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 Post Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:25 am 
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Kreistor wrote:
Abbess is a superior in a convent. Given the context in which it is used, Sizemore complaining that failure to end the war in Erfworld made JAnis' title meaningless, I think Grand Abbie has more to do with a Peace Movement of Casters than a Flower Power title. Abbie doesn't have an ovious association to the "Flower Power" movement, at least that I am aware of. Abbie itself is only a form of Abigail, for all I could find.

I'm uncomfortable with Abbie, especially given the female connotation. Abbot would be the male form of Abbess, and it's got more powerful religious tones that Rob would have to fight through. If you push, I'll add it, but are you really certain you're right?


Wanda uses "Grand Abbie" in direct reference to Flower Power. http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F013.jpg

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:41 am 
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    True. Grand Abbie would appear to be a term for a master-class Flower Powerist, then.

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:57 am 
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    Maldeus wrote:
    True. Grand Abbie would appear to be a term for a master-class Flower Powerist, then.


    That would suggest that an Abbie would be a novice :) ?

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:22 am 
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    raphfrk wrote:
    Maldeus wrote:
    True. Grand Abbie would appear to be a term for a master-class Flower Powerist, then.

    That would suggest that an Abbie would be a novice :) ?

    Ranks make sense.
    Novice: 'Flower Child'
    Skilled: 'Abbie'
    Master: 'Grand Abbie'

    Kreistor wrote:
    Abbie doesn't have an obvious association to the "Flower Power" movement, at least that I am aware of.

    Become enlightened:
    "Personally I always held my flower in a clenched fist." -Abbie Hoffman
    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,957491,00.html

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     Post Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:44 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    Abbess is a superior in a convent. Given the context in which it is used, Sizemore complaining that failure to end the war in Erfworld made JAnis' title meaningless, I think Grand Abbie has more to do with a Peace Movement of Casters than a Flower Power title. Abbie doesn't have an ovious association to the "Flower Power" movement, at least that I am aware of. Abbie itself is only a form of Abigail, for all I could find.

    I'm uncomfortable with Abbie, especially given the female connotation. Abbot would be the male form of Abbess, and it's got more powerful religious tones that Rob would have to fight through. If you push, I'll add it, but are you really certain you're right?


    This is just a speculation thread, I'm not expecting you to update the wiki. It's a theory, and while I will admit I think it makes more sense than some of the theories that get tossed around these boards, I certainly don't think the evidence is strong enough to try and call it even proposed canon.

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     Post Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:26 pm 
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    I'm gonna go with "Mario".

    What? He uses fire flowers...

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     Post Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:23 pm 
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    Interesting discussion. Gotta settle it, though. "Flower Child" would be great, if anyone in Erfworld knew what a child was.

    We're going to go with "Florist."

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     Post Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:14 pm 
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    balder wrote:
    Interesting discussion. Gotta settle it, though. "Flower Child" would be great, if anyone in Erfworld knew what a child was.

    We're going to go with "Florist."


    Would that make a Hat Magician a Haberdasher?

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     Post Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:49 am 
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    Alcazabedabra wrote:
    Would that make a Hat Magician a Haberdasher?


    ... or a "Hatter", though hopefully, not mad :).

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     Post Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:11 pm 
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    [Edit]Well, crud! Here I completely overlook Balder's post! And almost make myself look bad. Okay, I do that regularly anyway, so why stop myself? All this is already in the Wiki anyway (including WoT... wow, guys are fast... take a couple days off...), so goodie gumdrops. Glad to see Grand Abbie is still open for my theorizationing. I'll leave my post as is, just cause I like to hear myself talk to myself.
    [/Edit]


    "You're a Grand Abbie. If peace is impossible, your life is a waste."

    For that to mean Grand Abbie is Flower Power, all FP practitioners must be working towards Peace. I'm not comfortablw with an entire Discipline in Erfworld striving towards peace, even if the Disc's spells are all of a superficially peaceful leaning.

    What we may have here is a movement in the Magic Kingdom towards a peaceful existence for all Erfworld. In that organization, there would be leaders, and that would fit Sizemore's own attitude and his conversation much more accurately, IMO.

    Further, it explains Parson, the Predictamancer, Faq's fall, Stanley's rise, and the entire Battle for Gobwin Knob. SOme of you have seen this theory before. A conspiracy of Casters in MK manipulates the world until it can arrange for a world-breaker to come and end the War. Where did the spell to Summon Parson come from, after all?

    Anyway, conspiracy or not, I don't think there would be many Flower Power practitioners around if they were all peaceful in the manner of Janis. There are Rulers that want to be peaceful (Banhammer), but these are rare. That would make the desirability for a Flower Power practioner rarer. And if it's random what you get... why pay upkeep for such a Caster, no matter how expensive?

    So, no, I don't think Grand Abbie is Flower Power exclusive. Nor even Hippiemancer. For the moment, it's still too open to alternate interpretations.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:36 am 
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    Wanda does imply that whatever a Grand Abbie is, it is adept at using magic to calm conflicts. Possibly Florists are good at stopping wars between two Sides specifically, which would be really useful if, say, you're being attacked by seven different Sides at once, or you're getting beaten badly by another Side and want to end the war before they can finish off your Side completely.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:36 am 
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    Flower Power in Hippiemancy sounds like an AoE, maybe Florist cause flowers to grow in hexes, stopping the auto attack rule, or gives a debuff to the side that attacks first.

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    We're the people sitting around discussing our pet theories based on nomenclature, citing references, discussing ad nauseum while Parson finds out how it works.

