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    Besides, you have to have a means of income other then simple war. Because in a world where one side can say 'Crap he's going to wipe me out next turn, spend the entire treasury, we may die but at least he wont earn anything but experience from us.' leaves you with a ruined city and an armies upkeep to pay for.

    So, that is why resource gathering is avaiable, its an essicial component in most turn based and RTS games.

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