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     Post Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:18 am 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    Anyway, conspiracy or not, I don't think there would be many Flower Power practitioners around if they were all peaceful in the manner of Janis. There are Rulers that want to be peaceful (Banhammer), but these are rare. That would make the desirability for a Flower Power practioner rarer. And if it's random what you get... why pay upkeep for such a Caster, no matter how expensive?

    There may not be many rulers who want lasting peace, but every ruler would benefit from having a caster who can push to balance toward peace at times of the ruler's choosing. (Whether the benefit would be enough to be worth the upkeep is another question.)

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     Post Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:19 pm 
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    There are ways to us a Florist to win wars. Predictamancy+Florist+Croakamancer. Predict battles you will win, send Florist to battle you would lose and calm it to prevent loss -- take the tie. Send Croakamancer to battle you will win -- increase size of your forces, re-divert forces to the tied fight, swing the balance in your favour for a second attack.

    But, that doesn't work so well if your Florist is inherently pacificist. Every time you use him.her in that way, you degrade Loyalty. That's why I don't like the idea of an inherently peaceful discipline. I like the idea of inherently peaceful individuals... we see that in Sizemore who is a Dirtamancer. And he obviously respected the inherently peaceful Grand Abbie. And he obviously increasingly disrespects the successful but brutal tactics of Parson.

    The ability to end battles, if used only in losing causes, is extraordinarily powerful. Don't get into your heads I hate the idea of the Discipline itself -- power is power. I do't like the idea of the Discipline demanding attitude adjustment in its Specialists. I don't think every Croakamancer loves her Uncroaked as Wanda does -- it may be the most common attitude, but not the only one. We've only seen one side of Croakamancy... is there a Tails to Wanda's Heads? Are there Croakamancer spells that destroy Uncroaked? The Arknepliers both dusts and raises Uncroaked... it has both sides. Could the Discipline as well?

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     Post Posted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 4:47 pm 
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    Kreistor wrote:
    There are ways to us a Florist to win wars.


    In civilisation, the Great Wall was potentially a great offensive wonder. It meant that any city you captured was not vulnerable to counter attack.

    A Florist could be used in a similar way, once you make a gain, you bring the battle to an end. This allows you secure your gain.

    It also reduces risk, as if you underestimate the enemy's strength, you can bring wars to a close.

    Perhaps florists can be used to render battle impossible in specific hexes, any unit that enters is unable to take actions due to effects.

    They are likely to have spells that affect both friends and foes alike. However, perhaps a higher level florist can focus the effect mainly on the enemy.

    Another possibility is that the are like "crowd control" classes in MMORPGS. These classes have little offensive abilities, but can freeze enemy units so that they are unable to take actions. This can be quite powerful, but only if the rest of the group is capable of taking advantage of it. Also, the effects tend to be fragile. For example, if an enemy takes damage, all crowd control effects on them are removed. This means that the effects are powerful, but only if used correctly.

    Quote:
    The ability to end battles, if used only in losing causes, is extraordinarily powerful. Don't get into your heads I hate the idea of the Discipline itself -- power is power. I do't like the idea of the Discipline demanding attitude adjustment in its Specialists.


    It isn't necessary that a Florist is a pacifist. They could view their discipline as mind control and view the targets with contempt, as as weak willed.

    The effect being to sap an army's will to continue fighting.

    Quote:
    Are there Croakamancer spells that destroy Uncroaked? The Arknepliers both dusts and raises Uncroaked... it has both sides. Could the Discipline as well?


    That sounds reasonable.

    Also, the same question applies to Dirtamancy golems, would Sizemore have something that disrupts enemy golems.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:29 pm 
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    Hippiemancers in the Magic Kingdom have been shown to have a very hippie-esque take on life...Which is kind of obvious, but it comes with a very pacifistic approach to things. This does not mean, however, that casters outside the established culture of the Magic Kingdom conform to casters seen within the Kingdom. Potentially Hippiemancers outside the Kingdom are just the same as any other caster, and some may even regret being Hippiemancers because they want talents that are more directly offensive. A psychopathic Florist. That'd make for an interesting character.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:23 pm 
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    Maldeus wrote:
    Potentially Hippiemancers outside the Kingdom are just the same as any other caster.


    Well, casters likely can have any personality.

    The casters we have seen so far can be split into 2 groups.

    Maggie
    "Carl Sagan"
    Bunny
    Charlie
    Misty
    Sizemore

    and

    Jack
    Wanda
    Janis

    I would say that the first group clearly don't show magic-school aligned personalities.

    The second group do. Janis is the most clear cut.

    It could be argued that we haven't really seen Jack's "real" personality, as he was either linked up or suffering the effects of the link break.

    Quote:
    ... and some may even regret being Hippiemancers because they want talents that are more directly offensive. A psychopathic Florist. That'd make for an interesting character.


    Right, the florist could end up doing something like drugging someone so they are paralysed while having to watch someone/thing they care about being killed/destroyed.

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     Post Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:03 pm 
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    Master-class Florists can summon The Audrey II (Little Shop Of Horrors). :)

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     Post Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:11 am 
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    [quote="MarbitChow]"Personally I always held my flower in a clenched fist." -Abbie Hoffman
    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,957491,00.html[/quote]

    I think MarbitChow has a lock here on the origin of the title "Abbie". It also gives an example of someone who is willing to fight for a hippie mentality. The floramancers could have a on duty/off duty mentality also. "When it's time to fight, I'll fight, for now let me sit and get stoned." This would also explain the Holmes Floramancer since he was a dope fiend when he didn't have any cases.

    Holmes could give the option for a different Floramancer spell: the ability to see through veils with their "hyperfocused altered view of reality."

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     Post Posted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:11 pm 
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    I have updated Janis' page on the Wiki with the Abbie Hoffman reference and quote. (Ni-ice.)

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